Author Topic: Measures against a officer cadet  (Read 43690 times)

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Offline myself.only

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2013, 00:25:11 »
I'm glad that you have avoided making sweeping generalizations.

Guilty.
Yes. I do believe that immaturity is a constant concern when training 19 year olds to lead, and no branch or trade has a secret stash of wise-beyond-their-years 19 year olds. :nod:
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 00:29:02 by myself.only »
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2013, 05:57:40 »
I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.   There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline my72jeep

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2013, 07:30:43 »
And that is how it should work. Good on you.  But more correctly you were the only member of the CF for four years and you supervised the CI's and CVs who had no authority except that which came by way of your direction.  The civilian CO was not in command in the same way a member of the CF is not in command of a cadet corps and as the civilian paid CI as OIC (Officer in Charge) his authority to direct anyone else would be the same as any other civilian operating within DND.  Well done to those retired MWOs who agreed to re-muster in the CF as members of the CIC Branch. 

It might also be worth knowing the the Cadet Service of Canada was absolutely no different in its establishment or place in the Canadian Army than COATS and/or the CIC is today within the CAF.  It recruited from the same pool of talent (a large number of school teachers at one time) along with retired members, former cadets, parents, and anyone else in the community interested in supporting Army Cadets.    There were two courses of instruction the 7 week "Grade A Certificate - Cadet Instructor"  and a 4 week Chief Instructor Course as that was the title given to the senior officer at a Cadet Corps.  The less precise misnomer "Commanding Officer" came with integration.
The Civilian CO had OCDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them. One of them took 3 months to enroll the other took a bit over 5.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 21:55:23 by my72jeep »
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Offline myself.only

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2013, 08:06:13 »
The Civilian CO had CDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them.

I'm sure it worked that way.
But to be honest it sounds more like "command by gentlemen's agreement" and I don't think that would have held up to any serious legal scrutiny if it came down to a grievance / investigation.

As for rural v. urban... while I am from an urban centre, I really don't think it's a decisive factor for staffing... definitely no easy fix just because you're not in the boonies. Corps are still pretty much dependent on local resources and networking. Seems that if the CO knows people with military interests and relatively good health and some free time, the Corps has staff. Possibly spouse or ex-cadets who haven't left town. Either way, unless they come from inside the program it's a matter of "hey I know somebody."

Not surprising of course. Wasn't that long ago that Det sent me a survey asking how many responses we'd seen as a result of the CIC recruitment campaign. Hard to complete when you're laughing so hard.  Responses?  Zero. And the survey was the first evidence any of us had seen of any campaign.
Not sure where / how they thought DND or the League was getting the word out with any energy to earn the term "campaign". And that hasn't changed.
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Offline my72jeep

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2013, 08:54:30 »


As for rural v. urban... while I am from an urban centre, I really don't think it's a decisive factor for staffing... definitely no easy fix just because you're not in the boonies. Corps are still pretty much dependent on local resources and networking. Seems that if the CO knows people with military interests and relatively good health and some free time, the Corps has staff. Possibly spouse or ex-cadets who haven't left town. Either way, unless they come from inside the program it's a matter of "hey I know somebody."


Town of 3000 No Scouts, Guides, Beavers, browines, Why you ask? 10 people got tired of running everything. My town suffers from Volunteer apathy, Parents work 12 hour shifts, if they work. All a youth program to them is free child care or a chance to go to the bar/coffee shop. As for local people with a Military intrest yes had two of them a couple they scared me, he told me about his time as a Green Beret in Nam ( funny his birth date was 1976) and she kept asking when does she get her gun issued.
With a Urban unit you have an influx of new bodies to recruit from if not from other units. My point is in a large Urban center the Book works, but far away from the Det. you may at times need to use the book as a guide, not as bible.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 09:01:19 by my72jeep »
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2013, 09:15:47 »
I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.   There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.


Also, when you look at the CAF hierarchy/Org Chart; who ultimately is in charge of the CAF?  Civilians in Parliament.
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Offline myself.only

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2013, 10:05:54 »
With a Urban unit you have an influx of new bodies to recruit from if not from other units.

I can understand how one might think that, but this hasn't been my experience.
Our most reliable source of potential officers remain the people who have heard of the program: ex-cadets.  So Corps size seems more influential than city/town size and in an urban centre we're hardly the only unit in town so Corps sizes remain fairly modest (40-60) over the years.
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2013, 12:16:58 »
I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.   There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.

I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 12:29:30 by gcclarke »
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline jpjohnsn

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2013, 12:59:06 »
I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.
No, not at all.  I think people are missing something important here though.  The civilians hired a cadet corps are not hired to fill management positions.  The job title isn't civilian employee - it's civilian instructor.  Their job description is in their name.  They are hired to help supplement the training staff by instructing cadets.  Leeway is given for them to fill other spots where uniformed staff is in short supply but they are not hired to replace uniformed staff.   Indeed, if they are filling an establishment position on a corps slate because there isn't enough CIC staff, any warm body in uniform transferring in bumps them out.  It doesn't matter if you were the CDS in your former life, if your corps' cadet RSM retired yesterday and was sworn in today, your contract would be terminated before the ink on their attestation paperwork was dry.

Civilian volunteers have even less standing.  They are specifically engaged to assist uniformed staff.  Having them in charge of a CIC officer - regardless of rank, is like taking a candy-striper at a hospital an making them in charge of a bunch of nurses.

The civvie who is hired to be a supervisor in supply is hired to run supply and all of their duties and responsibilities and who reports to whom is all laid out.  Civilian instructors are hired, in the main, to backfill CIC slots at the corps level.  They are not hired to head sections or be in charge of uniformed staff.  They are not that kind of civilian employee.

My72Jeep's experience is not one that should be an example of what can or should happen at a cadet unit.  That was a unique situation where the unit would have folded otherwise and was only meant to be a temporary situation while the uniform staff was being reestablished.  A regular, healthy, cadet unit is quite another matter.
"Nescire autem quid ante quam natus sis acciderit, id est sempre esse puerum" - "To be ignorant of what occured before you were born is to remain always a child" - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline ArmyDoc

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2013, 17:38:52 »
I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.
Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.

Offline my72jeep

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2013, 17:53:26 »
Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.
Wasn't that the Last Government under the Liberals?
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Offline gwp

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2013, 20:55:01 »
The Civilian CO had CDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them. One of them took 3 months to enroll the other took a bit over 5.
Do you mean Cadet Second Lieutenants (unusual to use cadet officer ranks except in a few remaining school corps) -- or CAF Second Lieutenants?   Perhaps it is just unfortunate short hand for members of the CIC Branch?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 20:59:57 by gwp »

Offline my72jeep

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2013, 21:38:17 »
Do you mean Cadet Second Lieutenants (unusual to use cadet officer ranks except in a few remaining school corps) -- or CAF Second Lieutenants?   Perhaps it is just unfortunate short hand for members of the CIC Branch?

Typo Ocdt/2LT
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2013, 12:28:47 »
Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.


Uhhhh, no, no I did not. I assure you, I was well aware of the org structure at the time. No military perseonnel were in my direct chain of command. There were other military personnel in the organization, but none I reported to, nor any that anyone I reported to reported to. The notion that all military people have a miltiary chain of command is just plain false. There's plenty of counter-examples. Again, my current personal example is as follows: me, civvy, civvy, civvy, civvy (project manager), military (Commodore), civvy (ADM), civvy (DM), minister etc. Now, I've got one CAF member in my chain of command... which leaves the question, who exactly is his military chain of command? Because he doesn't work directly for the CMS, the CDS, etc.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline ArmyDoc

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2013, 22:49:15 »

Uhhhh, no, no I did not. I assure you, I was well aware of the org structure at the time. No military perseonnel were in my direct chain of command. There were other military personnel in the organization, but none I reported to, nor any that anyone I reported to reported to. The notion that all military people have a miltiary chain of command is just plain false. There's plenty of counter-examples. Again, my current personal example is as follows: me, civvy, civvy, civvy, civvy (project manager), military (Commodore), civvy (ADM), civvy (DM), minister etc. Now, I've got one CAF member in my chain of command... which leaves the question, who exactly is his military chain of command? Because he doesn't work directly for the CMS, the CDS, etc.
Well Lt(N), we'll just have to agree to disagree.  If you wear the uniform as an RCN officer, then you have someone in a military CoC that you ultimately report to.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2013, 07:38:53 »
Well Lt(N), we'll just have to agree to disagree.  If you wear the uniform as an RCN officer, then you have someone in a military CoC that you ultimately report to.

Yes and no.  It depends on what you mean by "report to."  There are plenty of examples where military members will never report to another military member in any practical sense.  Thus GC Clarke's comments are "more correct."  Having said that, however, ultimately, the CDS is responsible for the leadership of the CF (says that right in the NDA), so in fact, the CDS, who is a military member, is in all of our Chains of Command. 
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: Measures against a officer cadet
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2013, 16:28:09 »
The most important aspect of the phrase "Chain of Command" is the "chain" part. For someone to truely be considered in your chain of command, you need to be able to clearly demonstrate how ultimately they report to you, perhaps with a number of subordinates in between, or you to them, perhaps with some superiors in between. It's a chain of command because it's a series of single links upwards. No one has more than one immediate superior in the chain of command, otherwise it would be a web of command.

To say that the CDS is in my chain of command because he's responsible for the leadership of the CF sounds like trying to hand-wave away that principle. Dotted lines on an org chart do not a chain of command make.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge