Author Topic: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]  (Read 220963 times)

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Offline ABCD

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2014, 11:18:07 »
Thank you Ayrsayle for your time and input! greatly appreciated :) i will do my best! obviously, just concerned that's all. I'm sure there are lots of others with the same concern or situation.

Thanks again for the info!

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2014, 17:36:17 »
Except those NCOs...you know, Non-Comissioned Officers.

 ;D

(Groan) I knew someone would hit me with that one.  We might yet again give the impression that people can apply to be NCOs!

Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Brasidas

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2014, 09:23:55 »
(Groan) I knew someone would hit me with that one.  We might yet again give the impression that people can apply to be NCOs!

...which we do, for musicians.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/musi/ci-ic/index-eng.asp

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2014, 15:32:44 »
If you are going to point out the technicality (which is not entirely true), we should probably consider the context as well (using the resource you provided):

"After 6 months, Once all required training is complete, you are promoted to the rank of Sergeant, which is the base working rank for musicians in the Regular Force".

"The Canadian forces enrolls accomplished musicians, who often hold performance degrees or diplomas ..." and "All Canadian Forces bands are administered, managed, and directed by the musicians."

A few things stick out (to a non-musician like myself):

- The traditional Officer/NCM relationship within the trade is filled entirely by NCOs at all (functional) levels. A musician needs to be a *skilled* resource prior to enrollment in a way an Infantry Pte is not.
- While the base working rank is Sgt - training still needs to be completed to attain the rank. Much like a DEO Nursing Officer who is already skilled, still needs to complete BMOQ (training) before being promoted to a rank above OCdt.

You can apply with the intention of being whatever rank you want, technically.  You can apply to be a Sgt, but it will be contingent - you are still going to have a period of training before that happens. At least that is what your resource says.




Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Brasidas

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2014, 16:22:26 »
...Much like a DEO Nursing Officer who is already skilled, still needs to complete BMOQ (training) before being promoted to a rank above OCdt.

You can apply with the intention of being whatever rank you want, technically.  You can apply to be a Sgt, but it will be contingent - you are still going to have a period of training before that happens. At least that is what your resource says.

I wish that this was more generally the case. Unfortunately, in the case of reserve officers, there is often no such period of training. You've got a degree and you're sworn in? You're a 2Lt. Plenty of commissioned officers show up on recruit courses without any substantial training.

I've had 2Lt's inspect my QL3 privates' tradecraft on exercise, without their own qualifications, and provide "feedback".

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2014, 19:55:07 »
(Groan) I knew someone would hit me with that one.  We might yet again give the impression that people can apply to be NCOs!

I was just throwing that out there for shytes and giggles. 

Of course, the definition of "Officer" in the QR & Os is specific to Commissioned Officer...so you are actually accurate in what you said.  I was hoping for the 'groan' 'ffs!' reaction  ;D or maybe a  :facepalm:.

"officer" (officier)means
a.a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
b.a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
c.any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; *

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2014, 22:07:04 »
I was just throwing that out there for shytes and giggles. 

Of course, the definition of "Officer" in the QR & Os is specific to Commissioned Officer...so you are actually accurate in what you said.  I was hoping for the 'groan' 'ffs!' reaction  ;D or maybe a  :facepalm:.

"officer" (officier)means
a.a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
b.a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
c.any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; *

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

I really did take your point exactly as you intended (ETIS) - Was thinking of a few WO's who'd be happy to have caught me with that one. (Grins)

I genuinely had no idea regarding the Musician trade, so I looked into it to find out - turns out its not QUITE as easy as applying to be an NCO, even if the path is shorter to get there then most.  My bad for the knee-jerk reaction of assuming you were trying to hit me for a technicality rather then respond to the spirit of the original comment (Brasidas).

The point about reserve officers is fair enough - have seen that happen.  Will keep my comments about it happening to myself.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2014, 22:13:24 »
And ........ back on topic?  ;D
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline ABCD

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2014, 07:37:50 »
Ahhhh little off topic aren't we guys?? loll  :salute:

Offline cryco

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2014, 11:18:08 »
your running training will depend on the fitness of your group. If you all suck at running, they'll make you run more. If your group is pretty good, you'll get more strength or other type of training.
As a fellow 40+ year old with a history of knee issues, strengthen your knees with squats. Start them off easily with stair squats; stand if front of stairs and go up two steps on one foot then back down. Make sure your heel of the lead foot touches to support the weight, don't use your toes only (less strain on the knee).
Then do the same but make like you're about to go down a step or two but don't touch the step, come back up. Be sure to have you but sticking out behind you.
This is a good start to strengthen your legs and knees.

Offline flatlander13

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2014, 13:23:27 »
I would highly caution against suggesting rehab type exercises without 1) being a health care professional trained to do so and 2) after being such a professional, not doing a complete, in-person assessment. I know your intention is to help, but a person can do much more harm than good if they're doing incorrect exercises incorrectly.

Offline cryco

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2014, 16:13:18 »
Excellent point. The suggestions I made are highly dependent on proper form. As such, if you do need to work on your knees, consult a physio, if only for one session.
Unless you are familiar with those exercises, pretend i said nothing.

edit: i reread OP, and his basic starts in a month or two. If he can't do the exercises i suggested without causing himself pain or making things worse, then he's in a world of trouble. They either missed something on his medical or Basic training will be a nightmare for him.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 16:17:46 by cryco »

Offline flatlander13

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2014, 16:45:55 »
My point still stands. Don't suggest things that are out of your scope; you are not a professional in the matter, nor do you know his case well enough to know what type of things he could work on.

To the OP, I've had many people say to me "My buddy has knee pain and his physio gave him exercises 'x, y and z', so I've been doing exercises 'x, y and z', but I haven't been getting better and I have no idea why!". If you want things to work on, and want some knowledge on how to self-manage your symptoms, there's still time! Consult a physio in your local area and be weary of online suggestions. My :2c:

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2014, 16:51:26 »
Except those NCOs...you know, Non-Comissioned Officers.

 ;D

Technically we are non commissioned members or NCMs....all those CWO and below.

CPls and MCPLs are Junior NCOs. Sgts are Senior NCOs, while WOs, MWOs and CWOs are known as Warrant Officers.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2014, 17:29:27 »
Technically we are non commissioned members or NCMs....all those CWO and below.

CPls and MCPLs are Junior NCOs. Sgts are Senior NCOs, while WOs, MWOs and CWOs are known as Warrant Officers.

Yup, all NCOs are NCMs but not all NCMs are NCOs.   :christmas happy:

We've lost that little difference along the way.  Personally I point the finger at the Officer Corps for not using it from the top-down.  One of my pet peeves.

Of course, the definition of "Officer" in the QR & Os is specific to Commissioned Officer...so you are actually accurate in what you said.  I was hoping for the 'groan' 'ffs!' reaction  ;D or maybe a  :facepalm:.

"officer" (officier)means
a.a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
b.a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
c.any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; *

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

Oddly enough, there is no definition of Warrant Officer in QR & O, Vol 1, "Definitions".   :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Pkkes871

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2014, 21:42:37 »
0050E from Halifax as a pilot, swearing in on Jan 13th, heading out on the 17th I believe.

Offline ABCD

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2014, 20:20:01 »
okok!!!!!!!! enough with the CO!!!!!!!!! and the NCO!!!!!! crap i'm looking for serious feedback thanks! and to those of you who are providing feedback related to the post! thank you..

I have gone for x rays and doctor to see what the scoop and its just my age and the joint that is not used to this training.. could be a factor of my feet ( i am using my orthotics more) my hips, my glutes, or weak thigh muscle..all combined contribute to issues with knees. that being said, i am doing exercises(light) to try to correct the problem ex: static squates, core work, hip flexor, stretching etx..

Also, It's not everyone who is a runner nor who is built for running, so i hope to god that i get an instructor that is not a running fanatic :) i spoke to many people and its a luck of the draw.. you dont know what you will get until you get there and start!

thanks again for the info and advice/suggestions   much appreciated!

Offline Brasidas

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2014, 21:30:11 »
As someone who's been injured and re-injured with significant consequences, inform your staff of your situation, go to the MIR when you believe you may be hurt (as opposed to pushing yourself), and keep a can-do attitude without seriously jeopardizing yourself.

First blush says you are not in shape for course, and you shouldn't be going. If professional advice says you're fine, great. If it says you're in trouble, be prepared for a medical RTU.

Besides avoiding getting injured in and of itself, you do not want your physical shape to compromise your ability to complete your course. Going on course and getting medical restrictions such as "no PT, no drill" means you can't perform those actions, even when your course is being evaluated on them as a performance check - no field, for instance, if you're supposed to be going to the range, means to PWT. Which can mean you can't do the PC, which can mean you don't get the course.

If you're on chit, be effective within your abilities and your time. Get your studying in for the PO's that you can while your restricted from practicing for the PO's that you can't. Get help from your instructors and your coursemates in the compressed time for PO's where you're restricted.

Avoid getting hurt. Avoid having to be on chit (by avoiding getting hurt), compromising your ability to complete the course. And recourse if you need to. Getting seriously injured sucks, and its not worth breaking yourself for one course.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 21:53:56 by Brasidas »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2014, 21:45:10 »
okok!!!!!!!! enough with the CO!!!!!!!!! and the NCO!!!!!! crap i'm looking for serious feedback thanks! and to those of you who are providing feedback related to the post! thank you..


Consider if free professional development.   :-*
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline ABCD

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2014, 09:36:38 »
Thanks! I have a few friends who are in AirForce that told me hey! " you are in shape, but it's possible you are just not a runner! and if you need a "chit" because running is causing you PAIN!, THEN GO GET ONE! and don't worry what others think, its your well being" just have a positive attitude and do thing to the best of your ability...

He didn't say that you will be re-coursed because you had restrictions in regards to running..?? is this just an opinion or fact? he seems confident in his opinion. 

whats your opinion on that?

Thanks!

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2014, 10:23:35 »
Is the FORCE test not the only legit test in the CAF?

My fading memory recalls when I went through Basic (in the days of chariots ) there were certain benchmarks a recruit had to achieve before he/she could graduate.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Brasidas

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2014, 10:51:58 »
Thanks! I have a few friends who are in AirForce that told me hey! " you are in shape, but it's possible you are just not a runner! and if you need a "chit" because running is causing you PAIN!, THEN GO GET ONE! and don't worry what others think, its your well being" just have a positive attitude and do thing to the best of your ability...

He didn't say that you will be re-coursed because you had restrictions in regards to running..?? is this just an opinion or fact? he seems confident in his opinion. 

whats your opinion on that?

Thanks!

Short answer, you'll be a target.

Cardio is important for the field. If you can't keep up, you're ineffective. For PT, running generally equals cardio. Staff will identify you as weak, and it will be difficult for them to help you succeed. Try to help them help you by getting cardio and showing effort to prepare for the field.

If you get restrictions against running alone, I suppose that would avoid getting into issues of missing PC's, etc. However, since circuit training, the backbone of PT, is the alternation of exercising in place and cardio, you would be a rather odd man out. From experience, the chit would likely be "PT at your own pace", and you would be left behind by the group or lag behind, babysat by a staff member.

If you manage to get yourself effectively excused from group PT, and you aren't otherwise restricted medically, push your cardio. If you can possibly get to the gym and use an elliptical (negligible impact), do it. Unless you can make it work during the course's PT time, it will be difficult if not impossible. But not having cardio fitness, especially in comparison to your peers, will hurt you badly in the field.

Don't expect to just go to the MIR and get excused from running. You may end up with more restrictions than you intend. That then sets you up for missing PCs, as mentioned earlier.

Things might work out for you, but you're not setting yourself up for success as things are.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2014, 12:42:05 »
Is the FORCE test not the only legit test in the CAF?

My fading memory recalls when I went through Basic (in the days of chariots ) there were certain benchmarks a recruit had to achieve before he/she could graduate.

It's been a few years, but my understanding is the benchmarks of the EXPRES test are gone.  The FORCE test is all that remains to institutionally "assess" fitness.

To Macseh:  Brasidas is completely correct in what a lack of fitness means to a candidate.  In my opinion (and stressing this is my opinion, not fact), an officer who expects to be seen as a leader and respected by the men he leads should be confident in his own ability (PT or otherwise) to meet or exceed what your subordinates will expect of you.  Sadly, the institutional standard has eroded and assuming that these minimums would in any way reflect actual combat situations is dangerous at best.  I completely agree with the idea that if you are injured, you need to seek medical assistance and treatment in order to ensure you are able to meet your obligations - But individuals who join the forces knowingly unfit and incapable of meeting the fitness level of their peers would lead me (and no doubt others) to question their dedication, not to mention ethical and leadership material.   Many people in the CAF are "not runners" - but they also don't fall out of group runs.  They work harder.

"Doing things to the best of your ability" is not just showing up on test day and only then trying hard.  It is about being at a level where you are ready to meet what is unexpectedly thrown at you - something that takes dedication and a willingness to develop your weaknesses.

As Brasidas pointed out - You may or may not succeed (no one on the internet is going to be able to answer that).  Reputations have a way of following you however, long after the course has finished both in the eyes of your peers and in the instructors who taught you.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 12:44:40 by Ayrsayle »
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline ABCD

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2014, 07:36:40 »
Thanks guys for taking the time for your input! Don't get me wrong, I do Pt! I go to gym, I train! that's not the point.. I have NO!!! doubt that i will pass the FORCE test. The Question was and still is a hypothetical one; "How much running is there and what if something happens where you need to have restrictions on the running" that's it.. i understand that it may not be that simple and clear cut, that there may be further restrictions placed on you in that situation. Who knows?

People i talked to said don't make it a bigger issue than what it is. " Wait and see what your platoon leader is like and the kind of PT that they give you" This can vary from what i understand, no platoon has the exact same pt.( within reason) It's dependent on your course leader.

On a side note! I don't get why there is so much emphasis put on the capability of someone being able to run often and for distance? and how this somehow has any correlation with your ethics, morals and willingness to want to lead and succeed? sorry, but that sees a little extreme. My intentions are sound, intact, ethical, and my desire to succeed is stronger than ever before.  Whether or not at my age (40) I have the ability to run every day is in no relation or a reflection of my ethical moral fiber.  :salute:


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMOQ Regular Force 2014 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2014, 08:46:38 »
Just a little side note here to consider re: PT and the Mega.  For someone not in great shape, day to day life at the Mega is or can be a challenge.  Aside from the morning PT sessions with Course staff you are discussing here...

- You aren't allowed to use the elevators (unless you have a medical chit saying so...which means you are injured), therefore you will make multiple trips up and down X sets of stairs every day - you could be on the top floor.

- you will do drill periods.  Yes, they take their toll and I've seen recruits and OCdts injured during this (minor stuff that can catch up over time; sore heels, blisters, sore knee, etc).

- you will do PT with the PSP staff.  You will be running.

- you will march and/or 'double' all over the base to get from Point A to Point B. 

- you will participate in field training such as topo (navigation old-school w/map and compass), obstacle courses and field exercises.  Not sure what its like now, but the one the BOTP folks did was a bit of a go and incorporated the 'apply basic leadership' aspects; you had to do more than just move your carcass around for a few days.

If you are putting together a mental picture where you are moving your body around under its own steam, at various speeds, distances and carrying a variety of very light to moderate kit loads, you are getting an idea of what I'm talking about.

Now, throw in the fact that you'll be breaking in a few pair of combat boots...

Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.