Author Topic: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy  (Read 111987 times)

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Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2014, 12:41:37 »
We can (and do) enforce the rules and follow through with admin and disciplinary measures - granted, some units more than others (not everything will lead to a UDI nor should it in all cases). The tools are certainly in the toolbox. That being said, even with the full force of the CSD and DAODs we have to accept that people will still get into trouble no matter how strong the Command Team and no matter what controls are in place. Even IF we dont allow people ashore at all in foreign ports, there will always incidents - at home. The number of people under some sort of admin or disciplinary process for Impaired driving, drug trafficking and other criminal issues continues unabated. Are we to hold Command Teams responsible for everything, at all times, with no exceptions? If so i cant help but wonder how quickly NSPB files peter out...

I am of the mind that we should continue to support Command Teams when they follow the process(es) as outlined in the References to hold people to account. As it exists today there are many hurdles (AJAG, CMs, DMILC, politics of course) standing in the way of efficient and suitable military justice.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2014, 13:24:38 »
At sea, you were limited to not more than two beer or glasses of wine. You could not consume alcohol 6 hours before a watch (12hrs for aircrew) and were never permitted to be intoxicated.

For certain operational sails (Most CJOC operations), alcohol consumption was not permitted at sea and even in port, in some cases.

Alongside, there were no limits on alcohol consumption, as long as you were not on duty, within published bar hours and did not breach the general CF provisions on drunkeness and misconduct.

So, there have always been perfectly serviceable control measures. As long as they were enforced.

A lot of people never drink at sea as well to start with, aside from some special occasions like banyans etc, and even then, pretty limited.  I think I've had maybe half a dozen beers at sea over two years (with about 15 months away), and that's not atypical.

There was always the option though, and the few times I did, it was to unwind with a few friends over a beer after months of hard work paid off with a deployment that went well.  Things were always wound tighter when operational, but you have to keep in mind that there are weeks of routine straight transits to get from point A to B sometimes where the tempo drops off to normal day to day business.  That kind of allowed people to 'decompress' a bit on board so they were more normalized when you get back home.

There are plenty of existing options in place to deal with anyone that wasn't disciplined and broke the rules in place; if they can't trust the crews to be adults then we probably shouldn't be trusted with billion dollar warships.

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2014, 14:07:34 »
I am of the mind that we should continue to support Command Teams when they follow the process(es) as outlined in the References to hold people to account. As it exists today there are many hurdles (AJAG, CMs, DMILC, politics of course) standing in the way of efficient and suitable military justice.

Yup......but as long as there's no pressure on "Command Teams" to make the effort to jump those hurdles, then we just get the "Oh, he/she [or I] will be posted soon and somebody else's problem."
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2014, 14:49:11 »
I will agree with this- Commanding Officer's hands are often tied by NDHQ staff who will not accept a recommendation to release chronic crap disturbers.

But guess what? Those chronic crap disturbers are not going to be deterred by these new rules, either.

Once again, the innocent vast majority get punished for the sins of the few.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2014, 15:03:17 »
Perhaps we should be taking some of the extra cash being generated from the increased alcohol sales and but it towards port activities, tours etc. Give the sailors something to do if they choose.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2014, 15:25:18 »
The extra cash will inevitably go to the ships funds - so your wish will probably come to fruition Chief

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2014, 15:27:51 »
Perhaps we should be taking some of the extra cash being generated from the increased alcohol sales and but it towards port activities, tours etc. Give the sailors something to do if they choose.

Wouldn't extra money go to PSP and NPF or something?
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2014, 16:09:07 »
Not directly. The ship's fund and all messes onboard a ship are separate and distinct from any base organization.

The only real nexus is that Canex is the warehouse, through which goods are purchased for sale onboard a ship. Their profit potential stands to diminish, if quantities of bulk alcohol purchases from ships decline.

I have never seen a shortage of funds from any mess on any ship that I have been on to support outings and activities off of the ship.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2014, 17:21:49 »
We have the military that Canada, particularly that some politicians and "peaceniks" want:

Toothless and emasculated.
The Air Force has aging aircraft. The Navy has no tankers to supply the fighting ships. Of all three the Army is best off, and we worried about pips and frickin crowns.
Rant over.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 21:58:13 by Jim Seggie »
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Offline MCG

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2014, 17:55:19 »
Wouldn't extra money go to PSP and NPF or something?
A Ship/Unit find is NPP (NPF apparently being a bad word now).  The money gets invested back into goods and services for the crew.

Offline Jed

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2014, 21:18:53 »
We have the military that Canada, particularly that some politicians and "peaceniks" want:

Toothless and emasculated.

Rant over.

Well said.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2014, 21:41:27 »
Why does the Navy needs it's own "conduct" and/or "alcohol" policies?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-0.page

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-7.page

If you step out of line with the above, there is:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-4.page

and

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-2.page

and of course, the CSD, QR & O Vol II, etc.

Instead of reinventing the wheel or trying to make a wheel roll differently than other wheels, why doesn't the RCN just properly employ an already devised system and tools?

I've never sailed, but it sounds to me from previous posts like control measures/directives already were in place.  Why not use the tools at the CofC's disposal to deal with the offenders?  We have the "12 hours bottle to throttle" rule in the flying world; if 1 or 2 crew members decided to party past when they should have, should the RCAF Comd then impose restritions on 'everyone' instead of the CofC using the tools on their belt to deal with the offenders?

Seems to me like this is more about appearance than anything, and a way for the higher echelon of the RCN to protect themselves from stuff that happens at the Captain & ships company level.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2014, 02:22:06 »
Perhaps we should be taking some of the extra cash being generated from the increased alcohol sales and but it towards port activities, tours etc. Give the sailors something to do if they choose.

Sounds like a great idea.

My current employer has a quite firm zero tolerance drug and alcohol policy, we were recently in a shipyard, with fairly free and easy access to alcohol which remained prohibited...

Rather than rely on punitive measures, the employer was fairly proactive, spending a bit of their social budget on diversionary activities... it all worked out quite while... I can't say no one consumed alcohol, but there were no issues with drunkenness, and any of the fighting and other nonsense associated with it...


Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2014, 07:18:14 »
Sounds like a great idea.

My current employer has a quite firm zero tolerance drug and alcohol policy, we were recently in a shipyard, with fairly free and easy access to alcohol which remained prohibited...

Rather than rely on punitive measures, the employer was fairly proactive, spending a bit of their social budget on diversionary activities... it all worked out quite while... I can't say no one consumed alcohol, but there were no issues with drunkenness, and any of the fighting and other nonsense associated with it...

The bigger ships with more personnel and more money generated enjoy a lot more activities for the crew when they typically get into port. Myself being on the KINGSTON Class we do not get anything like that, except if we deploy overseas where there are tours and whatnot arranged for the crew. Picture a boat load of young men and women and let loose in a port, with nothing to do but drink. Not saying people will not drink, but they should have a choice and the option of something interesting to do with their time off.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 07:29:53 by Chief Stoker »
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2014, 09:54:30 »
Sounds like a great idea.

My current employer has a quite firm zero tolerance drug and alcohol policy, we were recently in a shipyard, with fairly free and easy access to alcohol which remained prohibited...

Rather than rely on punitive measures, the employer was fairly proactive, spending a bit of their social budget on diversionary activities... it all worked out quite while... I can't say no one consumed alcohol, but there were no issues with drunkenness, and any of the fighting and other nonsense associated with it...

Even you pointed out that there 'may' have been alcohol consumed, so restrictive measures really are not effective.  Again, it boils down to having the respect towards your troops and treating them like responsible adults, not children who don't know better.  If you want to have responsible people in positions of the CAF, ensure you treat them in a way that they will be responsible for their actions.  Treating them like children is not the way to do it.

One of the worse things the CAF can have is leadership who are "Born Again" or "Reformed"; Alcoholics or Christians or whatever.  They figure that their "weaknesses" are common to all.  Sorry, but punishing the masses for your sins is not a good thing.
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Offline Scott

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2014, 10:34:02 »
To be perfectly clear before I make this statement, I always treated this issue of booze on the boats with indifference.

Now that it's blown up its rather simple, we are speaking about alcohol in a workplace. Think about that. How many other workplaces have this?

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2014, 10:45:56 »
To be perfectly clear before I make this statement, I always treated this issue of booze on the boats with indifference.

Now that it's blown up its rather simple, we are speaking about alcohol in a workplace. Think about that. How many other workplaces have this?

I, very regularly, have a drink with lunch during working hours.  The health benefits of drinking a beer or a glass wine during the day are well documented.  It's sad that the American villainization of alcohol has crept into our military. 


Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2014, 10:54:01 »
To be perfectly clear before I make this statement, I always treated this issue of booze on the boats with indifference.

Now that it's blown up its rather simple, we are speaking about alcohol in a workplace. Think about that. How many other workplaces have this?

Yes Scott but how many workplaces confine hundreds of people in a metal box, a couple of hundred feet long for months on end. I don't drink at sea, but I respect their desire to have a beer after watch as long as its 6 hrs from going on watch.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Scott

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2014, 10:56:26 »
I, very regularly, have a drink with lunch during working hours.  The health benefits of drinking a beer or a glass wine during the day are well documented.  It's sad that the American villainization of alcohol has crept into our military. 

Good for you. Do you work on a vessel at sea? Do you have emergency duties?

Again, how many workplaces, outside of the military, would allow drinking while at work? This isn't villianization of booze, it's common sense. Booze and work don't mesh well. In fact, alcohol doesn't even factor into any risk assessment matrix I have ever seen, and I wonder why that is.

Yes Scott but how many workplaces confine hundreds of people in a metal box, a couple of hundred feet long for months on end. I don't drink at sea, but I respect their desire to have a beer after watch as long as its 6 hrs from going on watch.

Chief, I work offshore. You don't have to explain the hardships to me. Granted, I don't do stretches of months at a time, but I do know how limited the options are for fun. We do not have booze. I cannot imagine having it. I have also experienced emergencies at sea during my hitch and I wouldn't want to have Lloyds Register having to ask if anyone had been drinking. It just doesn't compute. At all.

Edited to insert quotes and remove a disjointed ramble.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 11:21:11 by Scott »
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2014, 11:09:38 »
Good for you. Do you work on a vessel at sea? Do you have emergency duties?

Again, how many workplaces, outside of the military, would allow drinking while at work? This isn't villi animation of booze, it's common sense. Booze and work don't mesh well. In fact, alcohol doesn't even factor into any risk assessment matrix I have ever seen, and I wonder why that is.

Chief, I work offshore. You don't have to explain the hardships to me. Granted, I don't do stretches of months at a time, but I do know how limited the options are for fun. We do not have booze. I cannot imagine having it. I have also experienced emergencies at sea during my hitch and I wouldn't want to have Lloyds Register having to ask if anyone had been drinking. It just doesn't compute. At all.

Yes Scott I do and I have to be ready at a moments notice to rush into a fire, in fact I have more time at sea than most reservists. I don't drink at sea because of that of my position. If we had to look at it and compare it to the civilian side, then yes no drinking at sea would be order. Perhaps if we never had it to begin with, but as you might imagine good or bad this is part of our tradition and culture. Change is hard.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 11:19:18 by Scott »
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Scott

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2014, 11:16:39 »
I'll try a different approach to make my point.

I am a safety guy. It's my job to debate matters like this. Though I've never had to explain the "no booze offshore" thing to anyone, it's just one of those accepted norms.

I was working elsewhere in the world when even near beer was outlawed because someone had a photo taken of him tripping pipe with a Becks in his hand. It wouldn't matter to Greenpeace if it was dealcoholized, the image would have sunk us.

Shell, like many of the companies nowadays, has "life saving rules" Take a look at them here: http://www.shell.ca/en/environment-society/safety-tpkg.html They are based on actual incidents and recorded injuries and fatalities. These are the 12 things that, to Shell, can get you ****ed up if you don't abide by them. They also represent immediate sackable offences for some outfits.

Again, I treated this issue with indifference. I had no issue with it. But now that the decision has been made I have to state that it is simple common sense.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 11:59:35 by Scott »
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2014, 11:22:09 »
I, very regularly, have a drink with lunch during working hours.  The health benefits of drinking a beer or a glass wine during the day are well documented.  It's sad that the American villainization of alcohol has crept into our military.
Absolutely. I took the Alcohol, gambling, other drugs course PSP offers a year or so ago, and the whole course for into a fairly heated debate with the base addictions councilor on how alcohol is a fast track out of the CF now, but if you're doing oxys in your shacks they'll put you through years of rehab. Instead of encouraging responsible use (and correcting those that abuse), we've taken the 1920s approach and painted everyone like an alcoholic that wants to go to TGIT at the mess.

Offline Scott

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2014, 11:23:51 »
Yes Scott I do and I have to be ready at a moments notice to rush into a fire, in fact I have more time at sea than most reservists. I don't drink at sea because of that of my position. If we had to look at it and compare it to the civilian side, then yes no drinking at sea would be order. Perhaps if we never had it to begin with, but as you might imagine good or bad this is part of our tradition and culture. Change is hard.

I am glad that someone with as much time as you've had can agree with me on this point.

On the flip side, I can see how the change would be hard, and not easy to understand for some. I can sympathize with that.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2014, 11:24:03 »

Chief, I work offshore. You don't have to explain the hardships to me. Granted, I don't do stretches of months at a time, but I do know how limited the options are for fun. We do not have booze. I cannot imagine having it.



How long are your shifts off shore?
 

Don't remember if I've brought it up but in Bosnia (  :warstory: ) there was a 2 drink limit per day. I found that placing a limit on people;
1. seemed to prompt a lot of people to make sure to get their 2 drinks a day.  Where someone may or may not really be inclined to drink every day now they were drinking at least 60 drinks a month.
2. it almost challenged some people to try and drink more than 2 drinks a day just to prove they could.



Obviously just hearsay but I've heard enough stories (navy alcohol antics)  that makes me genuinely surprised this hasn't happened sooner.
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