Author Topic: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?  (Read 56213 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2015, 22:19:54 »
I really don't believe they are from Maggie either. As she was a rental. I am guessing she had to be returned as is.

Offline cupper

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 91,015
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,730
  • Nuke 'em 'til they glow, then wait until dark.
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2015, 22:28:48 »
Seems that the Canadian War Museum has heard the story as well.

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/navy/objects_photos_search-e.aspx?section=4-A&id=365&page=15

The Twin 40 was used in quite a few ships post war as well, so they could be the original source.

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/navy/objects_photos_search-e.aspx?section=4-D&id=41&page=1
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 22:31:36 by cupper »
It's hard to win an argument against a smart person, it's damned near impossible against a stupid person.

There is no God, and life is just a myth.

"He who drinks, sleeps. He who sleeps, does not sin. He who does not sin, is holy. Therefore he who drinks, is holy."

Let's Go CAPS!

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,794
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2015, 22:35:52 »
To downshift into UFI mode, it seems to me that the Boffin mounts that I saw, mostly in AD Wing at the  Artillery School in Gagetown, were manufactured circa 1943 somewhere in Saskatchewan. Can anybody confirm or deny?

Jollyjacktar, don't eat all the crow just yet. I may need a couple of plates.

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 175,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,901
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2015, 23:42:55 »
To downshift into UFI mode, it seems to me that the Boffin mounts that I saw, mostly in AD Wing at the  Artillery School in Gagetown, were manufactured circa 1943 somewhere in Saskatchewan. Can anybody confirm or deny?




Difficult to read if Saskatchewan but likely Canada, however the plate is for the mount (not gun) which were originally made for twin 20mm.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/systems/guns/ (not quite midway down the page)
Quote
40mm/56.25 "Boffin" or "Bofin" 
 
Fitted to
 UGANDA / QUEBEC, ONTARIO;  MAGNIFICENT, Tribal (Batch 1 and Batch 2), V, C, some ST. LAURENT class destroyers (ST. LAURENT, SAGUENAY, SKEENA, ASSINIBOINE, and OTTAWA only), PRESTONIAN class frigates, Bay class minesweepers, Porte class gate vessels, KINGSTON class MCDVs, airbases in Europe.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2015, 07:34:14 »
I have mentioned elsewhere that my dad related to me their Bofors were taken away in 44 as they were considered obsolete and were replaced with 20mm Orlekions which they used for the remainder of the war.  He did say, however, that if you turn the Bofors against ground troops you have the biggest machine gun around.  Very effective.  They also used them for demolishing houses too. 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2015, 07:41:04 »
Hazegray is pretty authoritative. They check their facts properly and give their sources.

In any event, I am sure we can all agree that the 40 mm Bofors are the guns the RCN just won't give up. They will be recycled and recycled and recycled because they seem to be the gun that takes a licking and keep on going.

I think they are the Naval equivalent of the famed 2,500 fruit cakes that were ever cooked, that keep being recirculated as gifts in a never ending chain. :)

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2015, 07:43:37 »
For what we use them for, I think they're a damn fine solution.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2015, 07:47:16 »
I have no doubt Somali pirates would agree with you.

(See how I artfully closed the loop with a reference to pirates here ;) )

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2015, 10:47:37 »
My regiment found a new in the box single Bofors without lower mount at Pat bay now at the museum, will have to look at the data plate one of these days. I certainly learned something new so being proven wrong in a informative way is always interesting.

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,025
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2015, 12:44:46 »
When designed as HMS Powerful, the carrier had 40mm gun mounts in the design. When the hull was purchased by the RCN, the 40mm was deleted and twin open turret 3"50 cal was added to standardize ammunition to that of the St Laurent class of ships. When the enclosed turret was adopted for the DDE's, the turret would have obstructed flight deck views for aircraft and the mounts were not changed on the carrier. I believe  they were eventually removed at last refit before decommissioning. I know there were still NSN parts for those mounts in Kalamazoo in the late 80's, even though the twin 3 inch50 had been modified on the DDE/IRE during the 1970's refits.

Living the lean life.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2015, 15:07:45 »
Not quite. The 3"50 were not modified on the DDE/IRE's.

The DDE's (Mackenzie class) were the first built directly with the twin American 3"70 forward and the British twin 3"50  aft. All of them in turrets. Though for reasons unknown, Qu'appelle had twin 3"50 in turrets both forward and aft. Go figure?

The IRE's were originally built as DDE's with twin 3"50's in turrets forward and aft, but in the refits to turn them into IRE's (1968 to 1972), the after twin 3"50 turrets were removed and the forward ones were replaced by the twin 3"70 guns.

Some of those 3"50 that were removed ended up as "bow chasers" on the Protecteur class vessels.

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2015, 01:28:51 »
The 3"70 is British and teh 3"50 is American. ;D

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2015, 07:20:25 »
Your right. My bad - Had brain cramp.

That's why the 70's were more complex, but shot better :D .

Offline drunknsubmrnr

  • Semper in Excreto
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 13,025
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 557
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2015, 15:57:31 »
Qu'appelle had a 3"/50 forward because there weren't enough 3"/70's after the school got their mount.

From what I saw on Awesome Warship Saskatchewan the 3"/70 shot great for about 3 rounds and then a shear pin was.....sheared. Then there was an hours stoppage while the NWTs hunted down and replaced the pin and got off another few rounds. Yukon seemed to do very well with steel "war-issue" shear pins though....I think she was able to shoot her mags empty on her decommissioning cruise.

Offline misratah500

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 122
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2015, 19:46:16 »
I have some good info on the 40mm with regards to life left on them, but I think it's OPSEC. Not sure, with these old dinosaurs.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2015, 19:39:53 »
speaking of the 3" 50, a good video on them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICifnf63lCs&t=552

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2015, 20:23:56 »
Interesting rocket ships of the same era in combat off the Vietnamese coast.  From the same video thread.

http://youtu.be/9U0Mex36J_4

Offline my72jeep

  • It is the duty of all canadians to be prepared to defend thier country
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 35,090
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2015, 20:48:29 »
Don't be too hard on yourself JJ. You may note from my first post on the subject that I too mentioned Bonnie as a source of bofors 40 mm. I can tell you that the lore around the Navy has always been that we were fighting with Bonnie's old guns, not maggies'. So there is a definite long standing urban legend around those guns in any event.
Don't feel bad we were told the airfield defense guns in Lahr and Baden were off the Bonni also.
MA Davidson CD
Wawa,Ont.
Army.ca coin #53

Offline Chief Engineer

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 740,742
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,976
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2015, 16:38:50 »
So the 40MM has been officially divested from the Kingston Class as its become not supportable anymore. There is a plan to have the Canadian-made Nanuk RWS installed on the platform as a replacement. The install will be pretty much the same as the Oto Melara Remote Controlled Heavy Machine Gun (RCHMG) trials done on HMCS Summerside in 2006.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Online kratz

    Spring is still hiding under the covers.

  • Float, Move, Fight
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 261,403
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,281
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2015, 17:18:24 »
Thank you for the update.  :christmas happy:
Quote from: Pipe *General Call*
"Tanning Stations on the flight deck"


Remember, this site is unofficial and privately owned. The site benefits from the presence of current members willing to answer questions.

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 170,725
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,043
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2015, 21:56:51 »
So the 40MM has been officially divested from the Kingston Class as its become not supportable anymore. There is a plan to have the Canadian-made Nanuk RWS installed on the platform as a replacement. The install will be pretty much the same as the Oto Melara Remote Controlled Heavy Machine Gun (RCHMG) trials done on HMCS Summerside in 2006.

Where will the 40mm go?  Museums, etc? 

Also, in the RCHMG setup, where is it controlled from?
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,794
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2015, 22:07:58 »
As one who fired a very few rounds from the Boffin when I was the Chief Instructor in Gunnery at the School of Artillery, I recall reading the available manuals circa 1974. The guns were ex-RCN. but other than that? The Bonaventure had some fitted, but I can't confirm the link. I think some other ships - minesweepers or frigates? - also had them, but that might be an illusion from four decades past.

Offline Chief Engineer

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 740,742
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,976
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2015, 22:21:40 »
Where will the 40mm go?  Museums, etc? 

Also, in the RCHMG setup, where is it controlled from?

Saw several shrink wrapped and on a flatbed going somewhere, probably to be stored again I would suppose. If it stays true to what the original RCHMG trial on Summerside in 2006, the control station will be left of the helmsman console with its own chair.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 888
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2016, 19:01:49 »
There goes my WDO qualification... lol... not that I need it anyway with me having left the darkside and going CSE.  Guess they will be re-writing the course, only be a weekend now if you don't need the range days or the 40mm qual.  50 cal WDO for reg force is literally - "here's the book, read it", but the PRes guys need all the pyro and ammo management quals to be DECKO which was also part of the course.  Wouldn't be surprised if it morphed into a 25mm course at the same location for the AOPs.  Probably the exact same control commands, though the reports would be different.

So the 40MM has been officially divested from the Kingston Class as its become not supportable anymore. There is a plan to have the Canadian-made Nanuk RWS installed on the platform as a replacement. The install will be pretty much the same as the Oto Melara Remote Controlled Heavy Machine Gun (RCHMG) trials done on HMCS Summerside in 2006.

Nanuk RWS was a half decent piece of kit, at least it was in the hot and dry of Afghanistan when I was there.   Now I guess we see how it does in the wet, cold and salty.  Should be alright if its on the bridge, and the mount stays nice and oiled up.  There were a few problems in the beginning with "run on guns" IIRC but they were fixed rapidly, for about $700+ per incident ;).   There were only a few that were operating 50 cals in theatre when I was there (2 RG-31's) and most used the C-6.  But from what I was told by the operators there really wasn't much of a performance difference at the end of the day.  Only issue was when there was a stoppage you would sometimes have to pop out the top hatch to fix it, then drop back down to continue firing.  Might be a bit awkward sprinting up to the foc'sle to deal with that unless corrected that challenge somehow.

I was hoping for the 25mm that's going on the AOPs to go on the MCDV as well but I suppose that was a bit of a fantasy.  It's odd to me that a warship has less fire-power than a LAV 3 but the role it plays. Three 50 cals are good enough to scare fishermen, shoot floating mines, and provide self defence security I suppose.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2016, 19:37:11 »
The way things are going, I can see where this is headed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w