Author Topic: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too  (Read 53925 times)

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jollyjacktar

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Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« on: June 10, 2015, 15:06:09 »
Not that I am bitching, and would have included this in the other thread Loach has locked.  But, on the buttons and bows scene, I heard today some scuttlebutt that Salt and Peppers are on the way out along with the new changes proposed to the NCD's.  Some savings to be found there with cutting back on the orders of dress.  NCD's or DEU as the situation dictates.  Less BS.  I like it.














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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2015, 15:29:16 »
Not that I am bitching, and would have included this in the other thread Loach has locked.  But, on the buttons and bows scene, I heard today some scuttlebutt that Salt and Peppers are on the way out along with the new changes proposed to the NCD's.  Some savings to be found there with cutting back on the orders of dress.  NCD's or DEU as the situation dictates.  Less BS.  I like it.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2015, 15:41:48 »
Salt and pepper: Can stand either for the summer DEU, namely DEU black pants (pepper) with the summer short sleeves white shirt (salt), or its shipboard "bastardized" version when on duty, composed of the (work dress in the old days) dark NCD pants worn with the DEU white short sleeve shirt, to give the impression from affar that you are wearing your full DEU's.

I suspect its this second version that will disappear. You will always wear the proper DEU (at the brow in foreign harbour for instance) or the NCD even if you have brow duty in home harbour.

I can't see them get rid of the summer DEU because we wear it too often as office dress in the Navy and nobody wants to work in long sleeve shirt with tie in the summer. :)

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2015, 15:47:51 »
From what I gather, what is proposed to go is the # 3 Service Dress order.  Office and shipboard dress will be NCD, unless you're required to be wearing DEU.  But as I say, it's all scuttlebutt at the moment.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 15:55:00 »
Salt and pepper: Can stand either for the summer DEU, namely DEU black pants (pepper) with the summer short sleeves white shirt (salt), or its shipboard "bastardized" version when on duty, composed of the (work dress in the old days) dark NCD pants worn with the DEU white short sleeve shirt, to give the impression from affar that you are wearing your full DEU's.
Thanks for the education.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 16:23:07 »
So we would just wear whites for summer service dress ?
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jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 16:36:44 »
Whites weren't mentioned, just Salt and Peppers.  Having the Whites around still would not equate to much savings, if that is a driving force with this suggestion, as you'd still have short sleeve shirts as well as the trousers and shoes.   :dunno: 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 16:59:36 »
I can't see much savings at all in this, what difference would two or three short sleeves shirt (are they still around $10.00 each?) make in the whole deal. On the other hand, we would be losing a most useful uniform, at least for PO's and above (I can see some limited sense in this for the seamen).

I have regularly attended in summer at various briefings in foreign states for joint exercises or to prepare when I was acting as observer on other NATO nation vessels, etc. I would stick out like a sore thumb if I showed up in either my NCD or in full DEU. And the full whites would not be much better. I would be there with officers from other nations wearing either their Khakis or their own version of the salt & pepper. Anything else would detract.

On top of that, I always felt we (the Navy) were amongst the last "reasonable" personnel at NDHQ for not abusing the "operational" look attitude of HQ office workers. You wear your service dress for daily office work and it looks professional while at the same time conveying the message that , well, you are STAFF and your job is to do the paperwork in support of the people actually out there carrying the operations.

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 17:02:49 »
I thought Salt and Peppers (DEU pants and white short sleeve dress shirt) with peaked cap or beret looked very professional, equivalent to Army summer dress no? *someone can correct me if a beret is not worn in that rig.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 17:13:00 »
GN. Yes, yes it is.  I hate my peak cap and enjoy wearing my beret.

OGBD, I honestly don't know if there's any legs to this thought, and if there is, what the driving force behind it is for that matter.  Someone, somewhere, seems to have it in their heads they "need" to change what is with all this talk of new rank insignia, changes to the NCD jackets etc.  Usually, where there's smoke there's fire.  Someone seems to be testing the waters as it appears to me.

I have a love/hate relationship with Salt and Peppers.  There's times I love wearing it and many others when I don't.  I understand in Ottawa as  P2 I have the option of NCD as my daily dress.  I'll be going with that.

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 17:51:17 »
Sea Div must of been pissed when they brought NCD`s with creases sewn in >:D

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 18:18:53 »
The next gen trousers are supposed to have them removed as well.  Back to ironing.  ;)

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 18:51:03 »
From my last chat, all operational staff will revert to NCDs and in fact Task Group staff in 201 here in Halifax has already done so. I am pretty sure this is NOT a $$$ saving issue as a full NCD ensemble costs about $250-about 4 times as much as a short sleeve shirt and pair of slacks. Fleet Chief is back Monday and I will see if there are any 'legs' to this.

Pat
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2015, 10:18:44 »
Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor


Offline Underway

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 11:49:51 »
Read the last summary of the Dress Committee (or whatever its called).  Removal of 3B's was not on there.  Most of the talk centred around (from memory, so there might be errors in this list):

-modifications to the pocket placement on the NCD's, adding a new pocket to the pants lower down, making pockets bigger to fit in anti-flash etc...
-removal of the stitched pants seam as its very irritating to kneel on,
-putting the Naval Ensign on the shoulder of the NCD's for better navy recognition,  labelling on the NCD that just says NAVY (opposite nametag I think, this one is sketch in my memory)
-have the Sea Service Insignia first level go to 180 days, vice 1 year
-adding trade badges to NCD's (I think, can't remember this one clearly),
-a rejection of getting a camo design for the Navy because the chiefs think that being mistaken for a bus driver, pilot, commissionaire, security guard or anything but a sailor is preferable to being recognized as military  :facepalm: (sorry personal opinion snuck in there, my bad)
-moving rank to front chest (like CADPAT) for some uniforms because backpacks and other gear cover the shoulders obscuring rank
-reorg who is on the committee for dress (removal of Fleet Chiefs IIRC and adding NavRes Chief to match navy's new organizational structure or somesuch)

There was some other stuff as well that I can't remember.  Just to emphasize that a lot of this stuff was just discussion in the minutes of the meeting, not necessarily actionable or actioned.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2015, 11:54:08 »
Until anything comes to pass, it's all scuttlebutt.   True.  The seam issue is correct.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2015, 12:22:33 »
Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor



Careful that kind of idea will get you defaulters around here ;)

-a rejection of getting a camo design for the Navy because the chiefs think that being mistaken for a bus driver, pilot, commissionaire, security guard or anything but a sailor is preferable to being recognized as military  :facepalm: (sorry personal opinion snuck in there, my bad)

I never understood why some people think we need to be "camed up" in the Navy.  You want to look like a sailor ?  I point you too Colin P's post. 
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2015, 12:46:27 »
...or its shipboard "bastardized" version when on duty, composed of the (work dress in the old days) dark NCD pants worn with the DEU white short sleeve shirt, to give the impression from affar that you are wearing your full DEU's.

I don't know how long it's been since you stood duty, but in the 4 years I've been in Halifax, I've never seen this. OOD always wears full NCDs, as he is required to respond to Fires and Floods.
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2015, 13:10:42 »
. . .  and you look like a sailor


Sorry, it's just too easy.
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2015, 14:03:46 »
I don't know how long it's been since you stood duty, but in the 4 years I've been in Halifax, I've never seen this. OOD always wears full NCDs, as he is required to respond to Fires and Floods.

As someone who's stood OOD in the past few months, I can confirm this. The only exception is in some foreign ports, where brow staff/OOD need to be in DEU. In that case, there's always a fully qualified and NCD-wearing 2/3 OOD standing by for DC.

The only place I've seen the half-NCD half-DEU look is in some Wardrooms, where the XO wants to try and keep "Red Sea Rig" around without upsetting too many people by making them change their pants and shoes.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2015, 14:09:28 »
Sorry, it's just too easy.

I was hoping nobody noticed that lol ;)
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2015, 15:20:17 »
Careful that kind of idea will get you defaulters around here ;)

I never understood why some people think we need to be "camed up" in the Navy.  You want to look like a sailor ?  I point you too Colin P's post.

May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 17:39:10 by Underway »

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2015, 16:10:43 »
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies Due as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating. 

I have a bunch of friends/colleagues in the RAN and they rant that even in their uniform, they don't get recognized as sailors despite having the Naval ensign, trade badge, rank badge, ship's badge (not crest) and RAN badge on it.  The RAAF did a switch to blue "camouflage" for branding purposes as well, but I'd say most members of the public would only know that they're "not Army".

Of course, then there are the old jokes about the new USN uniform and whether they're supposed to be camouflaged against the sea, or just purposely trying to lose people during Man Overboard, etc.
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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2015, 16:12:39 »
May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern.

Consider the procurement gong show in the US military driven by the desire of each branch to have its own unique cam pattern.  Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory.  If RCN pers are working in an environment where they need actual camouflage (and not just a working dress that can be satisfied by overalls) then they should use the CF issued CADPAT.

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Re: Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2015, 16:25:15 »
Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT
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