Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 383555 times)

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Online Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2000 on: October 16, 2017, 09:16:38 »
With all the negatives listed below, sounds like this government for sure will offer to purchase the Australian C-18's (subject to US approval)!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-australia-fighter-jets-1.4354326

Plan to buy used fighter jets from Australia far from straightforward, experts say - Murray Brewster, CBC News - Oct 16, 2017
'If the government of the U.S. didn't want the aircraft to be sold, it would be very difficult to get them'

Canada's plan to shop for used Australian fighter jets rather than buy new Boeing Super Hornets may backfire, according to defence experts, because the U.S. government will ultimately have a say on whether a deal proceeds.

Even though the FA-18 Hornets are nearly three decades old, require regular corrosion maintenance and are nearing obsolescence, their proposed resale would still require Washington's approval because they are advanced warplanes, originally manufactured in the U.S., a former Royal Australian Air Force officer told CBC News.

"I imagine all of it is going for a fair bargain price," said Peter Layton, a fellow at Griffith University in South East Queensland, Australia, who was a reserve force group captain.

Few customers exist for Australia's used warplanes, and selling to Canada would be an easier sale than most, because the Pentagon would not require all sensitive technology to be stripped out of the aircraft.

But in the context of Canada's current tit-for-tat aerospace trade dispute with the U.S., another defence expert said no one should expect the Trump administration to do Canada any favours in light of the heated rhetoric surrounding Boeing.

"There's a lot of things they could do just within the executive authority to simply be unhelpful," said Dave Perry, an analyst at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. "I don't know how far they can go, but if the government of the United States didn't want the aircraft to be sold, it would be very difficult to get them."

Corrosion complaints

Australia's defence materiel group produced a scathing report in 2012 noting that the country's FA-18s were rapidly running out of airframe life and required bigger and bigger slices of the maintenance budget.

"The incidence of discovery of airframe corrosion in the Hornet fleet is increasing, and the annual cost of corrosion‐related repairs has increased significantly," said the report, which Layton said was considered "too critical" by the defence establishment.

The Trudeau government has been using the threat of buying used FA-18s from Australia as a bargaining chip in its wider trade dispute with Washington.

On the eve of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's meeting with U.S. President Donald Trump last week, Public Services and Procurement revealed the Liberal government had sent a letter to Australia expressing interest in buying some of its old fighters.

The department had been talking with Chicago-based Boeing about buying 18 new Super Hornets, but those negotiations were suspended after the giant U.S. aircraft-maker filed a trade complaint against Bombardier over passenger jet sales.

The U.S. Commerce Department intends to impose nearly 300 per cent tariff and anti-dumping duties on the Montreal-based manufacturer's CSeries jet.

Trudeau said Canada no longer has an intention of doing business with Boeing.

Limited to uncontested airspace

The used Australian jets are approximately the same age and configuration as Canada's CF-18s, which the Liberals insist must be supplemented if the air force is to meet its Norad and NATO commitments at the same time.

How well those Australian jets would solve that problem is an open question.

Layton said Canada would likely get only five to seven years' service out of each warplane.

Advances in both fighter jet development and anti-aircraft defences among potential enemies and adversaries mean that Canada's air force, in a just a few years, would be limited to low-intensity conflicts in uncontested skies.

"I think beyond 2020, under most circumstances, you would be very cautious about deploying the aircraft into airspace where it would be likely to meet an opponent that has modern fighter aircraft," said Layton, who has written extensively about air combat issues.

"And by 2025, operating in contested airspace will be very dangerous with the classic Hornet fleet as it is now."

Canada's Liberal government said its moves are intended only as a stopgap until it can replace the entire fleet of CF-18s.

Full competition?

Last spring, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan promised that open competition would be launched in the immediate aftermath of the new defence policy review, which was released in June.

Public Services and Procurement would only say "preparatory work" for that tender is still underway.

Perry, the defence analyst, said no one has been able to convincingly explain why it is on the back burner.

"I don't understand why moving ahead with the competition isn't the best overall solution," he said. "You would avoid any of the difficulties of introducing an interim fleet."

Perry has long been a critic of the notion of a stopgap fleet, but recently noted that buying used was better than buying new Super Hornets.

Although the Australian FA-18s are almost identical to the CF-18s, there are some differences, notably in software, air-to-surface weapons and the life-extension work that has been carried out on them.

Only 10 fighters in the Australian fleet have received the kind of extensive airframe reinforcement that Canada paid for in its jets.

"I could conceive of your air force using them as an expensive training aircraft," said Layton.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2001 on: October 16, 2017, 11:37:16 »
The 2012 Oz audit:

Quote
Management of Australia's Air Combat Capability — F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet Fleet Upgrades and Sustainment
https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/management-australias-air-combat-capability-%E2%80%94-fa-18-hornet-and-super-hornet

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2002 on: November 09, 2017, 14:12:05 »
Airbus pitching cooperation with Bombardier on Eurofighter for our competition--same maybe from Dassault with Rafale (note Indian Air Force deal):

Quote
Airbus open to further Bombardier cooperation as it eyes Canadian fighter jet deal
Airbus could cooperate further with Bombardier beyond a recent venture in the CSeries, if its fighter jet is permitted to compete in a Canadian military procurement

Airbus SE could cooperate further with Bombardier Inc beyond a recent venture in the CSeries jets, if its fighter jet is permitted to compete in a Canadian military procurement, and its partners agree, an executive said on Wednesday.

Canada said last year it will launch an open competition to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets and a request for proposal for the open competition is expected in 2019.

Dirk Hoke, chief executive of Airbus Defence and Space, said the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet could be an option for further collaboration with Bombardier, although he did not specify further.

“We will definitely also look at additional potential further cooperation with Bombardier beyond just the CSeries,” Hoke told Reuters on the sidelines of an Ottawa aerospace conference, adding that he was “very optimistic and positive about us entering this competition.”..
http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/airbus-open-to-further-bombardier-cooperation-as-it-eyes-canadian-fighter-jet-deal

Indian angle:

Quote
After 36 jets, Rafale to push for Make In India
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/oct/17/after-36-jets-rafale-to-push-for-make-in-india-1676772.html

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Online AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2003 on: November 09, 2017, 14:28:41 »
Should we not buy American, I'd be all in for the Rafale but understand that Typhoon would make a good political choice with Airbus and Bombardier, etc.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2004 on: November 09, 2017, 14:35:06 »
" .....a good political choice....." What more can the taxpayers of Canada ask for?
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2005 on: November 09, 2017, 15:50:33 »
Should we not buy American, I'd be all in for the Rafale but understand that Typhoon would make a good political choice with Airbus and Bombardier, etc.

The Spanish put their Typhoons to the test recently https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/typhoons-hit-the-target

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2006 on: November 09, 2017, 16:40:18 »
The Spanish put their Typhoons to the test recently https://world.eurofighter.com/articles/typhoons-hit-the-target
I do think the Typhoon is an excellent aircraft but it does not have Active Cancellation technology and I don't believe it can target aircraft directly behind it. What it does have is the bigger radar verses all the advantages Rafale will have after the current upgrades are complete, which includes the ability to disappear from radar.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:35:29 by AlexanderM »

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2007 on: November 11, 2017, 13:27:05 »
On ne peut qu'espérer--title not exactly accurate given F-35 only one possibility (unless?):

Quote
DUBAI: Canada expects fifth-generation fighter contract by 2021

The Royal Canadian Air Force expects to release a new request for proposals for its fifth-generation fighter competition by 2019 with a contract award by 2021, the RCAF’s commander says this week.

In June, Canada proposed 88 new fighters for the RCAF , an increase from the previous government’s plan to purchase 65 jets to replace the aging CF-18 fleet, but did not outline a timeline for the RFP.

Canada launched an open competition for the CF-18 replacement last summer following a campaign promise from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Liberal party to step away from the controversial Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The government is considering all options, including the F-35, although a Boeing F/A-18 acquisition appears unlikely in the wake of the airframer's commercial dispute with Bombardier.

RCAF commander Lt Gen Michael Hood would not comment directly on whether Boeing’s Super Hornet is still under consideration in the competition. This autumn the government announced it had suspended direct engagement with Boeing.

“I would say my personal relationship is limited to the support of our ongoing Boeing products and those normal day-to-day discussions we would have with them,” Hood tells FlightGlobal at the annual Dubai International Air Chiefs Conference.

Meanwhile, Canada is considering options for an interim CF-18 replacement. The government had previously proposed buying 18 new Super Hornets, but the commercial dispute has pushed the government to change course and examine Canada’s used Boeing F/A-18A/B Hornets. Last month, Canada submitted a formal declaration known as an expression of interest to Australia. Canada operates a similar Hornet configuration and both the CF-18s and Australian F/A-18A/Bs began operating within a few years of each other. Canada also bought the intellectual property on the jet and already uses L-3 for F/A-18 sustainment, Hood adds.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dubai-canada-expects-fifth-generation-fighter-cont-443137/

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2008 on: November 11, 2017, 14:32:20 »
And from Defense News, headline a bit misleading I think:

Quote
Canadian air chief looks to speed up up fighter buy

...U.S. defense experts worry that Canada could be driven into the arms of a European fighter manufacturer, thus eroding Canada’s long tradition of flying U.S. jets — a move that increases the militaries’ interoperability.

However, Hood stated that interoperability with the United States continues to be “the most important thing to me as command of the Royal Canadian Air Force.”

“Every step less of interoperability is one step less of effectiveness, so interoperability is right at the top of the list beside operational advantage,” he said. “I want the young men and women that are going to be flying fighters into harm’s way to have an operational advantage, and that will be key to me in the competition that’s coming.”

That need for interoperability with the U.S. Air Force does not diminish the chances of European fighters, he added.
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dubai-air-show/2017/11/11/canadian-air-chief-the-sooner-the-better-on-fighter-acquisition/

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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2009 on: November 11, 2017, 18:48:30 »
So they're still forging ahead with the 'interim fighter' purchase even after moving up the new RFP for the larger replacement program?

That seems odd....

Bargaining chip in NAFTA Negotiations?
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2010 on: November 11, 2017, 21:43:15 »
Bargaining chip in NAFTA Negotiations?
Some sort of maintenance of full interoperability measure if the bulk of the fleet goes to a non-US source?

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2011 on: November 13, 2017, 13:06:13 »
RAF pipes up on interoperability:

Quote
DUBAI: RAF talks up Typhoon interoperability with F-35

As interest in fifth-generation fighters builds in the UAE, a top Royal Air Force officer explained at the show how the Eurofighter Typhoon is already demonstrating how a non-stealthy fighter can integrate with the Lockheed Martin F-35 in contested airspace.

The Typhoon is already equipped to send and receive data with the F-35s on Link 16, a NATO-standard datalink. But Link-16 uses an omnidirectional antenna that is not compatible with the radio – Harris's Multi-function Advanced Data Link (MADL) – that the F-35 uses to communicate with other F-35s while in stealth mode inside contested airspace.

But the Typhoon has already demonstrated the capability to transmit and receive data with the F-35 in training flights and exercises in the USA, says Air Vice-Marshall Gerry Mayhew, air officer commanding for the RAF’s No 1 Group.

“This is not something we’re dreaming of. This is something we’re doing,” Mayhew says. “We’re already operating fourth- and fifth-gen fighters in exercises in training. This is also using new systems as well as the Link 16 systems.”

Asked to elaborate on the new systems that allow the Typhoon to transmit and receive data with F-35s flying in communications stealth mode, Mayhew declined, saying he could not talk about the technology.

But the public record offers clues about the solution that is referred to by Mayhew. Last February, Northrop Grumman announced that the RAF held an event in the Mojave desert in California called Exercise High Rider.

The exercise included an demonstration called Babel Fish III. An F-35 transmitted data from MADL to a Northrop-designed airborne gateway system, which translated the message into a waveform that could be interpreted by the Link 16 radio on board an RAF GR.4 Tornado.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dubai-raf-talks-up-typhoon-interoperability-with-f-443219/

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2012 on: November 18, 2017, 14:48:08 »
For Sunday Nov. 19.  WETA is Washington D.C. public television--DNTV done by DefenseNews.  Tweet:
https://twitter.com/defense_news/status/931875460283273216

Quote
@defense_news

The commander of Canada's Air Force joins Defense News Weekly to discuss his country’s search for a new fighter aircraft, tomorrow at 10:30 a.m. on WETA. #DNTV
8:23 AM - 18 Nov 2017


Video should be put up at Defense News TV webpage:
defensenews.com/video/dntv/

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« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 17:00:28 by MarkOttawa »
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2013 on: November 18, 2017, 14:53:58 »
New RCAF fightger--Airbus head says Canada owes them one for Bombardier CSeries:

Quote
The Enders game for Bombardier

Airbus CEO Tom Enders explains his company jumping at the chance to take over the C Series project – and what future role Canada could have
...
This partnership "is good for Canada, it's good for us...It also opens new opportunities for Bombardier, as it taps into Airbus's global supply chain, and the Canadian government as it seeks to modernize the military...

Airbus has made Canada its fifth home country, ranking it alongside Airbus co-founders France, Germany, Spain and Britain.

For Mr. Enders, that designation carries real meaning and expectation. "You expect your home country to at least take a very fair view of your own industry, and if that industry's competitive with what it's offering for your needs, that you favour your industry. That is what home country is about," he says.

It's a not-too-subtle message to Canadian politicians that Airbus expects to be considered whenever the government thinks about buying airplanes, jet fighters, military transport planes or even satellites.

Already, Airbus is preparing plans to submit a proposal for its Typhoon fighter jet now that the Canadian government has signalled it won't buy fighters from Boeing as long as the trade dispute continues. "There is a broad array of topics where I think we can engage," he says. "I'm sure we can do more if the will on both sides is there, and on the Airbus side, clearly that is the case."...
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/why-airbus-ceo-tom-enders-decided-to-take-over-bombardiers-cseries/article37019891/

Over to you, Justin and Quebec.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2014 on: Today at 10:48:44 »
If the Liberals win the next election and I won't say that is a sure bet, then they will have to do something and I expect the RCAF is going to given the best fighter that politics can buy.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2015 on: Today at 11:33:11 »
If the Liberals win the next election and I won't say that is a sure bet, then they will have to do something and I expect the RCAF is going to given the best fighter that politics can buy.
There is no question this is going to be driven by politics. I'm thinking that because Boeing forced our hand in the Bombardier/Airbus merger that there will now be no reconciliation with Boeing, as that ship has sailed. So now it's an issue of will it be the F-35 or will it be the Rafale or the Typhoon? It now looks like NAFTA talks have stalled over auto parts, etc and the problem there is that Trump is like a dog who can't give up a bone and I just don't see an agreement coming and this will likely cause us to step back from the US. So then if we have to chose between the Rafale and Typhoon one would hope we get to pick the best fighter for Canada but the politics will have to be sorted out.

At the moment the politics favor the Typhoon because of Airbus, but doesn't Airbus get access to very desirable technology from Bombardier? So if this is the case and if France made the Spectra/Active Cancellation technology available for the new fighter they are going to develop perhaps something could be worked out. Also, Canada could give Airbus an exclusive on the Canadian commercial carrier market. I'm thinking there's very likely a deal to be made there.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2016 on: Today at 13:15:09 »
Irving can't build airplanes, can they?   :orly:
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2017 on: Today at 13:46:03 »
don't....give them ideas....... :tsktsk:

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2018 on: Today at 13:54:13 »
RCAF head LGEN Hood on Defense News TV Nov. 19 at 04:20 on new fighter(s)--doesn't say anything new or very interesting:
https://www.defensenews.com/video/2017/11/19/defense-news-weekly-full-episode-november-19-2017/

Same stuff but with less detail than at this earlier story:
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dubai-air-show/2017/11/11/canadian-air-chief-the-sooner-the-better-on-fighter-acquisition/

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« Last Edit: Today at 13:59:42 by MarkOttawa »
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