Author Topic: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay  (Read 103558 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 186,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,168
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #350 on: September 29, 2018, 18:28:29 »
Chris

I'm not taking issue with your opinions at the end of the post. Those are yours and fairly held. I do take issue with the article itself and the issues that it raises specifically about its suggestion that FCO30/1048 considered the public stupid and advocated a program of misdirection and concealment of the facts.

The article does not provide a link to the paper itself so that a reader can check for himself but fortunately it's not that hard to find online. I've located one that is an "annotated" version. The text in italics, is the actual paper and the unitalicised text are the annotated comments. I found this one useful because one could read the criticism directly with the actual text and form one's own conclusions.

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/FCOsovereignty2.pdf

I don't think that there is any doubt that the writers were advocating in favour of union with the EEC and were actively laying out both the benefits as well as the shortcomings, principally the reduction/loss of sovereignty and that EEC institutions would take predominance over domestic ones. At the time that's what the whole issue was; to build a strong and powerful central community which would be greater, stronger, richer than it's independent parts.

In my view that is what a ministerial paper should do in advising the various ministers of the facts, options, risks etc.

Along the way it points out that there are perceptions and anxieties within the public that must be understood and addressed. Specifically the paper says:

Quote
Before entry it is important to deal squarely with the anxieties about British
power and influence (masquerading under the term sovereignty) by presenting the choice
between the effect of entry and on Britain’s power and influence in a rapidly changing world

The article interprets this as "cover-up". I think that's a major and unfair leap.

Similarly, the article talks about:

Quote
The patronising tone deepens further as the writer suggests Britain is populated by xenophobes who have a large ‘mistrust of foreigners.’ He bizarrely quotes novelist Nancy Mitford saying: “Nancy Mitford’s Uncle Matthew was not alone in considering that: “Abroad is hell and foreigners are fiends.”

This comes from para 15(i) of the paper which starts:

Quote
We are all deeply conscious through tradition, upbringing and education of the distinctive
fact of being British. Given our island position and long territorial and national integrity,
the traditional relative freedom from comprehensive foreign, especially European, alliances
and entanglements, this national consciousness may well be stronger than that of most
nations. We are all deeply conscious through tradition, upbringing and education of the distinctive
fact of being British. Given our island position and long territorial and national integrity,
the traditional relative freedom from comprehensive foreign, especially European, alliances
and entanglements, this national consciousness may well be stronger than that of most
nations.

Let's call a spade a spade. The Brits were, and continue, to be xenophobes. All you need to do is read the Daily Mail and you'll see articles that look back at WWII and Nazis every second day. They just can't let go of the fact that the continent is populated by Krauts, Frogs, Dagos and various other groups of strangers. The paper is neither patronizing nor bizarre; it states a fact in subtle tones and cautions the ministers to be aware of that underlying public opinion.

Like I said before. We may all differ on whether or not the EU (or the EEC at the time) is a good thing, and there are  fair positions to take on both side of that issue. I think that this article, however, takes the clear fact that the authors of the paper were in favour of union and advising the ministers of the various upside and downside issues and spins that into some fanciful yarn that there was a massive bureaucratic conspiracy to hide the truth from the public in order to implement their plan.

Read the paper for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

 :cheers:

Edited to fix my crappy grammar
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 14:09:02 by FJAG »
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #351 on: September 30, 2018, 12:57:58 »
Thank you for posting the link.  Quite expositive.

The issue continues to be one of power and how to influence it.  Quebec and Alberta already have issues internally with people contending over whether or not their provincial governments are reflective of the needs and wants of the residents.  Those are communities of millions.  They have problems with Ottawa acting in ways often seen at odds with their wants and needs and felt to be ignoring them on the basis of serving the needs and wants of the larger community.   It is an open debate as to whether or not the needs and wants are being fairly understood by the government of the day or whether or not the needs and wants are revealed truths that surpass the understanding of mere mortals. 

The larger the community the less the opportunity for the individual to influence either the community or its leadership.  The larger the community the greater the opportunity for the leadership to indulge its sense of infallibility and act according to the leaderships sense of needs and wants - and we are left with relying on the benevolence of the leadership.   Which is where we started.

I, for one, uniquely, as an individual, am not prepared to put my faith in the benevolence of a single, unique, individual purporting to act infallibly in the name of 7 billion single, unique, individuals.

We have ample historical examples going back 12,000 years of failed attempts to establish empire both internally and externally.

I believe that Quebec has been somewhat less than happy with such efforts both pre- and post-1867.   

Parliamentary democracy, within cultural and geographic limits, at least has the advantage of tamping down internal discord for a couple of centuries and doing no worse externally than more absolutist neighbours.

Yours in Xenophobia.   :cheers:
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 186,185
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,168
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #352 on: September 30, 2018, 14:41:12 »
Thank you for posting the link.  Quite expositive.

The issue continues to be one of power and how to influence it.  Quebec and Alberta already have issues internally with people contending over whether or not their provincial governments are reflective of the needs and wants of the residents.  Those are communities of millions.  They have problems with Ottawa acting in ways often seen at odds with their wants and needs and felt to be ignoring them on the basis of serving the needs and wants of the larger community.   It is an open debate as to whether or not the needs and wants are being fairly understood by the government of the day or whether or not the needs and wants are revealed truths that surpass the understanding of mere mortals. 

The larger the community the less the opportunity for the individual to influence either the community or its leadership.  The larger the community the greater the opportunity for the leadership to indulge its sense of infallibility and act according to the leaderships sense of needs and wants - and we are left with relying on the benevolence of the leadership.   Which is where we started.

I, for one, uniquely, as an individual, am not prepared to put my faith in the benevolence of a single, unique, individual purporting to act infallibly in the name of 7 billion single, unique, individuals.

We have ample historical examples going back 12,000 years of failed attempts to establish empire both internally and externally.

I believe that Quebec has been somewhat less than happy with such efforts both pre- and post-1867.   

Parliamentary democracy, within cultural and geographic limits, at least has the advantage of tamping down internal discord for a couple of centuries and doing no worse externally than more absolutist neighbours.

Yours in Xenophobia.   :cheers:

I'm a bit of a xenophobe myself and not really a fan of the EU as structured. I sometimes wonder about how a big city like Toronto or New York can function and the answer is quite simple: by one neighbourhood at a time. The trick is finding exactly the right division of responsibilities between what goes on at the local level and what happens at the ever expanding higher regional etc levels.

IMHO that's where the EU fails. It throws too much power at the central government in dealing with issues that are much better dealt with at the local level. I put this down to the fact that much of the EU functions under a civil code system. Civil codes, again IMHO, tend towards being micromanagement systems. I think laws work best when they restrict or forbid specific unwanted acts and leave individuals and companies to operate freely and innovatively everywhere else rather than setting out a formula or process that must be followed by everyone in all cases. The US offers an interesting contrast having a common law basis but a codified statute system. More importantly it is a system of dual sovereignty as between the federal and states governments as may be limited by it's constitution.

I spent quite a few years working with individuals from the EU and noted that there was a tremendous difference in attitude to many things between the northern more Scandinavian/Germanic (including the UK) nations and the southern Latin (Roman influenced) countries like France, Spain, Italy etc. I would think it would be very difficult to create any system that would create consensus amongst such disparate cultures.

I expect that the debates as to which is the superior system are be endless.

 :cheers:

Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #353 on: September 30, 2018, 15:10:14 »
I believe that debates over the superiority of systems are endless and that "finding exactly the right division of responsibilities" is a mugs game.

It is precisely for those reasons that I oppose the centralization of authority and commend local democracy regardless of whether or not local democracy produces a system under which I might wish to live.

With centralization I am left with two options.  I must obey or fight.  With dispersed local democracy the odds are that I can find a location where I can live with convivial values.

The only trick required is toleration of cultural norms - no matter how ugly they may seem to others.

Edit:

One of the more interesting parts of the Canadian Experiment was the settling of the Prairies.  The Governments of the Day encouraged "ghettoization" as some would deride it today.  They encouraged the transposition of whole communities to create like-minded communities on the Prairies.  Hungarians in Esterhazy.  Ukrainians in Vegreville.  French in Gravelbourg.  Icelanders in Gimli. Dutch. Scots. Catholic. Orthodox. Mennonites. Hutterites. Mormons. Reformers.

This encouraged the local, as a "support group", with a common culture, rule book, language, church and sense of community while the various communities figured out how to work with the neighbouring communities and with their new national governments.

Canada was intentionally a patchwork of independent communities:  An exportable model.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 15:20:13 by Chris Pook »
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #354 on: December 03, 2018, 12:39:33 »
I believe I have found the answer.  Why is the government of the UK having such a hard time with Brexit?

Quote
But the Prime Minister will struggle to paint much of a picture given that the Government is still trying to nail down the nuts and bolts.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/03/theresa-may-keeps-giving-mps-reasons-vote-against-brexit-deal/

Painting a picture with nuts, bolts and a hammer is not a strategy that immediately commends itself to me
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #355 on: December 12, 2018, 14:19:47 »
A thought about Chaos.

The governing party is responsible for finding solutions.
The opposition is responsible for critiquing those solutions.

At the next election the governing party will be held to account by the public for the quality of those solutions.

The public will then decide whether to allow the the governing party to continue governing.
The leader of the opposition may then have an opportunity to take over governing.

Now, both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbin have parties that are split over Brexit.
This is a problem for Theresa as she tries to find solutions.
This is not a problem for Jeremy.  All he has to do is continue to oppose her solutions.

Jeremy is in the position where all he has to do is not interfere with an enemy intent on destroying itself.

Meanwhile Brexit.

Jeremy is on record as wanting to leave the EU.  40 years in parliament and nary a kind word.
Theresa in on record as wanting the remain.

The public is split with not much of an advantage either way.  No particular electoral advantage for either party.  Half the population will blame the governing party regardless of the outcome.

The opposition will throw away its electoral advantage if it ends up supporting whatever deal the governing party proclaims.  Including no deal.

In the event of no deal the governing party gets the blame and the opposing party gets the opportunity.

And Jeremy Corbin?  He gets to leave the EU, as he has wanted for the last 40 years, put two fingers up to the establishment, wreck the Tories,and be free from EU interference while he imposes his brand of socialism on the UK.

My take?  Jeremy Corbin will do what it takes to ensure "no deal" and that Theresa and the Tories take the blame.

As a Brexiteer - pluses and minuses. 

Britain survived Cromwell, Harold Wilson and Clement Atlee.  Might have to dig deep again.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 70,965
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,433
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #356 on: January 29, 2019, 19:54:37 »
Only in England are these titles imaginable together--PM Theresa May says:

Quote
...
But I believe that with a mandate from this House and supported by the Attorney General, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU, I can secure such a change in advance of our departure from the EU...
https://www.independent.ie/ca/business/brexit/it-is-not-renegotiable-theresa-may-under-fire-as-she-bids-to-drop-the-brexit-backstop-37762125.html#

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #357 on: March 14, 2019, 18:27:16 »
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/page/3/

An absolutely fascinating link - 74 pages of opinion polls ( I got to page 2 and a bit) on every question of the day pertaining to Brexit, deals, immigration, tariffs and what matters - up to March 11.

A great antidote to the headlines and all those drunken, sleepless MPs at Westminster.  25% are scared of leaving. 25% are determined to leave. 25% don't know and 25% don't care.

The sun will rise in the morning as usual and bills will have to be paid.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #358 on: March 27, 2019, 10:47:38 »
I have been refraining from commenting on this democratic exercise which, in the main, is still being conducted by the rules (although, to be honest while the match is still mainly on the pitch it is looking more and more like an Old Firm Cup final at Ibrox with a bent Ref).   I am reduced to following events with both amusement and bemusement because I don't really expect an outcome on this one any more. No more than I expect a resolution of the Basque, Provencale and Catalonian problems - Or Scotti Tcheuchters vs Covenanting Picts. 

However - this really caught my attention:

Quote
In an attack on MEPs critical of a long Brexit delay, Mr Tusk urged them to still consider British Remainers as "Europeans".

He said: "You cannot betray the 6 million people who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 or the increasing majority who want to remain in the EU, they may feel that they are not sufficiently represented by the UK parliament but they must feel they are sufficiently represented by you in this chamber because they are Europeans."

For those of you not keeping up - there is an on-line petition (accessible by anybody from any country) with some 6 million names calling for Brexit to be cancelled.   Just to be clear some 17 million voted to leave, 16 voted to stay, another 16 or so didn't care enough to get out of bed, and a bunch more weren't eligible to vote.

What gets me about President Tusk's comment is that he is from Poland. 

What would be his reaction if he saw the following in the daily news:

Quote
In an attack on MEPs critical of a long Brexit delay, Mr Tusk Putin urged them the Russian Parliament to still consider British Remainers Communists in Poland as "Europeans  Russians".

He said: "You cannot betray the 6 million people who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 or the increasing majority who want to remain in the EU those who want to rejoin with Mother Russia, they may feel that they are not sufficiently represented by the UK Polish and EU parliament(s) but they must feel they are sufficiently represented by you in this chamber because they are Europeans  Russians."

As I have said elsewhere - it is easy to become cynical when you hear rhetoric like this.

The good news is that none of this really matters.  We're still here despite thousands of years of the same rhetoric and worse actions.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Baden Guy

    Full Member.

  • Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing.
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 47,617
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,860
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #359 on: March 27, 2019, 11:23:31 »
98 Reasons To Stay In The EU: Benefits Of Membership For The UK

https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/   :2c:


Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #360 on: March 27, 2019, 11:36:55 »
Quote
Philip Cross: The state’s increasing intrusion into our lives in the name of control and structure is stifling vitality
Feeling alive is what many people want more than the material comforts promised by government and proffered by corporations



https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/philip-cross-the-states-increasing-intrusion-into-our-lives-in-the-name-of-control-and-structure-is-stifling-vitality?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1mcUQD4sfC-I-fHwgPVMlCzOiMzKZGEPenmnpdMbGfxlpIoheaHj5b2po#Echobox=1553692688
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #361 on: March 27, 2019, 12:37:56 »
Londoners at work - above

Londoners at home - below





Londoners on holiday - 1947




"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Online Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 205,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,656
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Brexit Vote: 51.9% leave, 48.1% stay
« Reply #362 on: March 27, 2019, 12:42:34 »
And Londoners on holiday today

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"