Author Topic: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia  (Read 199548 times)

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Offline Brihard

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2016, 20:40:22 »
Alright. Well, we'll just name it Op Superfly and make sure the medal is suitably phallic.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2016, 20:52:43 »
We need to answer the important question; will clerks get the same danger pay as infantry?
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2016, 21:29:20 »
We need to answer the important question; will clerks get the same danger pay as infantry?

And how long will the line at Tim Horton's will be?!

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2016, 22:01:43 »
You don't get a gong for Maple Resolve, so why would you get one for NATO Resolve - I mean, really, six month working vacation away from Pet, Edmonton, The Traz or Kingston.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2016, 22:23:44 »
I suspect the Operational Service Medal (Expedition) will be retroactively issued for all Op REASSURANCE deployments as well as for the upcoming participation in this NATO Brigade.  It fits the criteria of the award and, with the 30 day threshold, will be better applicable than the 6 month requirement for the SSM(NATO).

I think it is entirely fair and worthwhile in issuing this.  Operational service decorations are not issued for any specific degree of risk - I'd venture that a majority of the UN/NATO medals worn by service members involve tours without getting shot at (I have one myself).  This deployment represents fulfilling an important service in support of our national policies, just as much as a Cyprus or 4 CMBG tour (both which were appropriately recognized with medals).  As well, I think it is good for morale and recognition for our soldiers in light of the lack of deployments since 2014 - as a buddy of mine said, we're better off without a whole bunch of guys looking like bus drivers in nice suits.  The way some of you talk, you'd only be happy if nobody had a medal unless they were shot at or blown up.

As well, I think this mission will be a good opportunity for the Army.  I can speak from a position of authority in saying that a good percentage of soldiers releasing in the last few years is due to lack of opportunity to deploy somewhere and see something beyond Wainwright or Petawawa.  A six month deployment allowing soldiers to participate in some excellent NATO training opportunities while also seeing a different part of the world will be good for our troops.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2016, 22:57:29 »
I suspect the Operational Service Medal (Expedition) will be retroactively issued for all Op REASSURANCE deployments as well as for the upcoming participation in this NATO Brigade.  It fits the criteria of the award and, with the 30 day threshold, will be better applicable than the 6 month requirement for the SSM(NATO).

I think it is entirely fair and worthwhile in issuing this.  Operational service decorations are not issued for any specific degree of risk - I'd venture that a majority of the UN/NATO medals worn by service members involve tours without getting shot at (I have one myself).  This deployment represents fulfilling an important service in support of our national policies, just as much as a Cyprus or 4 CMBG tour (both which were appropriately recognized with medals).  As well, I think it is good for morale and recognition for our soldiers in light of the lack of deployments since 2014 - as a buddy of mine said, we're better off without a whole bunch of guys looking like bus drivers in nice suits.  The way some of you talk, you'd only be happy if nobody had a medal unless they were shot at or blown up.

As well, I think this mission will be a good opportunity for the Army.  I can speak from a position of authority in saying that a good percentage of soldiers releasing in the last few years is due to lack of opportunity to deploy somewhere and see something beyond Wainwright or Petawawa.  A six month deployment allowing soldiers to participate in some excellent NATO training opportunities while also seeing a different part of the world will be good for our troops.

Nope, I think that this is an excellent opportunity for the army- arguably, moreso than the latter part of Afghanistan, as we desperately need to reconstitute our capacity for conventional warfare. We got too used to a third rate enemy. I don't actually have an issue with a medal being awarded, hence my pondering of the SSM-Nato. It fits essentially the same purpose and risks as our erstwhile NATO commitments. I have a very modest rack that I earned, and am not competitive over it. Obviously the combat arms cannot refrain from dick measuring, so there will me medal angst over this. Whether it's SSM-Nato, or OSM-Exp, or whatever, all good with me.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2016, 00:06:36 »
I think that it is a good mission. We show our resolve to support our NATO allies and our troops have the chance to train and serve away from home  in a realistic multi-national environment. I hope that the troops who conduct this mission get some form of recognition such as the SSM NATO or some other medal.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2016, 00:34:44 »
I suspect the Operational Service Medal (Expedition) will be retroactively issued for all Op REASSURANCE deployments as well as for the upcoming participation in this NATO Brigade.  It fits the criteria of the award and, with the 30 day threshold, will be better applicable than the 6 month requirement for the SSM(NATO).

I'd trade all of those medals for some good Medium Range LLAD and a battery of MLRS.
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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2016, 01:05:37 »
I suspect the Operational Service Medal (Expedition) will be retroactively issued for all Op REASSURANCE deployments as well as for the upcoming participation in this NATO Brigade.  It fits the criteria of the award and, with the 30 day threshold, will be better applicable than the 6 month requirement for the SSM(NATO).

I think it is entirely fair and worthwhile in issuing this.  Operational service decorations are not issued for any specific degree of risk - I'd venture that a majority of the UN/NATO medals worn by service members involve tours without getting shot at (I have one myself).  This deployment represents fulfilling an important service in support of our national policies, just as much as a Cyprus or 4 CMBG tour (both which were appropriately recognized with medals).  As well, I think it is good for morale and recognition for our soldiers in light of the lack of deployments since 2014 - as a buddy of mine said, we're better off without a whole bunch of guys looking like bus drivers in nice suits.  The way some of you talk, you'd only be happy if nobody had a medal unless they were shot at or blown up.

As well, I think this mission will be a good opportunity for the Army.  I can speak from a position of authority in saying that a good percentage of soldiers releasing in the last few years is due to lack of opportunity to deploy somewhere and see something beyond Wainwright or Petawawa.  A six month deployment allowing soldiers to participate in some excellent NATO training opportunities while also seeing a different part of the world will be good for our troops.
Wholeheartedly concur.


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Offline Castus

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2016, 03:13:34 »
I'd trade all of those medals for some good Medium Range LLAD and a battery of MLRS.

Throw some ATGM to the battalions and brigades and I'm in for this.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2016, 09:27:09 »
The OSM(E) is being issued for other operations, how would you distinguish between them for someone who might end up with being on multiple ops?  I have seen someone with two Article 5 ribbons side by side.  Very American.  Would a bar to accompany the medal not be a good idea to show where you've been etc?

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2016, 10:06:14 »
OSM-EXP has about 5 missions listed, none of them related. Who cares if we added another?

That being said, the system is designed to be able to add theatre ribbons, so if this is a long term mission, create the OSM-NATO using the same medal and new ribbon to denote the service to MAPLE RESOLVE.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2016, 10:13:38 »
I'd trade all of those medals for some good Medium Range LLAD and a battery of MLRS.

I am sure that everybody would do that, but our lack of air defence and MLRS has nothing to do with medals.

I do believe that air defence is high on the priority list right now for the army. For a battalion-sized element, though, things like integral anti-armour and mortars are more pressing. Air defence and long range rockets should be provided by the higher formation. 
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2016, 10:27:25 »
For a battalion-sized element, though, things like integral anti-armour and mortars are more pressing.
Maybe build, say, an integral company-sized element....that could provide some basic engineering functions, maybe some anti-armour, a bit of indirect fire support, hell, maybe throw some recce and sniper folks in there.....

Nah, that would never work.  Madness.   ;)


/tangent

Offline George Wallace

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2016, 10:29:24 »
I am curious, why you don't consider the SSM-NATO to be adequate?  Is it just not to be associated with the old "Cold Warriors", or that you don't feel it has any similarity to what 4 CMBG, the Nato Standing Fleet and ACE Mobile Forces did?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2016, 10:30:38 »
Maybe build, say, an integral company-sized element....that could provide some basic engineering functions, maybe some anti-armour, a bit of indirect fire support, hell, maybe throw some recce and sniper folks in there.....

Nah, that would never work.  Madness.   ;)


/tangent


But....That would mean that we would have to bring back the M2......AGAIN.   [:D
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2016, 10:42:59 »
I am curious, why you don't consider the SSM-NATO to be adequate?  Is it just not to be associated with the old "Cold Warriors", or that you don't feel it has any similarity to what 4 CMBG, the Nato Standing Fleet and ACE Mobile Forces did?

This sounds about right (from SSM-NATO description):

Quote
4. NATO

(Authorized by PC 2006-0810)

NATO service between 1951 and 2004:

An aggregate of 180 days of honourable service within the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's (NATO) area of responsibility between 1 January 1951 and 19 October 2004. Qualifying service is service while posted to a NATO unit, or to a Canadian Forces or allied formation or unit outside territorial limits of Canada under the operational control of a NATO headquarters, or in Canada on an operational staff directly participating in the operational control of such formations and units. In the latter case, only those staff personnel serving in an operations room directly participating in the control of ships and aircraft in NATO operations and exercises qualify for this service. Persons in eligible positions or operations on 19 October 04 can continue to count their time until the end of that posting or deployment only. NOT ALL time served in Europe nor at sea can be counted towards this bar.

Also, considering OP REASSURANCE is eligible service for SSM-NATO, no need for OSM-EXP.

Quote
647    NATO Standing Defence Plan deployed to Turkey    2012-12-04    Present    OP ACTIVE FENCE
648    TF Iceland    2013-03-18    Present    OP IGNITION
649    Service of CAF members who deployed to campia Turzii, Romania, Lithuania and Spangdahlem airbase in Germany as part of the air task force (ATF).    2014-04-29    Present    OP REASSURANCE
650    Service of CAF members who deployed to eastern and central Europe as part of the Land Task Force (LTF).    2014-04-29    Present    OP REASSURANCE
651    Service à bord des navires canadiens de Sa Majesté déployés dans le cadre du groupe maritime permanent OTAN 2 (SNMG 2) à condition que le service ne soit pas reconnu par une médaille de l'OTAN. Seul le temps passé sous commandement de l'OTAN est admissible - temps de transit ne compte pas.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2016, 10:47:46 »
I am curious, why you don't consider the SSM-NATO to be adequate?  Is it just not to be associated with the old "Cold Warriors", or that you don't feel it has any similarity to what 4 CMBG, the Nato Standing Fleet and ACE Mobile Forces did?

Actually, I believe they were too hasty with closing out the SSM-NATO.  The navy, in particular, still does NATO fleet deployments which in the past was recognised with the SSM.  With this being a NATO mission to Latvia then I suppose it could go either way.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2016, 11:25:12 »


Breaking news - recently appointed to review deployments.
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2016, 11:32:48 »

But....That would mean that we would have to bring back the M2......AGAIN.   [:D
Not to mention giving mortars back to the infantry ...
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2016, 12:24:08 »
Actually, I believe they were too hasty with closing out the SSM-NATO.  The navy, in particular, still does NATO fleet deployments which in the past was recognised with the SSM.  With this being a NATO mission to Latvia then I suppose it could go either way.

Time as a member of SNMG 1 and 2 still counts toward the SSM-NATO as long as that time doesn't count toward another Op like Active Endeavor. The thing is you don't get the time unless you belong to the SNMG, so sailing for a few exercises in the fall doesn't count.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2016, 13:18:45 »
This sounds about right (from SSM-NATO description):

Also, considering OP REASSURANCE is eligible service for SSM-NATO, no need for OSM-EXP.

Wait for it. The SSM-NATO for OP REASSURANCE was recinded by CDS Directive FRAG 001. AFC is looking to roll Op REASSURANCE and Op UNIFIER under the same medal. And as UNIFIER is not a NATO mission, it look like the Cold War 2 medal will be something along the lines of a GSM or OSM with a theatre specific ribbon.
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Offline fake penguin

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2016, 13:44:57 »
Not to mention giving mortars back to the infantry ...



Did they take away the 60mm motor?
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2016, 20:23:53 »
Rather than worry about medals, I'd be more concerned how the Trudeau Grits and VAC are going to treat our soldiers if SHTF and they come home injured. They should really sort out that mess before putting any more of our troops into harms way.  Soldiers shouldn't have think about crap like that when deployed as an extention of the government, quite possibly in harms way.
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