Author Topic: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?  (Read 8408 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« on: November 18, 2016, 11:29:45 »
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-coast-guard-may-be-forced-to-lease-icebreakers-as-aging-fleet-increasingly-at-risk-of-breakdowns

Is that really all that bad?

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard may be forced to lease icebreakers as aging fleet increasingly at risk of breakdowns

Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press | November 18, 2016 7:25 AM ET

The Louis S. St-Laurent, seen in Lancaster Sound on July 11, 2008, was supposed to retire next year but a delay in building a new polar icebreaker means it will stay in the water.

OTTAWA — The Canadian Coast Guard is looking at ways to deal with a looming shortage of icebreakers as its aging fleet faces a mounting threat of frequent mechanical breakdowns.

The federal government on Thursday asked industry to begin drawing up options for providing icebreaking services, including the potential cost and availability, should they be required, of leasing from private companies.

The request comes days after one of the coast guard’s existing ships was taken out of service for what officials described as an “engineering challenge,” which they predicted will become more common in the coming years.

“Aging ships come with a greater risk of breakdowns and increased requirements for unplanned maintenance,” said Chris Henderson, the coast guard’s director general of national strategies.

“This means we may face potential gaps in icebreaking services over the next five years.”

The coast guard says it may need as many as five extra icebreakers at various times over the next few years as the current fleet goes through repairs and upgrades and a new polar icebreaker is built.

That polar icebreaker, Canadian Coast Guard Ship John G. Diefenbaker, was supposed to be finished next year, at which point the government would retire the 47-year-old CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent.

But a scheduling conflict at the Vancouver shipyard responsible for building the $1.3-billion Diefenbaker means it won’t be ready until the early 2020s and so the St-Laurent is being kept in the water.

The federal government has not started moving to replace any of the coast guard’s other icebreakers, even though nearly all of them are over 30 years old and some are nearly 40.

“We’re dealing with an aging fleet that’s going to need a lot of tender loving care,” Henderson said.

Officials blamed increased demand caused by changing ice conditions and activity in the Arctic for their search for alternative icebreaking services for up to 20 years, and not bad planning.

“I think this is, from the coast guard’s perspective, prudent planning so that we don’t end up in a situation where we don’t have sufficient icebreaking capability,” Henderson said.

“We’re doing exactly what we feel is necessary to find out from industry how they can help fill gaps that were previously unforeseen.”

Officials said they are also looking to lease two tugboats to respond to accidents and other emergencies, as part of the Liberal government’s recent commitment to stronger ocean protection.

Lisa Campbell, who oversees military and marine projects at Public Procurement, said the government would lease the tugboats for about five years.

At the end of that period, it would look at how much they were used and decide whether to keep leasing the vessels or buy new ones.

A number of other countries have leased government vessels from the private sector, including the UK and the US.  Some of those vessels were armed as well.  Even AOPS type ships have been leased.

So, is leasing really all that bad an option?  Especially at this time when the existing inventory is so old, capital is limited, roles are in flux and capabilities have to be explored.



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Offline Colin P

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2016, 11:35:16 »
They leased the Terry Fox for awhile if I recall correctly. The problem is that you may not be able to lease the Icebreaker type you need.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 12:06:27 »
They leased the Terry Fox for awhile if I recall correctly. The problem is that you may not be able to lease the Icebreaker type you need.

My sense is that the demand is so great and the supply is so small that starting to fill the gap with what is available shouldn't be a problem.  Whatever gap(s) remain could then be filled by "custom" solutions.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2016, 12:24:11 »
You need to decide if it's going to be a river class icebreaker, medium ocean going or if you need a heavy icebreaker, I suspect most are in the former 2, heavies will be hard to find with a good size crane as well.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2016, 12:30:30 »
How about new build lease?  And more generally applied to include multi-task and patrol vessels?
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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2016, 14:07:15 »
Time to take another look at the options coming out of Davie? The two VS4220 and the Aiviq?

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2016, 14:42:56 »
The lease is for tugs, not ice breakers...

Specially, ocean going tugs capable of towing a large tanker or container vessel...

http://tugfaxblogspotcom.blogspot.ca/2016/11/etv-on-horizon.html?m=1

I can't see them paying the day rate for the clipper and cutter, but with the slow down in the oil industry, there's all sorts of older cheaper anchor handlers available to fill the need.

Coincidentally, the clipper and cutter have features that they haven't asked for, but would be an excellent selling point, both have an oil recovery operations (oro) system, basically turns the boats into a big oil vacuum, store the recovered waste in their cargo tanks.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 15:04:25 by Not a Sig Op »
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 15:01:43 »
CP story at start of topic amazingly doesn't mention Davie interest:

Quote
Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 15:17:26 »
My concern for the tugs is they will lease them , add them to the fleet and not provide any or very little funds to run them.

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2016, 15:28:10 »
The lease is for tugs, not ice breakers...

Specially, ocean going tugs capable of towing a large tanker or container vessel...

http://tugfaxblogspotcom.blogspot.ca/2016/11/etv-on-horizon.html?m=1

I can't see them paying the day rate for the clipper and cutter, but with the slow down in the oil industry, there's all sorts of older cheaper anchor handlers available to fill the need.

Coincidentally, the clipper and cutter have features that they haven't asked for, but would be an excellent selling point, both have an oil recovery operations (oro) system, basically turns the boats into a big oil vacuum, store the recovered waste in their cargo tanks.

Yeah I got confused and forgot where I was posting

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 16:13:28 »
Meanwhile first three CCG vessels building at Seaspan--long story, note Davie at end of quote:

Quote
Shipshape at Seaspan
The first federal government vessels are taking shape in North Vancouver


Under a movable shelter several storeys high at Seaspan Shipyards, the graceful curve of a ship’s bow arcs upwards, dwarfing the hard-hatted workers who stand on the yard below.

Near the bottom of the ship, dark circular tunnels hold bow thrusters that will set below the waterline. Above, workers stand on what will eventually be one deck level of the Sir John Franklin, the first of three Coast Guard offshore fisheries science vessels under construction at Seaspan in North Vancouver.

Soon, “Big Blue,” Seaspan’s massive $18-million gantry crane, will hoist another massive piece of the ship on top of this one to be fit together, like a giant piece of Lego.

A similar assembly process is underway nearby for the stern of the ship, where a worker on a scissor lift grinds a seam that will join two huge sections of the ship together.

 Brian Carter, Seaspan’s president of shipyards, stands below the very back of the vessel, pointing out where the rudder will eventually sit, and where rounded edges will accommodate a fisheries net that will be used to do assessments of fish stocks.

Tracking how the pieces of the ship – known as “blocks” – come together here is one of the crucial markers of how work on the first of the federal vessels built under the National Shipbuilding Strategy is going...

The process hasn’t been without its challenges.

The contract to build the first three fisheries vessels – budgeted at $687 million including operational servicing of the ships and including up to $514 million for construction – came in almost three times the original budget of $244 million. But the original budget figure, set in 2007 and never updated, didn’t contain provision for inflation, project management, engineering, design or contingency costs.

Seaspan cut the steel for the first fisheries vessel in June 2015, at a milestone marked with celebratory political speeches.

Since then, there’s been a learning curve as construction of the first ship has progressed. That’s not unexpected, says Carter...

The first ship is expected to be in the water by June 2017 and delivered to the government by the fall of 2017. Construction of the second fisheries vessel started this year at the end of March and is expected to be ready six months after the first ship is delivered [emphasis added]...

Work on a third offshore fisheries vessel is expected to begin later this month. Under the new system, up to four vessels can be built at the yard at one time, says Carter...

Following the fisheries ships, Seaspan is scheduled to begin work on a larger oceanographic science ship. An engineering contract for that has been signed and contracts worth more than $65 million to source parts requiring a long lead time, like propulsion systems, for both the science and joint support ships were signed in March of this year.

A construction contract for the oceanographic vessel – originally targeted for this year – is now expected in 2017, as is the contract to build the joint support ships.

Likely the biggest political issue for the shipbuilding strategy, however, concerns the project budgets...

Shipyards like Davie in Quebec have repeatedly suggested that in order to meet its deadlines, Ottawa should parcel out more of the work to other companies. Earlier this year, Davie raised eyebrows by submitting an unsolicited bid on some of the work already awarded to Seaspan under the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Top brass at Seaspan say that isn’t phasing them, adding they’ve received good support from the new Liberal government in Ottawa...
http://www.nsnews.com/news/shipshape-at-seaspan-1.2625385

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2016, 16:40:35 »

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2016, 12:28:23 »
From Davie on Aiviq, icebreaker it is proposing for CCG--note Polar Class 3, same as Louis St. Laurent:
http://www.davie.ca/pdf/Aiviq.pdf

Image via sister company, Federal Fleet (helo sure looks like CH-148, not planned for CCG):
http://federalfleet.ca/2016/06/21/fast-track-polar-icebreaker/



Federal Fleet also involved with Davie on Prokect Resolve AOR conversion for RCN:
http://federalfleet.ca/2016/07/01/resolve-class-aor-a-strategic-enabler-for-canadian-humanitarian-assistance-and-disaster-relief-capabilities/



Mark
Ottawa




Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2016, 15:25:52 »
Interesting how more of the artwork seems to be incorporating LCVPs instead of simple boats.
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2016, 15:48:32 »
Interesting how more of the artwork seems to be incorporating LCVPs instead of simple boats.

More efficiently facilitates the redistribution of first-world wealth.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2016, 16:10:47 »
CCG actually getting seven Bell medium helos:

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard’s New Medium-Lift Helos Sole-Sourced to Bell Helicopter Canada
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/04/11/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guards-new-medium-lift-helos-sole-sourced-to-bell-canada/

Plus 15 light Bell ones:

Quote
Bell Rung: All 15 Canadian Coast Guard Light Helos Delivered
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/mark-collins-bell-rung-all-15-canadian-coast-guard-light-helos-delivered/

Much smoother acquisitions than for Canadian Armed forces--little media attention or political uproar, made in Quebec.

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2016, 17:51:45 »
More efficiently facilitates the redistribution of first-world wealth.

Got it! Bigger scoop.
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2016, 18:14:56 »
Interesting how more of the artwork seems to be incorporating LCVPs instead of simple boats.

Not really, most of the existing coast guard ice breakers have a "barge" and an frc.

They're useful for bouy laying, and useful for landing supplies/people ashore.

Particularly in the Arctic where proper ports that can accommodate the ship are few and far between.

Though aside from maybe the Louis s st Laurent, they're not typically lcvp sized.

If you could see the other side, there would likely be a Miranda Davit with an zodiac frc.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 18:18:55 by Not a Sig Op »
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2016, 19:38:42 »
See attached photos of the CCGS Ann Harvey and the CCGS Louis S St Laurent.

The Harvey has her landing barge (Aluminum hulled, probably about 20' long, has an engine and a small wheel house, with a short landing ramp forward and a stern roller aft) in davits just aft of her life boat.

This is typical of what you'll find on most of the ice breakers now, with a zodiac FRC in a miranda davit on the opposite side.

The Louis has her landing barge (Steel hulled, probably about 40' long, has an engine, and a small wheel house, and a large landing ramp forward, sort of looks like a half sized LCM-8) also in a davit just aft of her life boat.

The Louis has an FRC, but does not have a davit for her FRC, it's typically stowed on top in the center, there's a flat open deck aft of the stack, and it's launched/recovered by her cargo crane... needless to say she needs pretty much perfect weather for it. There's usually a smaller zodiac up there as well related to helicopter operations, also launched/recovered with the crane.

Side note, the coast guard loves their miranda davits, and aside from being a bit rough on the paint on the super structure, they're about the best you can get for launch and recovery of an FRC, I'm genuinely surprised they haven't been more widely adopted.

Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2016, 10:39:20 »
Not really, most of the existing coast guard ice breakers have a "barge" and an frc.

They're useful for bouy laying, and useful for landing supplies/people ashore.

Particularly in the Arctic where proper ports that can accommodate the ship are few and far between.

Though aside from maybe the Louis s st Laurent, they're not typically lcvp sized.

If you could see the other side, there would likely be a Miranda Davit with an zodiac frc.

The barge has tanks in them to deliver fuel, they are a terrible design, going astern you lose most of your thrust against the hull, the prop can be turned 360 degrees and has no rudder, except you can only turn the prop when it's engaged. These boats can be a real bugger to handle. The weld quality is also terrible. We also have a Zodiac 733 and a Fiberglass Workboat, those are really nice boats.


Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2016, 12:04:41 »
There's multiple versions in use, the aluminium hulled version is about the same size, but has an wheel house on the centre of the port side, and has a stern roller fitted for laying bouys.

Im almost certain the aluminium hulled barges have a rudder.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Coast Guard Forced To Lease?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2016, 13:33:28 »
Quite possible, I was working on them back in 92. It's really , really loud using a needle gun on them when they are on the hard.