Author Topic: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF  (Read 64989 times)

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Offline Loachman

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2017, 04:33:10 »

I am no trying to be facetious, as I post this.

Even without that caveat, I'd not have taken your post that way.


That was a Phenomenal post, and I thank you bro.

Thank-you, and you are most welcome.

I, too, have learned much from you. I know nobody, beyond you and recceguy, who is using medical marijuana. Previously, I'd only read a few newspaper articles that lacked, of course, any real and valuable information, but felt, nonetheless, that it was a good thing if people benefitted from it as they seemed to do. I now know much more about the benefits and processes involved.

You are convincing me, believe me, that there are specialised duties that need to have zero tolerance.  I mistook You wanting that for everyone.

A mistake that would be trivial in most circumstances can often be deadly in an aircraft. I have lost good friends and colleagues to several such trivial mistakes, both their own and other people's. One such case involved the Spragg clutch in the freewheeling unit on CH136258, which was found, during the investigation into the deaths of Bob Connell and Henry Andersen one night in June 1985, to be three ten-thousandths of an inch out-of-round due to a manufacturing error. The allowable tolerance was two ten-thousandths of an inch. One ten-thousandth of an inch killed them. Had they known what was happening - and this failure had never happened before and happened in a most misleading manner - and not been at five hundred feet above hills, trees, and a lake in absolute darkness and bad weather (ie, about as much going against them as one could imagine) they might, barely, have survived, but even under ideal circumstances they had perhaps five, maybe ten, seconds to correctly diagnose a failure that took the investigators months to determine, and react perfectly.

Another Pilot and I were the last ones to fly that machine and live. The failure occurred about one half-hour of flying time after I shut down at the end of my flight.

The possibility of something similar happening is ever-constant, and one must give oneself every possible edge. Being medically fit to fly and fully alert is one such edge, and even just a slight edge can make the difference between a few extra rapid heartbeats, a wide-eyed silent "holy frig", and a comforting beer a few hours after giving one's blood and urine samples and being the guest of honour at a funeral. I've been lucky on several occasions.

I've learned a lot of lessons from my mistakes, and shared those lessons widely as they may keep others alive, and also learned a lot from other people's tales. Some of those stories (the happier ones) were told directly, and some, the unhappy ones like Bob and Henry's, were briefed by the investigating team or read about in the investigative reports. A very, very observant Flight Engineer saved his crew, passengers, and machine a week or so ago from tragedy. I can too easily, and too vividly, picture what might have happened had he not noticed what was subtly occurring on the opposite side of his machine with seconds to spare, unbeknownst by the drivers. Life or death can be determined by less than the thickness of a human hair, a few seconds or less, glancing in just the right place or not, or Spidey-sense tingling.

There is, thus, no room available for even a hint of impairment in aviation. That has been proven to me many, many times, so it is one of the few things on which I shall never compromise.

There are always more than enough things waiting to jump out and kill one. There is no need to add to the pile.

Offline medicineman

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2017, 08:50:26 »
Any thoughts on how they'll view this for things like Aircrew, divers, submariners?  The medical standards and factors seem to be more stringent there.  Trying to picture Cheech and Chong in the cockpit of a CAF aircraft etc.

Holy crap I'm playing catch-up this morning...I would put things this way - if it's a self medication thing, divers/aircrew are not allowed to self medicate, FULL STOP.  If divers needed something for an oweee, we needed to know it - could be masking a minor DCS as a for instance.  Anything that can alter your ability to concentrate under normal atmospheric conditions is definitely a no no when under abnormal ones.  Things than make you feel funny or giddy - again same thing, as you need to know if you're feeling that way because of the substances you're taking in or because of an equipment malfunction, you're narced out/hypoxic, or whatever.  The other issue that comes with self medication - its not always what you're using, but why you're using it - for example, mood issues are important to know about because they already alter levels of concentration, putting not only you but others at risk. 

I think before this all comes on line in the CAF, especially for people in particularly hazardous jobs, a lot of good randomized control trials will have to be done dealing with average clearance times for average people...and their effects under dysbaric conditions.

As much as it pains me to say, Tess, since you seem to be the Cohunna regarding this, have you considered going to DRDC Toronto with a research proposal regarding cannabinoid trials not only for general use, but also for safety sensitive use?  The reason I say DRDC (T), is they do all the environmental research there, I know you're in the area, and hey, I'd say there is a handy amount of money to be had for something like that and I can't think of a better person to tackle the job.

Long story short, I don't see CAF Environmental Medical regulations regarding medications and flying/diving to change with this new law coming into play anytime soon...IM(NSH)O.

MM
MM

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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2017, 13:33:19 »

There is, thus, no room available for even a hint of impairment in aviation. That has been proven to me many, many times, so it is one of the few things on which I shall never compromise.


Good post.  Came across this while searching for some background about on-going proposals/research in how the legalization of pot will affect the regulatory aspects of workplace safety.  And that is what we are talking about re this subject and the CF - workplace safety.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2011/a11w0151/a11w0151.asp
Quote
. . .
Summary

The Air Tindi Ltd. Cessna 208B Caravan (registration C-GATV, serial number 208B0308) departed Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, at 1103 Mountain Daylight Time under visual flight rules as regularly scheduled flight Air Tindi 200 (AT200) to Lutsel K'e, Northwest Territories. When the aircraft did not arrive at its scheduled time, a search was initiated, and the aircraft was found 26 nautical miles west of Lutsel K'e, near the crest of Pehtei Peninsula. The pilot and one passenger were fatally injured, and two passengers were seriously injured. There was no post-impact fire, and no emergency locator transmitter signal was received by the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre or search aircraft.

. . .
Toxicology

Post-mortem toxicological screening revealed the presence of cannabinoids in the pilot's system. Femoral blood contained 50.1 nanograms per millilitre (ng/ml) of delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta9-THC), and 21.6 ng/ml of carboxy-THC. Pleural fluid contained 11.9 ng/ml of delta9-THC, as well as 41.8 ng/ml of carboxy-THC. Urine contained 272 ng/ml of carboxy-THC. Considering the significant amount of THC in the pilot's blood, the TSB considered confirmation by retesting. The small quantity of remaining femoral blood sample precluded retesting.

. . .

Pilot decision-making and THC effects

On the day of the accident, aspects of the pilot's planning, flying technique and decision-making were inconsistent with regulatory and administrative requirements, the company operations manual policy, and safe flying practices. These included VFR flight in marginal visual weather conditions, flight in IMC on a VFR flight plan, and overwater flight beyond gliding distance of land. The quantity of psychoactive components in the pilot's system is considered to have been sufficient to have resulted in impairment of cognitive processes. This would likely have had an effect on planning and conduct of the accident flight. It is possible that the pilot, under the influence of cannabis, avoided the higher workload of IFR flight in IMC, choosing to remain visual for the trip to Lutsel K'e. Random testing of employees in safety sensitive positions may mitigate this risk.

. . .
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2017, 13:56:29 »
Good post.  Came across this while searching for some background about on-going proposals/research in how the legalization of pot will affect the regulatory aspects of workplace safety.  And that is what we are talking about re this subject and the CF - workplace safety.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2011/a11w0151/a11w0151.asp

That is very interesting after a single dose impairment could last up to 6 hours or even 24 hours for some activities such as flying. Given that some overindulge and not just smoke one joint given the comparison to alcohol how long will be the impairment then? I can see why the oil patch drug test their workers'.  It also says the drug can remain in the body for up to 30 days. So given that if someone in the CF is tested how can they even prove that they did it on their off time or is there tests to determine when they did it and are these test accurate? Given that many jobs are safety sensitive in the CAF it may be difficult to have a policy for recreational use.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 14:06:03 by Chief Stoker »
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2017, 14:23:11 »
Good post.  Came across this while searching for some background about on-going proposals/research in how the legalization of pot will affect the regulatory aspects of workplace safety.  And that is what we are talking about re this subject and the CF - workplace safety.

Summary

The Air Tindi Ltd. Cessna 208B Caravan (registration C-GATV, serial number 208B0308) departed Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, at 1103 Mountain Daylight Time under visual flight rules as regularly scheduled flight Air Tindi 200 (AT200) to Lutsel K'e, Northwest Territories. When the aircraft did not arrive at its scheduled time, a search was initiated, and the aircraft was found 26 nautical miles west of Lutsel K'e, near the crest of Pehtei Peninsula. The pilot and one passenger were fatally injured, and two passengers were seriously injured. There was no post-impact fire, and no emergency locator transmitter signal was received by the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre or search aircraft.

. . .
Toxicology

Post-mortem toxicological screening revealed the presence of cannabinoids in the pilot's system. Femoral blood contained 50.1 nanograms per millilitre (ng/ml) of delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta9-THC), and 21.6 ng/ml of carboxy-THC. Pleural fluid contained 11.9 ng/ml of delta9-THC, as well as 41.8 ng/ml of carboxy-THC. Urine contained 272 ng/ml of carboxy-THC. Considering the significant amount of THC in the pilot's blood, the TSB considered confirmation by retesting. The small quantity of remaining femoral blood sample precluded retesting.

. . .

Pilot decision-making and THC effects

On the day of the accident, aspects of the pilot's planning, flying technique and decision-making were inconsistent with regulatory and administrative requirements, the company operations manual policy, and safe flying practices. These included VFR flight in marginal visual weather conditions, flight in IMC on a VFR flight plan, and overwater flight beyond gliding distance of land. The quantity of psychoactive components in the pilot's system is considered to have been sufficient to have resulted in impairment of cognitive processes. This would likely have had an effect on planning and conduct of the accident flight. It is possible that the pilot, under the influence of cannabis, avoided the higher workload of IFR flight in IMC, choosing to remain visual for the trip to Lutsel K'e. Random testing of employees in safety sensitive positions may mitigate this risk.


I'm not a pilot, but I think there were other things involved also. Crazy weather and low clouds. The decision to fly VFR as opposed to IFR. The pilots previous navigation problems. The cannabis. They indicate that THC and cannabinoids could have been the cause and well it could have been, but the results were inconclusive. They could not rule out faulty results because they lacked the material to retest and prove.

I'm not arguing whether it was responsible or not. Since 1991, the TSB has documented 4 occurrences in air, marine and rail modes where those involved in the operation of vehicles have either tested positive for cannabinoids, or were known to have used the substance while in a position of responsibility for those vehicles.

I've not read the other four reports, but on the face of it, there are many factors that could have been responsible for the crash, not just cannabis use. Even the footnotes show the disparity in thinking amongst the 'experts' about cannabis. Cannabis, in this case, appears to of had an effect on events, but it can't be proven as the cause.

The trick is in not just reading an excerpt from the investigation that fits your vision, but reading the whole thing to get all sides of the story. Including the footnotes.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #105 on: April 29, 2017, 14:39:39 »
Do they do random testing on their workers? Has a final decision been made?

Suncor Energy Inc., Oil Sands’ attempt to implement random alcohol and drug testing of safety-sensitive employees at Suncor oil sands operations was recently rejected by the Alberta Arbitration Board after hearing a grievance filed by Unifor, Local 707A, representing Suncor employees at its Fort McMurray operations. The Board found Suncor’s Policy to be an unreasonable exercise of management rights.
http://cenera.ca/a-landmark-ruling-on-random-drug-and-alcohol-testing-in-alberta-is-the-door-completely-closed-blog/

Suncor’s drug and alcohol policy given another chance by appeal court
http://www.hrreporter.com/article/28071-suncors-drug-and-alcohol-policy-given-another-chance-by-appeal-court/
The appeal court quashed the arbitration board’s decision against Suncor’s alcohol and drug testing policy and remitted the case back for arbitration by a fresh panel.

Some info fairly  recently on the legalization and oil company concerns.

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/news/energy/blog.html?b=business.financialpost.com/news/energy/there-is-already-madness-brewing-in-the-oilpatch-over-ottawas-reefer-legalization&pubdate=2016-09-02
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #106 on: April 29, 2017, 14:50:18 »
That is very interesting after a single dose impairment could last up to 6 hours or even 24 hours for some activities such as flying. Given that some overindulge and not just smoke one joint given the comparison to alcohol how long will be the impairment then? I can see why the oil patch drug test their workers'.  It also says the drug can remain in the body for up to 30 days. So given that if someone in the CF is tested how can they even prove that they did it on their off time or is there tests to determine when they did it and are these test accurate? Given that many jobs are safety sensitive in the CAF it may be difficult to have a policy for recreational use.

I wonder what a single dose is?

I wonder if the cannabis used was a THC-A joint of specific size, using the same strain as found in the system of the corpse?

I wonder if they used edibles, oils, tinctures, salves, capsules as opposed to smoking it?

I wonder what they used as a test bed to determine dose and length of after effects?

I wonder if they have made any distinctions about whether the actual effects wear off even with the presence of THC in the fat cells. Just because it's there, doesn't mean it's active or causing impairment.

I wonder if we can discuss cannabis use, without relating it to alcohol use? Some may drink 5 beers before passing out, some 25. You are not going to chain smoke 5 or 25 joints before you are totally couch locked. Binge drinking and misuse of alcohol are separate problems and drugs with no relation to cannabis.

Safety sensitive jobs have always been regulated as how and when social drugs are consumed. If you want to be aircrew, you don't do it. If you want to work on a rig, don't do it.

These are choices for people to make. Not laws and decrees for blanket restrictions. The company say aircrew won't indulge, that's a term of employment, like hard hats and safety boots, not a Charter infringement. Nobody is forcing you into that career and if you really want it, you'll do what's needed to keep it.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2017, 14:58:30 »
Thanks, Chief. 

It sounds like random drug testing in the oil patch is in limbo?

"Suncor has been locked in a court battle with Unifor Local 707A for years over its random drug testing program, with the union saying the program is an infringement on their members’ personal privacy."

12/22/2016
"The appeal court quashed the arbitration board’s decision against Suncor’s alcohol and drug testing policy and remitted the case back for arbitration by a fresh panel."

Seeing that we are in the military and not unionized then safety sensitive drug testing could be implemented along the lines of what the oil patch wants to do. Perhaps that would be a way for people in those sensitive positions to be checked?
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2017, 15:03:44 »
I wonder what a single dose is?

I wonder if the cannabis used was a THC-A joint of specific size, using the same strain as found in the system of the corpse?

I wonder if they used edibles, oils, tinctures, salves, capsules as opposed to smoking it?

I wonder what they used as a test bed to determine dose and length of after effects?

I wonder if they have made any distinctions about whether the actual effects wear off even with the presence of THC in the fat cells. Just because it's there, doesn't mean it's active or causing impairment.

I wonder if we can discuss cannabis use, without relating it to alcohol use? Some may drink 5 beers before passing out, some 25. You are not going to chain smoke 5 or 25 joints before you are totally couch locked. Binge drinking and misuse of alcohol are separate problems and drugs with no relation to cannabis.

Safety sensitive jobs have always been regulated as how and when social drugs are consumed. If you want to be aircrew, you don't do it. If you want to work on a rig, don't do it.

These are choices for people to make. Not laws and decrees for blanket restrictions. The company say aircrew won't indulge, that's a term of employment, like hard hats and safety boots, not a Charter infringement. Nobody is forcing you into that career and if you really want it, you'll do what's needed to keep it.

I guess the problem is that there are too many variables and I can see the CF who is risk averse to begin with not allowing it for the members it before the science is avaiable. Probably by health Canada. As some with a better medical background has stated alcohol is very predictable on its effects much more than cannabis.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 16:04:01 by Chief Stoker »
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Online mariomike

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2017, 15:09:35 »
Seeing that we are in the military and not unionized then safety sensitive drug testing could be implemented along the lines of what the oil patch wants to do. Perhaps that would be a way for people in those sensitive positions to be checked?

I replied to your oil patch posts in Radio Chatter.

Random Drug testing
http://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,125666.msg1486608.html#msg1486608
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 15:19:08 by mariomike »

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #110 on: May 03, 2017, 22:38:58 »
A small amount of alcohol (i.e. a beer) will have zero (or very little) noticeable psychological affect on those consuming it (obviously, that's not always the case, some people do get inebriated after one drink); a small amount of cannabis, on the other hand, will have an immediate inebriating affect. Sure, this might not be true of someone who has developed a tolerance, but we're talking about CAF members here. I'd hope that even if it was made permissible recreationally, that they wouldn't all start lighting up on a daily basis.

So, I can have one beer and go back to work and feel fine, but I imagine that if I smoked a joint at lunch I think that I'd be noticeably inebriated for the rest of the afternoon.

Thoughts?

My thoughts?

Pure conjecture/ misinformation.

Again, how big is a joint? What is the genus and strain? Is it majority THC or CBD? How do you know how long it will affect you? What are you taking it for? These variables are important to know. Otherwise, people get the wrong ideas. As you, yourself, have.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #111 on: May 04, 2017, 05:40:28 »
I wondered what the CF actually thought of Cannabis usage and I found this. Some good facts and how the CF sees Cannabis. I know people will think this a attempt by the CF to scare people off from usage and its a bit cheesy however some of the facts are based on health Canada. More importantly if this is the way the CF sees Cannabis it is very possible that it won't be legalized while employed by the military to use. Are these facts actually facts or BS?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-health-services-wellness-addiction/other-drug-use.page


Cannabis, The most widely used illegal drug

Get the facts!
•Cannabis is classified under two drug categories: Depressants and Hallucinogens.
•Cannabis is used in three forms. It is used as marijuana (the dried leaf of the plant), hashish and hash oil (both from the plant resin).
•Marijuana and hashish are usually smoked, while hash oil is usually added to marijuana or tobacco cigarettes.
•The chemical ingredient in cannabis that produces the high is called THC (delta-9-tetrahydro-cannabinol). New growing methods have been developed in recent years and the percentage of THC found in cannabis has increased making it even stronger.

Short terms effects:
•Feeling relaxed and free. People sometimes experience a heightened sense of smell and vision. Normally these effects last two to four hours.
•Cannabis makes users clumsier and significantly slows their reaction times therefore adversely affecting operational readiness and safety. Driving and operating machinery while stoned is not safe, especially if cannabis is combined with other drugs, including alcohol.
•When cannabis enters the brain the short-term effects include memory problems, distorted perception, difficulty thinking, impaired concentration, loss of coordination and interference with normal muscle functioning.
•While high on cannabis, many people will lose some of their ability to learn and will forget things and have trouble concentrating.
•Some users feel severe anxiety and high doses can cause panic attacks, fearful, suspicious feelings (paranoia) and temporary psychosis.
•These effects can persist long after the initial high has worn off. In fact, they may last 24 hours or more.

Long-term effects:
•Cannabis smoke contains cancer-producing chemicals that damage the lungs and can lead to chronic coughing, lung infections and cancer of the lungs, neck and head.
•Regular/heavy use of cannabis is associated with decreased manual dexterity and a decreased ability to incorporate feedback to correct incorrect responses. For example, when playing a game, cannabis users will have greater difficulty changing their strategy based on what their opponents are doing.
•Many long-term cannabis users develop problems with short-term memory, concentration.

Cannabis Use in the military

The Canadian Armed Forces has a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding the use of cannabis and other illegal drugs.

For more information on this and other topics, contact your local Health Promotion Office.


Marijuana - More Harmful Than You Think!

Marijuana is the most commonly-used illicit drug in Canada, both in civilian and military populations. However, many people feel that this is a relatively harmless drug, and so getting high every now and again is not a big deal. But is this true? Is marijuana use as harmless as it seems? The truth is that marijuana has many short-and long-term effects that many people aren't aware of, and these effects can lead to very dangerous situations, especially in the military, where we use firearms and heavy machinery on a daily basis. For example:
•Studies have shown that smoking marijuana decreases a pilot's performance on tasks requiring them to maintain flying patterns (e.g., altitude, heading, etc.), increases the number of major errors they make (errors that could have lethal consequences, such as forgetting to put landing gear down), and decreases their ability to land an aircraft (pilots often missed the centre of the runway by 30-70 feet - very dangerous when landing large aircraft on smaller, remote airfields).
•Because it is a depressant, marijuana increases sleepiness, which is problem if you're on guard duty!
•Marijuana can cause dry mouth and throat. In a hot, dry area like Afghanistan, this can make a bad situation (i.e., you're already thirsty and dehydrated) worse and lead to decreased ability to focus on your task and your surroundings.
•The hallucinogenic effects of marijuana can lead to paranoia, hallucinations, intense anxiety and panic attacks. This makes the user dangerous to other members as well, especially in tense situations such as would be encountered in war. It may also interfere with the user's ability to tell friend from foe.
•The general depressant effects of marijuana result in slowed reaction time, loss of motor coordination, decreased problem solving ability, and impaired memory and judgment. All of these are potentially fatal impairments in combat situations.

The above are short-term effects that can last up to 24 hours after using marijuana or other cannabis products (e.g., hashish, hashish oil). But there are serious long-term effects, too. Marijuana smoke, like tobacco smoke, contains many carcinogens (cancer-producing chemicals) that with repeated use can result in cancers of the lung, head, and neck. Regular/long-term use of marijuana is also associated with decreased manual dexterity and decreased ability to incorporate feedback into actions. This is a potentially deadly deficiency in combat situations or when other complex tasks are required.

Finally, aside from the effects that marijuana has on the user, the marijuana cigarette itself is a danger to members' safety: As with tobacco cigarettes, the joint leaves a heat signature, a light signature, and a presence signature (the butt of the cigarette as litter indicates your presence or recent presence) - all of which endanger not only the user, but all those around him/her.So if you find yourself thinking about 'smoking up,' ponder the resultant dangers to yourself and your comrades… Or think about how you'd feel if you knew that one of your comrades was using marijuana and putting you in danger. Always keep in mind, WHO'S GOT YOUR BACK?

For more information on this and other topics, contact your local Health Promotion Office
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #112 on: May 04, 2017, 10:27:13 »
My thoughts?

Pure conjecture/ misinformation.

Again, how big is a joint? What is the genus and strain? Is it majority THC or CBD? How do you know how long it will affect you? What are you taking it for? These variables are important to know. Otherwise, people get the wrong ideas. As you, yourself, have.

This may be conjecture, but it is not in any way misinformation.

I'm talking about the recreational use of marijuana by our sailors, soldiers, and aviators, which means strains high in THC, not those with low THC and high CBD. The effects of which include:

Quote
Short terms effects:
•Feeling relaxed and free. People sometimes experience a heightened sense of smell and vision. Normally these effects last two to four hours.
•Cannabis makes users clumsier and significantly slows their reaction times therefore adversely affecting operational readiness and safety. Driving and operating machinery while stoned is not safe, especially if cannabis is combined with other drugs, including alcohol.
•When cannabis enters the brain the short-term effects include memory problems, distorted perception, difficulty thinking, impaired concentration, loss of coordination and interference with normal muscle functioning.
•While high on cannabis, many people will lose some of their ability to learn and will forget things and have trouble concentrating.
•Some users feel severe anxiety and high doses can cause panic attacks, fearful, suspicious feelings (paranoia) and temporary psychosis.
•These effects can persist long after the initial high has worn off. In fact, they may last 24 hours or more.


If you are a regular user, then you would need a higher dose (a bigger joint, as you allude to) in order to achieve these affects. But, as I conjectured (is that a word?), our sailors, soldiers, and aviators would not be regular users, but occasional, recreational user. Ergo, a small amount, even a single drag from a joint, would be enough to elicit these symptoms. Conversely, the same person might be able to drink a beer at lunch (or before work, I suppose) and experience next to zero alcohol-related side effects.

Again, I acknowledge, everyone is different. I know sailors who would demonstrate significant inebriation after only 1 beer; but, my position remains the same, and I do not consider it misinformation. I believe that recreational use of cannabis during or before work hours would have a more significant and noticeable impairment effect on our sailors, soldiers, and aviators, than would alcohol.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:29:44 by Lumber »
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Offline BinRat55

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #113 on: May 04, 2017, 12:13:36 »
I know we are now almost 6 pages into this topic, and I have attempted to read MOST of it, however I just want to add a few more things - again, my apologies if this was already brought up...

Marijuana is not just the substance that gets you high anymore. When people take "impairment" into consideration, you have to take everything into consideration. For instance - I can go to lunch and drink 6 beers, smoke a joint and go back to work. How? I thought you would never ask!

I drank 6 "near-beers" with a 0.05% alcohol content. I smoked a strain of marijuana called CBD-A Sativa (no THC, about 3% CBD) which produced no head high whatsoever.

MMJ (and I am still learning more and more every day) has many many properties that affect "studies" and there is no clear-cut answer unless they actually do the right studies. THC indica affects one person differently than another. Add the different strain properties - THC sativa dominant, CBD-A indica dominant... and so on.

And one more thing while I'm on the topic - those people who say "10 grams a day? Not possible!!" - this is exactly why. We don't sit down and puff away a third of an ounce of weed a day. Each strain has different healing properties. Most strains can be turned into an oil, milled product for capsules, etc etc... we need to have prescriptions covering what we use and how we use - for example, in order for me to continue to use my CBD oil, I need to carry a prescription of at least 3gr a day. Once the product is reduced to something OTHER than flower / bud it becomes a greater quantity. So that's just CBD. I also need a THC indica for nighttime use. You can see how it goes up...
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #114 on: May 04, 2017, 16:33:51 »
I know we are now almost 6 pages into this topic, and I have attempted to read MOST of it, however I just want to add a few more things - again, my apologies if this was already brought up...

Marijuana is not just the substance that gets you high anymore. When people take "impairment" into consideration, you have to take everything into consideration. For instance - I can go to lunch and drink 6 beers, smoke a joint and go back to work. How? I thought you would never ask!

I drank 6 "near-beers" with a 0.05% alcohol content. I smoked a strain of marijuana called CBD-A Sativa (no THC, about 3% CBD) which produced no head high whatsoever.

MMJ (and I am still learning more and more every day) has many many properties that affect "studies" and there is no clear-cut answer unless they actually do the right studies. THC indica affects one person differently than another. Add the different strain properties - THC sativa dominant, CBD-A indica dominant... and so on.

And one more thing while I'm on the topic - those people who say "10 grams a day? Not possible!!" - this is exactly why. We don't sit down and puff away a third of an ounce of weed a day. Each strain has different healing properties. Most strains can be turned into an oil, milled product for capsules, etc etc... we need to have prescriptions covering what we use and how we use - for example, in order for me to continue to use my CBD oil, I need to carry a prescription of at least 3gr a day. Once the product is reduced to something OTHER than flower / bud it becomes a greater quantity. So that's just CBD. I also need a THC indica for nighttime use. You can see how it goes up...
:goodpost:
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #115 on: May 04, 2017, 16:52:29 »
I wondered what the CF actually thought of Cannabis usage and I found this. Some good facts and how the CF sees Cannabis. I know people will think this a attempt by the CF to scare people off from usage and its a bit cheesy however some of the facts are based on health Canada. More importantly if this is the way the CF sees Cannabis it is very possible that it won't be legalized while employed by the military to use. Are these facts actually facts or BS?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-health-services-wellness-addiction/other-drug-use.page


<snip>

I won't deny there is real info there, BUT:

I see no date. Much of that info is not current;
Extremely biased. I don't worry about that, it human nature;
Health Canada, while our national medical corporation is supposed to look out for us and only provide accurate info, we all know different. They are government and follow the government agenda (lariam anyone?);
Lots of hyperbole with no ties to medical or scientific studies;and
No positive effects noted.

While some info is there and not disputed, there is a ton of outdated and wrong info there also. Perhaps someone serving can contact them and get it updated. It reads like it's straight out of the '50's. The only thing missing is the unfounded link that one only need look towards the "negros and their jazz music and dancing to see the evil effects of the devil's weed." 8)

Health Canada has a ton of new info on medical cannabis, perhaps DND can get them to share? And have it written by someone other than a bitter old dinosaur of an RSM that just completed another 12 step program. ;D
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 16:56:17 by recceguy »
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #116 on: May 04, 2017, 16:52:52 »
Thanks Recce... I am almost as passionate about medical marijuana as I am about supply! I was THAT guy 3 or 4 years ago - the major sceptic. I had run the gambit of meds, and I truly thought I was a lost cause. I was completely sure that I would die alone and friendless. I said "What the hell? What do I have to loose?" So I went there. It saved my life and more importantly relieved much of my loved ones' pain - the pain I was causing not knowing - or even caring. I still have a lot to learn about MMJ, PTSD and how it all fits together - we all do. But for right now I want to shout from all the rooftops - it works. It works.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #117 on: May 04, 2017, 16:56:25 »
Friendly neighborhood mod dropping by to ask that all discussion be kept on point and civil. Not seeing issues, just asking that we prevent them.

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #118 on: May 04, 2017, 17:01:51 »
Friendly neighborhood mod dropping by to ask that all discussion be kept on point and civil. Not seeing issues, just asking that we prevent them.

Scott
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Here's a friendly neighbourhood question mark ...     ??
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake - Napoleon Bonaparte

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #119 on: May 04, 2017, 17:11:56 »
I won't deny there is real info there, BUT:

I see no date. Much of that info is not current;
Extremely biased. I don't worry about that, it human nature;
Health Canada, while our national medical corporation is supposed to look out for us and only provide accurate info, we all know different. They are government and follow the government agenda (lariam anyone?);
Lots of hyperbole with no ties to medical or scientific studies;and
No positive effects noted.

While some info is there and not disputed, there is a ton of outdated and wrong info there also. Perhaps someone serving can contact them and get it updated. It reads like it's straight out of the '50's. The only thing missing is the unfounded link that one only need look towards the "negros and their jazz music and dancing to see the evil effects of the devil's weed." 8)

Health Canada has a ton of new info on medical cannabis, perhaps DND can get them to share? And have it written by someone other than a bitter old dinosaur of an RSM that just completed another 12 step program. ;D

Its on a CAF web page and what the CAF policy is regarding the drug. It also been updated as of Mar. Some of it may be outdated but not all I would imagine. My point is that this is what the CF currently thinks about Cannabis and its health risks. BTW this thread is about legal Cannabis use in the CAF, we already have a thread about medical MJ. I can dig more info off the DIN if you want and I bet it would say the same thing or are they following the government agenda as you have stated?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 17:17:12 by Chief Stoker »
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #120 on: May 04, 2017, 17:14:25 »
Here's a friendly neighbourhood question mark ...     ??

If you can still find enough of the MC threads to read them, you'll understand rather quickly.

It was not a comment directed at you, or anyone in particular. But one that recent history says needed to be made.

Feel free to PM me if you need further info, we can keep the thread free of it  :)

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2017, 17:19:14 »
Thanks Recce... I am almost as passionate about medical marijuana as I am about supply! I was THAT guy 3 or 4 years ago - the major sceptic. I had run the gambit of meds, and I truly thought I was a lost cause. I was completely sure that I would die alone and friendless. I said "What the hell? What do I have to loose?" So I went there. It saved my life and more importantly relieved much of my loved ones' pain - the pain I was causing not knowing - or even caring. I still have a lot to learn about MMJ, PTSD and how it all fits together - we all do. But for right now I want to shout from all the rooftops - it works. It works.

I echo that Brother. 37+ years, retired MWO (TQ), never touched an illegal drug the whole time. Tranquilizers and sleeping pills, mixed with copious amounts of alcohol. Always in a bad mood and yelling at everyone.

I was convinced to give it a try after a friend gave me some, after I retired, and I haven't looked back. No more overeating, went from near a case of beer a day to less than that over a three week period. My physical pain has been almost completely diminished to where it is hardly noticeable. My wife, of 43 years, is very happy with my transformation. The last few years are some of the best we've had.

I've watched too many friends die by their own hand and seen enough saved by medical cannabis that I'm a total convert. So much so, that my doctor has now decided to start researching it and is referring patients to a local doctor that does prescriptions for particular strains and oils, including dosing. It's taking hold and even professional practitioners are getting on board. My doctor is an ex pharmacist who now prefers to give her patients access to cannabis rather than prescribe pharmaceuticals.

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea and some will never change their minds. However, for those of us that it works for, it's been a godsend. I'm on record as saying certain trades, jobs, positions, etc, require certain considerations. Much the same as the CAF has made for other drugs.

I think the key might be to treating it the same as alcohol or other prescription drugs. If you are not allowed alcohol or other drug, then no cannabis for you.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2017, 20:46:56 »
recceguy/BinRat55,

Thank you for your posts - they've been very informative to an observer with no stake in the game (yet)

I will say that I think back to the bad days I've had in my career where I looked to alcohol to escape. Some great times, but some pretty awful times too. Curious how things could have been different if some of us could have had a joint after a rough week, a crap exercise, or a stressful tour.

Maybe one day I will get to (legally) test my theory.

Until then, I'm glad this is helping you guys.  :salute:

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2017, 22:27:38 »
recceguy/BinRat55,

Thank you for your posts - they've been very informative to an observer with no stake in the game (yet)

I will say that I think back to the bad days I've had in my career where I looked to alcohol to escape. Some great times, but some pretty awful times too. Curious how things could have been different if some of us could have had a joint after a rough week, a crap exercise, or a stressful tour.

Maybe one day I will get to (legally) test my theory.

Until then, I'm glad this is helping you guys.  :salute:

Cheers Spectrum, it's appreciated. I'm only interested in passing on what I know and dispelling rumours. If it helps someone make a decision, either way, I'll be satisfied with that.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #124 on: May 05, 2017, 06:28:52 »
recceguy/BinRat55,

Thank you for your posts - they've been very informative to an observer with no stake in the game (yet)

I will say that I think back to the bad days I've had in my career where I looked to alcohol to escape. Some great times, but some pretty awful times too. Curious how things could have been different if some of us could have had a joint after a rough week, a crap exercise, or a stressful tour.

Maybe one day I will get to (legally) test my theory.

Until then, I'm glad this is helping you guys.  :salute:

Thanks Spectrum for sharing and your sentiment. Just like Recce I too am only interested in helping people understand and hopefully remove some stigma attached to this course of treatment. I always say - my results are mine and mine alone, but how can 10 billion molecules be wrong!

I am always ready to share my experiences and how I cope.
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake - Napoleon Bonaparte