Author Topic: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge  (Read 3912 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« on: June 03, 2017, 18:04:25 »
Armed police are on the scene.This is breaking news...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40146916

Police are responding to reports that a van has hit a number of pedestrians on London Bridge in central London.
Witnesses have said that armed officers are understood to be at the scene after a white transit van mounted the pavement before driving into people.
The Met Police say they are dealing with an incident on the bridge and "multiple resources" are in attendance.
Transport for London said the bridge has been closed in both directions due to a "major police incident".

- mod edit to add date to thread title -
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 19:57:27 by milnews.ca »

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2017, 20:01:36 »
Keep in mind the usual attached caveats ...

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2017, 22:44:50 »
There are reports of citizens throwing chairs at the attackers after the unarmed police retreated. Although it didnt take long for the armed police to arrive on scene. In a situation like that you have to be ready to defend yourself until the cavalry arrives.

Offline Brihard

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2017, 22:58:03 »
Police now confirm:
- 'The' suspects (3) shot and killed by police within eight minutes of the attack beginning.
- 'Further inquiries' being made on whether there are additional suspects.
- Suspects had mock IED vests.

So it reads as if the threat is in fact stopped.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2017, 23:05:49 »
There are reports of citizens throwing chairs at the attackers after the unarmed police retreated. Although it didnt take long for the armed police to arrive on scene. In a situation like that you have to be ready to defend yourself until the cavalry arrives.

Not all the unarmed police retreated, many were pictured putting themselves between the knifemen who had the visible mock-Suicide vests on and civilians, despite only being armed with their batons and close range pepper spray.

Not to mention the guy who chased the attackers, throwing pint glasses at them and managed to save a few drunk girls by distracting them as they attacked the girls.

Offline Brihard

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2017, 23:10:54 »
Britain is going to need to take a hard look at whether it still makes sense for police to not all be armed. While the odds of any one individual officer ever needing to fire their weapon will be slim, it would greatly increase the likelihood of a rapid intervention with sufficient force to stop an active threat in these instances. While Britain's policing model has largely sufficed for most crime (although we have seemed armed officers increasing in number and availability), police are increasingly going to be looked to to be the security against attacks such as these. Police should never be in the business of getting into fair fights, and the only way to have an advantage over a knife is with a gun.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2017, 23:19:44 »
Britain is going to need to take a hard look at whether it still makes sense for police to not all be armed. While the odds of any one individual officer ever needing to fire their weapon will be slim, it would greatly increase the likelihood of a rapid intervention with sufficient force to stop an active threat in these instances. While Britain's policing model has largely sufficed for most crime (although we have seemed armed officers increasing in number and availability), police are increasingly going to be looked to to be the security against attacks such as these. Police should never be in the business of getting into fair fights, and the only way to have an advantage over a knife is with a gun.

I don't think arming our general officers is a good move.

We are vastly improving the numbers of AFOs, and ARV units, 10x the patrol and presence. However we're not doing it rapidly enough and we started the program too late to cover this attack.

However maybe putting one AFO into every police patrol or per area/per x amount of officers would be a idea, armed with just a Glock or other sidearm incase of something like this.

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2017, 23:35:52 »
Inclined to agree with you Brihard. Think the UK really needs to take a look at the unarmed police issue. The violence in Europe and the UK is getting worse, not better.

Carbine sized  308 might  improve odds against weaponized vehicles.
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2017, 23:41:32 »
I don't think arming our general officers is a good move.

We are vastly improving the numbers of AFOs, and ARV units, 10x the patrol and presence. However we're not doing it rapidly enough and we started the program too late to cover this attack.

However maybe putting one AFO into every police patrol or per area/per x amount of officers would be a idea, armed with just a Glock or other sidearm incase of something like this.

A Remington Defender in every car would be a big help.  When seconds count, fire support is minutes away.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline Brihard

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2017, 23:44:09 »
I don't think arming our general officers is a good move.

I do, but I'm just a soldier and a cop in an urban centre with specific training for dealing with exactly this kind of active threat.

If even one police officer was in contact with these attackers before any armed officers were, and if even one civilian was injured subsequent to that contact, then that officer, if armed, could have prevented harm to the public, and should have been properly equipped to do so.

For police, the availability of firearms is simply an occupational health and safety issue. Britain, it appears, can no longer afford the luxury of waiting for armed officers to arrive on scene.


Carbine sized  308 might  improve odds against weaponized vehicles.

Hard to say.. Realistically nay firearm carried will need to be appropriate to the vast majority of police encounters, not specifically tailored to this threat. If the point of guns is to stop a moving vehicle, then that's a different ball game - and really it's still not a great idea.

I've looked at a bunch of these attacks now, and I walked the ground at Nice a few days after it happened there. That one was a rare exception in how long it went on, and in that case the vehicle was actually stopped by a combination of police force and by damage sustained in running so much over. In most instances, the vehicles are stopped because the drivers either crash them, or voluntarily exist to continue the attack on foot. Realistically, a rogue vehicle will probably be only effectively and quickly stopped by putting another vehicle in front of it to immobilize it. The use of firearms, then, would be to respond to the occupants, who will likely remain an active threat until stopped.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2017, 23:50:27 »
A couple of deer slugs through a door panel does a great job of slowing a vehicle down, I'd imagine.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2017, 23:53:40 »
An SAS unit was deployed by helicopter pretty rapidly.

Offline Brihard

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2017, 23:59:45 »
A couple of deer slugs through a door panel does a great job of slowing a vehicle down, I'd imagine.

Only if the driver is struck an incapacitated. Good luck making that shot... Better be sure of your backstop.

Guns are a terrible option for stopping vehicles. Sometimes the terrible option is still your best one.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2017, 00:06:03 »
I thought it was implied that through the door panel would be the most direct route to the driver's inner workings. If it's what you've got, it's what you use.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2017, 00:32:12 »
I've stopped a gentlemen in a speeding car with some liberaly placed fmj 7.62 rounds.  Maybe not the best option in a friendly urban environment but when I think of the easy of access of vehicles combined with how destructive they are I'm leaving towards more heavy handed methods of stopping those jerks.

Cracking down on extremists and turning that PC afraid to be called racist stuff would be effective too I think.

Maybe explore more police forces switching to 300blk in their ar15s or something.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2017, 00:53:52 »
I've stopped a gentlemen in a speeding car with some liberaly placed fmj 7.62 rounds.  Maybe not the best option in a friendly urban environment but when I think of the easy of access of vehicles combined with how destructive they are I'm leaving towards more heavy handed methods of stopping those jerks.

Cracking down on extremists and turning that PC afraid to be called racist stuff would be effective too I think.

Maybe explore more police forces switching to 300blk in their ar15s or something.

Yup, but that'll be rare circumstances- and I bet in your case you had a belt fed. Assume anything police are carrying will be semiautomatic and a pistol or rifle (or still potentially shotgun). Police have to be far more cognizant of their backstop than soldiers in a war zone, it's just a different legal picture, and that definitely impacts what can be procured. Is it possible to incapacitate a driver with fire? Absolutely. It's just not likely to work, and there's a host of police experience and resulting policy coming from same.

More I'd like to say on the issue of stopping vehicles, but not on these means.

I thought it was implied that through the door panel would be the most direct route to the driver's inner workings. If it's what you've got, it's what you use.

Sure, but hitting the driver does not inherently mean incapacitation. Unless you hit the brain/spinal cord, or they rapidly bleed out, you won't get a physical stop. Now, you may get a psychological stop- either quitting (unlikely), bailing out of the vehicle (possible) or getting distracted and crashing (more possible).

I'm not saying guns aren't a tool that can be used to stop cars. Sure they can. A screwdriver can be used as a hammer in some circumstances. I'm just saying you don't equip with guns to stop vehicles (in this context), you equip with guns to stop humans.

I think the best bet is target hardening. Configure more open roads such that there are physical barriers to driving up on sidewalks, across medians, etc. make it more likely to crash or get stuck. So we can shoot you in the face more easily.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 00:59:57 by Brihard »
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2017, 01:45:11 »
Great point. Yes to the belt but it was a standard length burst  :camo:

Interesting idea about making urban areas harder targets  (I love walls and fortifications) but I think the sheer scope of modifying urban centers like that would be too expensive and chaotic.  A new city might lend itself well to that design though.

Any bets on if the attackers were 'known to the police' or had suspicious neighbours afraid to speak up?

A bit of a tangent but do you think police need a heavier caliber than a 5.56 (encompassing regular work and stuff like this)?
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2017, 03:00:10 »
I guess the best bet trying to take out a vehicle going at speed with the kind of rounds Armed Police carry, is the engine block. But its not a action to plan on, besides the fact its unlikely for police to respond before the vehicle crashes (Nice was a very long situation).

With regards making these areas a hard target, thats something thats been slowly going on for the last few years in the UK. Its not obvious stuff like concrete blocks or dragon teeth, but benches that are made out of concrete that go deep into the ground, metal bus stops, reinforcing street signs and making it much harder to 1. drive into pedestrian areas and 2. stay in these areas.

Obviously I'm not a expert in these areas so I'm not going to try to claim to be, I just like to research what measure are going on and how the Police/authorities respond to these incidents.

I think the creation of the CTSFOs is a good thing, for those unaware the way Armed Police works in the UK is three levels of qualification that have different jobs, the entry level being Authorised Firearm Officer (AFO) who are trained to carry rifles and sidearms, patrol in Armed Response Vehicles and respond to incidents as required. Specialist Firearms Officers (SFOs) build upon this training to conduct more specialist stuff such as raids and hostage situations etc. Now with Counter-Terrorist Specialist Firearms Officers (CTSFOs) they're building regional teams that train solely for CT incidents and responses, with much upgraded equipment and weaponry, to a extremely high level of training (training and operating with UKSF).

I think that its important to get CTSFO units rolled out to every region in the UK, as currently just London and Manchester have them I believe, with Scotland next on the list. That way theres a dedicated unit with the appropriate skills, training and equipment to deal with these incidents, in a good response time.

Jarnhamar, depending on the Police Force the firearms officers work in, they get different weapons, for example CTSFOs use the SIG MCX 5.56mm as standard, with some larger calibre rifles embedded, where as some Forces still roll with MP5s and SG550s. Although you won't find larger calibres being carried in armed response vehicles. Maybe they need some sort of anti-vehicle capability with these attacks on the rise. Prehaps using some sort of specialist 40mm projectile in their 40mm launchers?

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2017, 09:17:55 »
Some of the latest ...

And, to bring just a tiny spark of levity to a pretty F#$%^&*d up event, in the midst of the fracas, at least one Londoner keeps his head ...

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2017, 11:35:48 »
>a van has hit a number of pedestrians

I greatly enjoy the phrasing used by the media in the initial stages of these attacks.  Looking forward to the arrest of the van, the truck, the firearms, etc.
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2017, 12:17:09 »
Inclined to agree with you Brihard. Think the UK really needs to take a look at the unarmed police issue. The violence in Europe and the UK is getting worse, not better.

Carbine sized  308 might  improve odds against weaponized vehicles.

Even better, and more proactive? A larger, more effective network of snitches and 'deep cover' under cover operators.
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2017, 12:48:55 »
Even better, and more proactive? A larger, more effective network of snitches and 'deep cover' under cover operators.

I am convinced its a matter of time before we see more of that here.
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2017, 12:57:25 »
This from the Metro Police via Twitter:
Quote
12 arrests in connection with last night's attacks in #LondonBridge & #BoroughMarket ...
This update, from the Metro Police (highilghts mine) ...
Quote
Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley, provides updated statement following the terror attacks in London Bridge and Borough Market.

He said:

"The investigation is progressing at pace, and officers from the Met’s Counter Terrorism Command, the National Counter Terrorism Policing network are working relentlessly with UK intelligence partners to piece together exactly what occurred.

"We have already made significant progress, but of course, there remains much more to do.

"We are making significant progress in identifying the three attackers, and that there were no other suspects at the scene, when the attack was carried out.

"Work is ongoing to understand more about them, their connections and whether they were assisted or supported by anyone else. As I think you are aware there are searches ongoing in east London, and 12 arrests have been made. There is of course more to do, and we will work relentlessly to establish the facts.

"We have established that the van used during the attack, a white Renault van - was recently hired by one of the attackers.

"Our understanding is growing and as we currently understand it the van entered London Bridge at 21:58 travelling from the North to the South side of the river. The van mounted the pavement, and collided with pedestrians before being abandoned, where the attackers, armed with knives, continued into the Borough Market area, stabbing numerous people.

"The attackers were then confronted by the firearms officers and I can confirm that eight police firearms officers discharged their weapons. Whilst this will be subject to thorough investigation by the IPCC our initial assessment is that in the region of 50 rounds were discharged by 8 officers. The three attackers were shot dead.

The situation these officers were confronted with was critical – a matter of life and death – three armed men, wearing what appeared to be suicide belts, had already attacked and killed members of the public and had to be stopped immediately.

"Indeed I am not surprised that faced with what they must have feared were three suicide bombers - the firearms officers fired an unprecedented number of rounds to be completely confident they had neutralised those threats. I am humbled by the bravery of an officer who will rush towards a potential suicide bomber thinking only of protecting others.

"As the officers confronted the terrorists – and were shot – a member of the public also suffered gunshot wounds. Although we do not believe the injuries to critical in nature, they are in hospital receiving medical attention. We will of course keep you updated on that.

"Seven people have been killed, in addition to the three attackers. Work to inform the next of kin of the victims is ongoing – this may take some time, as we believe some of these victims are from abroad.

"36 people remain in hospital, suffering from a range of injuries – some of which are extremely serious. 21 remain in a critical condition.

"You will have heard earlier today about the British Transport Police who sustained injuries in the attack. I can confirm that an off duty Met-Officer, based on Southwark borough, was caught up in the attack. Fortunately he has not suffered life threatening injuries, but he remains in hospital in a serious condition.

"The investigation team are taking statements from hundreds of witnesses and I again appeal for anyone with information or footage of the incident to contact police.

"The cordons in and around the London Bridge and Borough Market area will remain in place, and we encourage the public to avoid the area as our investigation is ongoing. This will have an impact on travel arrangements as we head in to Monday morning, and would ask everyone to check with their travel operators and seek alternative routes wherever possible.

"The public can expect to see additional police – both armed and unarmed officers - across the Capital. And our security and policing plans for events are being reviewed. The public will also see an increased physical measures in order to keep public safe on London’s bridges.

Finally, I ask the public to remain calm but vigilant - and if you see anything suspicious, no matter how insignificant you might think it is, please contact the anti-terrorism hotline on 0800 789 321. It may be a vital piece of information."
This statement from the PM* - also attached if link doesn't work ...
Quote

Last night, our country fell victim to a brutal terrorist attack once again. As a result I have just chaired a meeting of the government’s emergency committee and I want to update you with the latest information about the attack.

Shortly before 10:10 yesterday evening, the Metropolitan Police received reports that a white van had struck pedestrians on London Bridge. It continued to drive from London Bridge to Borough Market, where 3 terrorists left the van and attacked innocent and unarmed civilians with blades and knives.

All 3 were wearing what appeared to be explosive vests, but the police have established that this clothing was fake and worn only to spread panic and fear.

As so often in such serious situations, the police responded with great courage and great speed. Armed officers from the Metropolitan Police and the City of London Police arrived at Borough Market within moments, and shot and killed the 3 suspects. The terrorists were confronted and shot by armed officers within 8 minutes of the police receiving the first emergency call.

Seven people have died as a result of the attack, in addition to the 3 suspects shot dead by the police. Forty-eight people are being treated in several hospitals across London. Many have life-threatening conditions.

On behalf of the people of London, and on behalf of the whole country, I want to thank and pay tribute to the professionalism and bravery of the police and the emergency services – and the courage of members of the public who defended themselves and others from the attackers. And our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and with their friends, families and loved ones.

This is, as we all know, the third terrorist attack Britain has experienced in the last 3 months. In March, a similar attack took place, just around the corner on Westminster Bridge. Two weeks ago, the Manchester Arena was attacked by a suicide bomber. And now London has been struck once more.

And at the same time, the security and intelligence agencies and police have disrupted 5 credible plots since the Westminster attack in March.

In terms of their planning and execution, the recent attacks are not connected. But we believe we are experiencing a new trend in the threat we face, as terrorism breeds terrorism, and perpetrators are inspired to attack not only on the basis of carefully-constructed plots after years of planning and training – and not even as lone attackers radicalised online – but by copying one another and often using the crudest of means of attack.

We cannot and must not pretend that things can continue as they are. Things need to change, and they need to change in 4 important ways.

First, while the recent attacks are not connected by common networks, they are connected in one important sense. They are bound together by the single, evil ideology of Islamist extremism that preaches hatred, sows division, and promotes sectarianism. It is an ideology that claims our Western values of freedom, democracy and human rights are incompatible with the religion of Islam. It is an ideology that is a perversion of Islam and a perversion of the truth.

Defeating this ideology is one of the great challenges of our time. But it cannot be defeated through military intervention alone. It will not be defeated through the maintenance of a permanent, defensive counter-terrorism operation, however skilful its leaders and practitioners. It will only be defeated when we turn people’s minds away from this violence – and make them understand that our values – pluralistic, British values – are superior to anything offered by the preachers and supporters of hate.

Second, we cannot allow this ideology the safe space it needs to breed. Yet that is precisely what the internet – and the big companies that provide internet-based services – provide. We need to work with allied, democratic governments to reach international agreements that regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremism and terrorist planning. And we need to do everything we can at home to reduce the risks of extremism online.

Third, while we need to deprive the extremists of their safe spaces online, we must not forget about the safe spaces that continue to exist in the real world. Yes, that means taking military action to destroy ISIS in Iraq and Syria. But it also means taking action here at home. While we have made significant progress in recent years, there is – to be frank – far too much tolerance of extremism in our country.

So we need to become far more robust in identifying it and stamping it out – across the public sector and across society. That will require some difficult and often embarrassing conversations, but the whole of our country needs to come together to take on this extremism – and we need to live our lives not in a series of separated, segregated communities but as one truly United Kingdom.

Fourth, we have a robust counter-terrorism strategy that has proved successful over many years. But as the nature of the threat we face becomes more complex, more fragmented, more hidden, especially online, the strategy needs to keep up. So in light of what we are learning about the changing threat, we need to review Britain’s counter-terrorism strategy to make sure the police and security services have all the powers they need.

And if we need to increase the length of custodial sentences for terrorism-related offences, even apparently less serious offences, that is what we will do.

Since the emergence of the threat from Islamist-inspired terrorism, our country has made significant progress in disrupting plots and protecting the public. But it is time to say enough is enough. Everybody needs to go about their lives as they normally would. Our society should continue to function in accordance with our values. But when it comes to taking on extremism and terrorism, things need to change.

As a mark of respect the 2 political parties have suspended our national campaigns for today. But violence can never be allowed to disrupt the democratic process. So those campaigns will resume in full tomorrow. And the general election will go ahead as planned on Thursday.

As a country, our response must be as it has always been when we have been confronted by violence. We must come together, we must pull together, and united we will take on and defeat our enemies.
* - A reminder:  Theresa May was the Home Secretary - "top cop" in grossly oversimplified headline-speak, Public Safety Minister in current Canadian cabinet-position-speak - from 2010 until 2016 (when she became PM).  It also appears her time as HomeSec was as part of what we would call in Canada Tory minority governments.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
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