Author Topic: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M  (Read 19930 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pbi

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 52,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,945
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2018, 10:28:10 »
A lot, their jungles just aren't very close to their main enemy, and the primary threat to Australia's sphere of influence in that area: Indonesia.

They have an interesting alliance with Singapore too.
Yes: they used to call the Indonesian-based enemy  "Mesaurians".
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 205,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,931
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2018, 18:31:05 »
Yes: they used to call the Indonesian-based enemy  "Mesaurians".

I met some guys who had been in various dust ups against the Indonesians. They were apparently tough  jungle fighters who like to deploy their 60mm mortars immediately during contacts, which was alarming to say the least.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2018, 18:45:49 »
I met some guys who had been in various dust ups against the Indonesians. They were apparently tough  jungle fighters who like to deploy their 60mm mortars immediately during contacts, which was alarming to say the least.

Go big or go home?

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 205,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,931
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2018, 22:51:29 »
Go big or go home?

Definitely. They had M79s apparently but were usually instantly outgunned, so they apparently took to launching an immediate assault so they could close the distance quickly before the mortars could range on them.

I heard similar experiences from guys who faced enemy troops equipped with AK 47s in the jungle. Up close, 7.62 x 39mm is the same caliber and has a pretty similar capability as a C6, so they had to develop drills where the C6 was near the front of the 'snake' so they could match the bad guys' firepower and close quickly.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 118,025
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,519
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2018, 11:45:54 »
I met some guys who had been in various dust ups against the Indonesians. They were apparently tough  jungle fighters who like to deploy their 60mm mortars immediately during contacts, which was alarming to say the least.

Clearly they didn't get the memo that infantry run mortars are obsolete........

Offline Tango2Bravo

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 48,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,765
  • All your base are belong to us.
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2018, 15:30:54 »
Tangent. I went through the original article, which was fun to do after two years.

I recently served for a year in a UN mission. I was an unarmed patroller for four months (great fun) and then Chief of Operations for eight months (hard work). We were a small observer mission OPCON to a much larger armed mission (a divisional structure with 10,000 troops, a helo sqn and a naval task group). I think that our military is actually well-prepared for peacekeeping, although of course we'd have to conduct training for a mission. You'd do that for any mission.

UN peacekeeping has evolved since the 90s. Our experience in Afghanistan would not be a hindrance in multi-dimensional peacekeeping operations. Tough, disciplined, well-led and well-equipped troops will always be an asset to the UN wherever they come from. Three of the battalions in the force that I worked alongside were from NATO nations with long-standing commitments to Afghanistan. I was always happy to see them. I reflected at the time that a Canadian BG would have done extremely well, as would a Canadian Bde as a Sector HQ and our Div as the core of the Force HQ. The BG would have to go through a training program that would start with conventional combined arms training and culminate in a realistic UN-based exercise, but we are very good at generating and training battle groups.

The senior leadership and staff officers would benefit from some professional development (PD) regarding UN integrated missions and the vital role of UN civilian staff on such missions - nothing too difficult for leaders trained in the comprehensive approach for Afghanistan. Some officers and NCOs would benefit from more detailed PD (those in the G9 world) but again, nothing too complicated. If I was able to navigate the integrated HQ then anybody can.

It would be an adjustment to be an impartial UN peacekeeper, but there is a road to deployment to allow you to get in the mindset. I am not saying that we should or should not do this, but rather that our leadership and troops would excel at it.

Back to talking about mortars in the Malayan jungles... :D
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline pbi

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 52,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,945
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2018, 09:09:40 »
... I think that our military is actually well-prepared for peacekeeping, although of course we'd have to conduct training for a mission. You'd do that for any mission.

UN peacekeeping has evolved since the 90s. Our experience in Afghanistan would not be a hindrance in multi-dimensional peacekeeping operations. Tough, disciplined, well-led and well-equipped troops will always be an asset to the UN wherever they come from.

It would be an adjustment to be an impartial UN peacekeeper, but there is a road to deployment to allow you to get in the mindset. I am not saying that we should or should not do this, but rather that our leadership and troops would excel at it.

I am also 100% sure these observations are correct, even though I am well past my best-before date. These were always my observations on my UN missions. I really don't see how anything else can be true. I recently read an article concerning the UN's intentions to improve the security of it's peacekeepers.The article included this paragraph:

Quote
These include (1) changing mindsets so that personnel are aware of the risks and empowered to take the initiative to deter, prevent, and respond to attacks; (2) improving capacities so that the mission and personnel are equipped and trained to operate in high-threat environments; (3) achieving a “threat sensitive mission footprint” that is aligned with mission mandates and limits the exposure of the mission to threat; and (4) enhancing accountability to ensure that those able to take actions to prevent fatalities and injuries live up to their responsibilities.

Or, in other words, pretty much what you would expect from a disciplined professional army with a solid basis in combat training (as T2B suggests), but with the usual TMST to orient to the task at hand.

IMHO it is very important to consider the approach and mindset that Prof Dorn (and others like him...) likely come from.  I will hazard a guess that this includes a visceral opposition to the Afghan War; a dislike and suspicion of the US military; and an almost religious view of the UN. I could be wrong but I bet I'm not.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 205,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,931
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2018, 10:34:31 »
Tangent. I went through the original article, which was fun to do after two years.

I recently served for a year in a UN mission. I was an unarmed patroller for four months (great fun) and then Chief of Operations for eight months (hard work). We were a small observer mission OPCON to a much larger armed mission (a divisional structure with 10,000 troops, a helo sqn and a naval task group). I think that our military is actually well-prepared for peacekeeping, although of course we'd have to conduct training for a mission. You'd do that for any mission.

UN peacekeeping has evolved since the 90s. Our experience in Afghanistan would not be a hindrance in multi-dimensional peacekeeping operations. Tough, disciplined, well-led and well-equipped troops will always be an asset to the UN wherever they come from. Three of the battalions in the force that I worked alongside were from NATO nations with long-standing commitments to Afghanistan. I was always happy to see them. I reflected at the time that a Canadian BG would have done extremely well, as would a Canadian Bde as a Sector HQ and our Div as the core of the Force HQ. The BG would have to go through a training program that would start with conventional combined arms training and culminate in a realistic UN-based exercise, but we are very good at generating and training battle groups.

The senior leadership and staff officers would benefit from some professional development (PD) regarding UN integrated missions and the vital role of UN civilian staff on such missions - nothing too difficult for leaders trained in the comprehensive approach for Afghanistan. Some officers and NCOs would benefit from more detailed PD (those in the G9 world) but again, nothing too complicated. If I was able to navigate the integrated HQ then anybody can.

It would be an adjustment to be an impartial UN peacekeeper, but there is a road to deployment to allow you to get in the mindset. I am not saying that we should or should not do this, but rather that our leadership and troops would excel at it.

Back to talking about mortars in the Malayan jungles... :D

Our military has always been prepared however, as we've seen in places like Somalia and FRY, our political masters - and the Canadian public to whom they answer - are not.

As this article suggests, one caution about Malaya (if I can head back into the green vomit briefly) is that:

"To attempt to borrow lessons from the Emergency is to ignore the fact that many of the strategies practiced by the British would be considered abhorrent by Western liberal sensibilities today, including the forcible resettlement of populations."

http://warisboring.com/were-getting-the-malaysia-counterinsurgency-all-wrong/
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline pbi

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 52,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,945
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2018, 10:55:58 »
Quote
As this article suggests, one caution about Malaya (if I can head back into the green vomit briefly) is that:

It's probably also worth repeating that Malaya presented a set of unique circumstances which probably won't be repeated exactly again, and which IMHO tended to work in favour of the British. But, definitely one of the very key factors that aided the British was an army consisting either of units which were composed wholly of professionals; or of National Servicemen led by cadres of professional officers and NCOs.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 118,025
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,519
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2018, 14:42:24 »
Not to mention with that resettlement came a path of citizenship and land rights, which few of the people moved enjoyed prior to Emergency.

Offline pbi

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 52,125
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,945
Re: Military Ill-prepared for Peacekeeping - G&M
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2018, 12:19:12 »
Not to mention with that resettlement came a path of citizenship and land rights, which few of the people moved enjoyed prior to Emergency.

Definitely: it pulled some of the rug out from under the guerillas, along with the announcement of independence.  A few more:

-the guerillas were mainly ethnic Chinese, who were not well liked or trusted by the Malay people: it was not really a "popular uprising" of Malays;

-the land mass of Malaya was relatively easy to isolate, thus making resupply and safe haven more difficult for the guerillas; and

-the British already had a long-standing colonial administration including police structures. This  was disrupted by the Japanese occupation, but it gave the Brits a solid base of  corporate knowledge and understanding which was an advantage.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...