Author Topic: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers  (Read 56489 times)

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Offline Loachman

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #225 on: July 13, 2018, 07:50:30 »
How about asking the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador for their opinions before declaring this to be a Good Idea.

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #226 on: July 13, 2018, 09:05:38 »
6(2) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms says that "permanent residents" of Canada have full mobility rights, so presumably, those awaiting a refugee hearing could sent by the government to live where ever it deems best.


Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #227 on: July 13, 2018, 09:14:39 »
How about asking the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador for their opinions before declaring this to be a Good Idea.
Sure, of course.

Hello citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador. Would you like to take in working age men and women into your province that you cannot seem to attract yourself, leading to a ever increasing elderly population and fewer young working age people paying taxes to support them as a last ditch chance to turn around your horrible demographic crisis or would you rather slide closer and closer into bankruptcy that you for some odd reason expect the rest of Canada to bail you out for?
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Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #228 on: July 13, 2018, 09:17:31 »
6(2) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms says that "permanent residents" of Canada have full mobility rights, so presumably, those awaiting a refugee hearing could sent by the government to live where ever it deems best.
Refugees need to apply to become a permanent resident. In the months it takes to get accepted, ship them to Newfoundland and Labrador.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #229 on: July 13, 2018, 09:38:08 »
Altair is correct: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-card/understand-pr-status.html

In the meantime, you can kill two birds with a single stone: Improve NL's financial situation with Federal funding - both to support the refugees and to increase the number of Federal civil servants in the form of more Immigration services officials and Immigration Board members living there.  ;D

Offline Furniture

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #230 on: July 13, 2018, 09:46:07 »
Refugees need to apply to become a permanent resident. In the months it takes to get accepted, ship them to Newfoundland and Labrador.

Smart use of money, there was a recent article talking about how most of the Syrian refugees sponsored in NL have left to live in major centers.

Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #231 on: July 13, 2018, 11:00:15 »
Smart use of money, there was a recent article talking about how most of the Syrian refugees sponsored in NL have left to live in major centers.
I would tie any long term federal assistance to living in Newfoundland and Labrador. Carrot.

If they choose to leave Newfoundland and Labrador, I would prosecute them for entering Canada illegally. Stick.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #232 on: July 13, 2018, 11:53:28 »
"Working age men and women" need to be provided with jobs in order to support themselves and the social services that they will require.

How does one provide those?

How would it be any easier to provide housing, schools, medical facilities there than in major cities?

This province is becoming increasingly concerned about bankruptcy. How would dumping a load of dependent people into that situation help?

How would a relatively large number of people with vastly different cultures, customs, and practices be accepted in comparatively small municipalities? People tend to resent they accustomed ways of life being disrupted/destroyed.

Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #233 on: July 13, 2018, 12:37:05 »
"Working age men and women" need to be provided with jobs in order to support themselves and the social services that they will require.

How does one provide those?
Naturally, however, I do trust that these refugees are pretty resourceful.  https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/22/immigrants-canadians-business-statistics-canada_n_9519690.html

"The StatsCan report, which was compiled in partnership with researchers at UBC and the Institute for Research in Public Policy, is the first to address "business ownership and job-creation activities of immigrants," it says.

Its main finding was that immigrants, including refugees, tend to surpass Canadians at private business ownership and self-employment — proportionally, anyway.

The report drew its conclusions by contrasting immigrants who arrived in various years against "comparison groups" that included mostly Canadians, and people who moved to Canada before 1980."
Quote



How would it be any easier to provide housing, schools, medical facilities there than in major cities?
That one is easier to answer. With Newfoundlands population stalled or shrinking, there are more available living spaces, school spots, and instead of closing medical facilities, these facilities can provide services for this new population
Quote

This province is becoming increasingly concerned about bankruptcy. How would dumping a load of dependent people into that situation help?
Once these people are up and on their feet, they cease being dependent and start being productive member of society, something Newfoundland is in desperate need of
Quote

How would a relatively large number of people with vastly different cultures, customs, and practices be accepted in comparatively small municipalities? People tend to resent they accustomed ways of life being disrupted/destroyed.
Well, I guess they would rather be bankrupt then.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #234 on: July 13, 2018, 14:17:00 »
>Its main finding was that immigrants, including refugees, tend to surpass Canadians at private business ownership and self-employment — proportionally, anyway.

Even a resourceful person needs opportunity.  If immigrants tend to wind up in major population centres and immigrants tend to do well for themselves, I suppose the latter is related to the former.
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Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #235 on: July 13, 2018, 15:00:49 »
>Its main finding was that immigrants, including refugees, tend to surpass Canadians at private business ownership and self-employment — proportionally, anyway.

Even a resourceful person needs opportunity.  If immigrants tend to wind up in major population centres and immigrants tend to do well for themselves, I suppose the latter is related to the former.
Well, Newfoundland needs to change its motto to the land of opportunity then, so when new immigrants land there, they will be in the new found land of opportunity.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 15:29:05 by Altair »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #236 on: July 13, 2018, 15:27:10 »
Naturally, however, I do trust that these refugees are pretty resourceful.  https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/22/immigrants-canadians-business-statistics-canada_n_9519690.html

Some are. Some, not so much.

The Syrian family next door to me are in the former group. The father and two oldest sons are working, and those two sons plus the other children at school are speaking passable English after being here for a couple of years. The youngest children cannot, yet. The father can get by, with difficulty.

Their jobs are low-paying and unskilled, but they support the family and will enable the younger children to get better educations and do well.

They were privately sponsored, and have been very well supported by their sponsors. They still receive a fair amount, but that is largely social interaction from their sponsors/now friends.

They are a good family, very happy and grateful to be here, are determined not to be a burden, and want to pay back in any way that they can.

And, from time-to-time, they feed me.

I have read numerous tales of others, government-sponsored, who have been essentially left to fend for themselves after the support period ended (one year, if I remember).

It's not easy to be "resourceful" when one does not know the language and cannot communicate, when one does not know the laws and customs, and when one has little financial or social support.

"The StatsCan report, which was compiled in partnership with researchers at UBC and the Institute for Research in Public Policy, is the first to address "business ownership and job-creation activities of immigrants," it says.

Its main finding was that immigrants, including refugees, tend to surpass Canadians at private business ownership and self-employment — proportionally, anyway.

Yes, generally out of sheer need plus no background in the host culture that would enable them to find more traditional employment, coupled with some imagination, a particular talent or skill, a hospitable environment, above-average drive, and a fair amount of good fortune in many cases. How many Nigerian restaurants can Newfoundland support? Vietnamese restaurants sprang up all over Canada following their arrival. I quickly became addicted. Most of the owners (generally a couple, with one cooking and the other serving, sometimes aided by older children) spoke fairly good to excellent English or French when they arrived. I found another excellent one in Louisville Kentucky in the early nineties. Dinner was often accompanied by some fascinating and educational conversations.

I found an Afghan restaurant in Downsview near the former base a year or two ago, adjacent to a Vietnamese restaurant that I frequented while at LFCA HQ, and had a hard time deciding (I opted for the Afghan restaurant, and would definitely eat there again).

Old joke: How does one find a doctor in Toronto? Call a cab/order a pizza.

Success/self-sufficiency does not come easily, can take years, and is never guaranteed.

There is always the option of crime, though. We have such wonderful diversity in gangs now in many areas, now.

Have you ever lived in a non-English-speaking country? How well do you think that you would do in one? How would you survive?

With Newfoundlands population stalled or shrinking, there are more available living spaces, school spots, and instead of closing medical facilities, these facilities can provide services for this new population

And why is the population stalled or shrinking? Reduced services, increased taxation, unwillingness of businesses to undertake investment perceived as risky, and inability to attract and/or retain educated/trained talented people who could find better employment in cheaper, better-served, and more desirable areas (the latter almost seems like the current situation in the CF).

How are unqualified people who cannot communicate adequately and do not understand their host society going to (someday) pay for these services with basic labour/service jobs, and who, with a stalled or shrinking population, is going to employ them/support their businesses/eat at their restaurants?

Who pays for their needs until they find "success", or if they don't?

And, if they do, what's to stop them from also leaving for better places?

Toronto is at its limit. How many can Newfoundland and Labrador, with fewer resources, support?

Well, I guess they would rather be bankrupt then.

People are not happy when made to feel like strangers in their own land. Resentment of excessive uncontrolled immigration is building in Great Britain and Europe because of that. A population can only absorb so many so quickly before problems, up to and including violent backlash, occur.

John Tory must be a complete idiot, though, if he cannot figure out how to solve this simple little puzzle.

Perhaps you should seek his job in the next Toronto election.

Or seek election in Newfoundland and Labrador, where you can restyle it as you just suggested, thereby curing all of its ills.

Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #237 on: July 13, 2018, 15:32:13 »
Some are. Some, not so much.

The Syrian family next door to me are in the former group. The father and two oldest sons are working, and those two sons plus the other children at school are speaking passable English after being here for a couple of years. The youngest children cannot, yet. The father can get by, with difficulty.

Their jobs are low-paying and unskilled, but they support the family and will enable the younger children to get better educations and do well.

They were privately sponsored, and have been very well supported by their sponsors. They still receive a fair amount, but that is largely social interaction from their sponsors/now friends.

They are a good family, very happy and grateful to be here, are determined not to be a burden, and want to pay back in any way that they can.

And, from time-to-time, they feed me.

I have read numerous tales of others, government-sponsored, who have been essentially left to fend for themselves after the support period ended (one year, if I remember).

It's not easy to be "resourceful" when one does not know the language and cannot communicate, when one does not know the laws and customs, and when one has little financial or social support.

Yes, generally out of sheer need plus no background in the host culture that would enable them to find more traditional employment, coupled with some imagination, a particular talent or skill, a hospitable environment, above-average drive, and a fair amount of good fortune in many cases. How many Nigerian restaurants can Newfoundland support? Vietnamese restaurants sprang up all over Canada following their arrival. I quickly became addicted. Most of the owners (generally a couple, with one cooking and the other serving, sometimes aided by older children) spoke fairly good to excellent English or French when they arrived. I found another excellent one in Louisville Kentucky in the early nineties. Dinner was often accompanied by some fascinating and educational conversations.

I found an Afghan restaurant in Downsview near the former base a year or two ago, adjacent to a Vietnamese restaurant that I frequented while at LFCA HQ, and had a hard time deciding (I opted for the Afghan restaurant, and would definitely eat there again).

Old joke: How does one find a doctor in Toronto? Call a cab/order a pizza.

Success/self-sufficiency does not come easily, can take years, and is never guaranteed.

There is always the option of crime, though. We have such wonderful diversity in gangs now in many areas, now.

Have you ever lived in a non-English-speaking country? How well do you think that you would do in one? How would you survive?

And why is the population stalled or shrinking? Reduced services, increased taxation, unwillingness of businesses to undertake investment perceived as risky, and inability to attract and/or retain educated/trained talented people who could find better employment in cheaper, better-served, and more desirable areas (the latter almost seems like the current situation in the CF).

How are unqualified people who cannot communicate adequately and do not understand their host society going to (someday) pay for these services with basic labour/service jobs, and who, with a stalled or shrinking population, is going to employ them/support their businesses/eat at their restaurants?

Who pays for their needs until they find "success", or if they don't?

And, if they do, what's to stop them from also leaving for better places?

Toronto is at its limit. How many can Newfoundland and Labrador, with fewer resources, support?

People are not happy when made to feel like strangers in their own land. Resentment of excessive uncontrolled immigration is building in Great Britain and Europe because of that. A population can only absorb so many so quickly before problems, up to and including violent backlash, occur.

John Tory must be a complete idiot, though, if he cannot figure out how to solve this simple little puzzle.

Perhaps you should seek his job in the next Toronto election.

Or seek election in Newfoundland and Labrador, where you can restyle it as you just suggested, thereby curing all of its ills.
Serving members cannot run for office, you know that.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #238 on: July 13, 2018, 16:54:15 »
Yes, but you could get out.

You'd make more money as Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador.

And you have all of the answers to their problems.

They'd love you.

Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #239 on: July 16, 2018, 08:06:23 »
Yes, but you could get out.

You'd make more money as Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador.

And you have all of the answers to their problems.

They'd love you.
Fair enough.

I do plan to enter politics when I get out, at the local level anyways, but I'll probably just stick to Quebec.
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Online mariomike

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #240 on: July 16, 2018, 08:57:32 »
John Tory must be a complete idiot,

Anyone who thinks they know better have until July 27 to register to run against him.




Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #241 on: July 16, 2018, 09:13:29 »
Sure, of course.

Hello citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador. Would you like to take in working age men and women into your province that you cannot seem to attract yourself, leading to a ever increasing elderly population and fewer young working age people paying taxes to support them as a last ditch chance to turn around your horrible demographic crisis or would you rather slide closer and closer into bankruptcy that you for some odd reason expect the rest of Canada to bail you out for?

I see you're live in Quebec and want to enter politics when you get out. You're policy of "shipping them out" to NL will undoubtedly make you very popular there. Also keep in mind the rest of Canada including Newfoundland and Labrador has been bailing out Quebec for many years.
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Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #242 on: July 16, 2018, 09:37:37 »
I see you're live in Quebec and want to enter politics when you get out. You're policy of "shipping them out" to NL will undoubtedly make you very popular there. Also keep in mind the rest of Canada including Newfoundland and Labrador has been bailing out Quebec for many years.
I do not live in quebec now, no.

It's a pragmatic approach to a problem.

Toronto doesn't need them, NFLD and Lab have a aging population and trouble attracting people to live there.

Win win.

Of course it may not work and NFLD may be rushing headfirst into a unstoppable demographic and economic crisis, but it might help, who knows?

As for Quebec, despite the large amount it takes in via equalization, it is the second lowest in per capita payments. 1 200 per person. Manitoba receives more, Nova Scotia receives more, New Brunswick got more, PEI receives the most, so the amount of criticism Quebec receives rings hollow to me. Quebec is the convenient scapegoat, but one never hears about the bailing out of Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or PEI.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #243 on: July 16, 2018, 09:38:37 »
How about one spouse living in Canada on the dole and the other living and working in the US?Seems unfair to your tax payers.

Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #244 on: July 16, 2018, 09:42:49 »
How about one spouse living in Canada on the dole and the other living and working in the US?Seems unfair to your tax payers.
If I had any idea what you were talking about I would respond.
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Offline Remius

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #245 on: July 16, 2018, 09:53:05 »
I do not live in quebec now, no.

It's a pragmatic approach to a problem.

Toronto doesn't need them, NFLD and Lab have a aging population and trouble attracting people to live there.

Win win.

Of course it may not work and NFLD may be rushing headfirst into a unstoppable demographic and economic crisis, but it might help, who knows?

As for Quebec, despite the large amount it takes in via equalization, it is the second lowest in per capita payments. 1 200 per person. Manitoba receives more, Nova Scotia receives more, New Brunswick got more, PEI receives the most, so the amount of criticism Quebec receives rings hollow to me. Quebec is the convenient scapegoat, but one never hears about the bailing out of Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or PEI.

Seems Newfoundland is somewhat open to the idea...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/central-newfoundland-population-refugees-1.4369729

But...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/mun-report-refugee-retention-1.4604320

No jobs and no prospects makes it hard to keep them.

Plus that freak dump of Satan's Cocaine in June likely sent them running for the south.  ;D
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2018, 10:03:48 »
I do not live in quebec now, no.

It's a pragmatic approach to a problem.

Toronto doesn't need them, NFLD and Lab have a aging population and trouble attracting people to live there.

Win win.

Of course it may not work and NFLD may be rushing headfirst into a unstoppable demographic and economic crisis, but it might help, who knows?

As for Quebec, despite the large amount it takes in via equalization, it is the second lowest in per capita payments. 1 200 per person. Manitoba receives more, Nova Scotia receives more, New Brunswick got more, PEI receives the most, so the amount of criticism Quebec receives rings hollow to me. Quebec is the convenient scapegoat, but one never hears about the bailing out of Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or PEI.

Same difference you must be from Quebec then, as was mentioned before you can't make them stay in Newfoundland and the same problems that are causing out-migration will affect the immigrants, this is not a new thing as NL typically does not have many minorities due to isolation, economic and weather factors among others.

Perhaps if Quebec played it straight with Newfoundland IE Renegotiating the Churchill falls Deal or allowing Muskrat falls power to transit through Quebec then things would be better.

Quebec is the biggest scapegoat because typically they're the biggest complainer in pretty much everything. Yes other provinces get bailed out, but you didn't mention them did you? You singled out Newfoundland. Newfoundland can't afford to plow highways at night let alone pay for more immigrants.



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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Altair

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #247 on: July 16, 2018, 10:31:16 »
Same difference you must be from Quebec then, as was mentioned before you can't make them stay in Newfoundland and the same problems that are causing out-migration will affect the immigrants, this is not a new thing as NL typically does not have many minorities due to isolation, economic and weather factors among others.

Perhaps if Quebec played it straight with Newfoundland IE Renegotiating the Churchill falls Deal or allowing Muskrat falls power to transit through Quebec then things would be better.

Quebec is the biggest scapegoat because typically they're the biggest complainer in pretty much everything. Yes other provinces get bailed out, but you didn't mention them did you? You singled out Newfoundland. Newfoundland can't afford to plow highways at night let alone pay for more immigrants.

Isn't that a pickle. NFLD and Lab need more immigrants, yet cannot afford to pay for more immigrants, because it has a aging population which can really only be rectified by more immigrants.
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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #248 on: July 16, 2018, 10:39:14 »
Seems Newfoundland is somewhat open to the idea...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/central-newfoundland-population-refugees-1.4369729

But...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/mun-report-refugee-retention-1.4604320

No jobs and no prospects makes it hard to keep them


To whom are you referring?

‘Plus that freak dump of Satan's Cocaine in June likely sent them running for the south.  ;D



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Offline Remius

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Re: Illegal Border Crossing into Canada - Asylum Seekers
« Reply #249 on: July 16, 2018, 10:41:31 »


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You mean my comment on Satan's cocaine?  Newfoundland had a big snowstorm in June.  That's what I was referring to.   
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