Author Topic: All things Charlottesville (merged)  (Read 112946 times)

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2017, 02:39:36 »
Can we get back on topic and have whom ever is involved in this pissing contest take it to PM's

Can we get back to taking a deep breath and ignoring a couple of fun-poking posts between two evil internet antagonists?

This thread, by nature is crap attitudes, crap opinions, crap arguments discussions, crap answers and crap everything else.
 
That's what's wrong here. Every single word is torn apart to find it's true meaning, every sentence is scrutinized for syntax, grammar, spelling, modern connotation and ancient meanings of the word just in case you have a hidden agenda and ancient and modern  ;) meanings are different. Everyone speaks almost like an active participant. Not strange, seeing as there was only around 500 total lawbreakers, the total of both sides and most from out of state. I'll bet some from out of country. Uh oh,  :Tin-Foil-Hat: maybe even some from here :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Most of us, on Mike's privately owned, he makes the rules, forum, served. Some seeing the elephant and others not. That makes no difference here. EVERYONE here has an opinion, sometimes almost singular. It is their right.

And if Lumber is trying to diffuse things with humour, I'll play along. :).

This thread has already caused enough angst, hard feelings, recriminations. Can someone please make one of those hitler bunker .avi and make me the big guy.

Damn, I just realized, we've had a shitload of trouble with the server. Most is hardware, I gather, but some maybe software. I won't say that this thing of ours' is Mike's hobby. I'm positive, mostly, sometimes, not at all this week that Mike was so thrilled, with his rebellious child, he ran to the woods and rubbed one out.

So, I've decided to raise some money. Wait out, for details.

Anyway, Gap brother, cool your jets. You can probably start ripping jugular veins with your teeth by tomorrow midnight, latest. :salute:



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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2017, 05:36:38 »
I don't think that there has been much rebranding by white supremacists. Just a veneer of propaganda. They're spouting the same old stuff in Charlottesville.

Very enlightening Vice News video here:

https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror

Vice aslo has an interesting article about why there are so many Confederate memorials throughout the States here:

https://news.vice.com/story/confederate-statues-are-all-over-states-that-werent-in-the-confederacy

It's interesting to note that much of this went on in the early 1900's and was concurrent with DW Griffith's 1915 movie "Birth of a Nation" which was responsible for a massive resurgence of the KKK (up to 4 million Americans had joined the Klan by 1924).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Refounding_in_1915

 :cheers:

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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Altair

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2017, 06:10:50 »
I suppose I can come out of my self imposed exile now, knowing that it's not just people arguing with me that gets threads locked down.
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline Lumber

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2017, 07:54:37 »
I suppose I can come out of my self imposed exile now, knowing that it's not just people arguing with me that gets threads locked down.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery!  :rofl:

Can we get back to taking a deep breath and ignoring a couple of fun-poking posts between two evil internet antagonists?

...

And if Lumber is trying to diffuse things with humour, I'll play along. :).

Me?! Sarcasm?! How dare you make such an inflammatory accusation!  ;D

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2017, 08:37:38 »


That's not even close to the same thing.  BLM and ANTIFA exist precisely because of groups like the KKK.

2 wrongs never make a right. If you want people to take your cause seriously, don't burn things, loot, causes riots or assassinate cops for a perceived racial inequality. Peaceful protests worked for women's suffrage and the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

All three of the groups you mentioned are asshats and don't belong in a modern, inclusive society.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2017, 08:45:28 »
I don't think that there has been much rebranding by white supremacists. Just a veneer of propaganda. They're spouting the same old stuff in Charlottesville.

Very enlightening Vice News video here:

https://news.vice.com/story/vice-news-tonight-full-episode-charlottesville-race-and-terror

Vice aslo has an interesting article about why there are so many Confederate memorials throughout the States here:

https://news.vice.com/story/confederate-statues-are-all-over-states-that-werent-in-the-confederacy

It's interesting to note that much of this went on in the early 1900's and was concurrent with DW Griffith's 1915 movie "Birth of a Nation" which was responsible for a massive resurgence of the KKK (up to 4 million Americans had joined the Klan by 1924).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Refounding_in_1915

 :cheers:

This plays further in to the post I made here:

Ever see some major event happen and think, "gee I feel like I've seen this all before?"

These aren't new problems, they are problems we've always faced and they come in waves.  The means are different but the ends are the same.  It's called social cycle theory.   ;)

With respect to the ongoing political turmoil in the US, What we are seeing is a flare up of tensions which is cyclical and natural.  The same tension driving the BLM/Antifa movement also drives the on going conflict in the Islamic crescent. 

Pitirim Sorokin, who was a prominent sociologist and Harvard academic, described this in his theories on social and cultural dynamics.

Quote
Based on a careful study of world history – including detailed statistical analysis of phases in art, architecture, literature, economics, philosophy, science, and warfare – he identified three strikingly consistent phenomena:

There are two opposed elementary cultural patterns, the materialistic (Sensate) and spiritual (Ideational), along with certain intermediate or mixed patterns.  One mixed pattern, called Idealistic, which integrates the Sensate and Ideational orientations, is extremely important.

Every society tends to alternate between materialistic and spiritual periods, sometimes with transitional, mixed periods, in a regular and predictable way.

Times of transition from one orientation to another are characterized by a markedly increased prevalence of wars and other crises.

Sensate (Materialistic) Culture

The first pattern, which Sorokin called Sensate culture, has these features:

The defining cultural principle is that true reality is sensory – only the material world is real. There is no other reality or source of values.
This becomes the organizing principle of society. It permeates every aspect of culture and defines the basic mentality. People are unable to think in any other terms.
Sensate culture pursues science and technology, but dedicates little creative thought to spirituality or religion.
Dominant values are wealth, health, bodily comfort, sensual pleasures, power and fame.
Ethics, politics, and economics are utilitarian and hedonistic. All ethical and legal precepts are considered mere man-made conventions, relative and changeable.
Art and entertainment emphasize sensory stimulation. In the decadent stages of Sensate culture there is a frenzied emphasis on the new and the shocking (literally, sensationalism).
Religious institutions are mere relics of previous epochs, stripped of their original substance, and tending to fundamentalism and exaggerated fideism (the view that faith is not compatible with reason).

Ideational (Spiritual) Culture

The second pattern, which Sorokin called Ideational culture, has these characteristics:

The defining principle is that true reality is supersensory, transcendent, spiritual.
The material world is variously: an illusion (maya), temporary, passing away (“stranger in a strange land”), sinful, or a mere shadow of an eternal transcendent reality.
Religion often tends to asceticism and moralism.
Mysticism and revelation are considered valid sources of truth and morality.
Science and technology are comparatively de-emphasized.
Economics is conditioned by religious and moral commandments (e.g., laws against usury).
Innovation in theology, metaphysics, and supersensory philosophies.
Flourishing of religious and spiritual art (e.g., Gothic cathedrals).

Integral (Idealistic) Culture

Most cultures correspond to one of the two basic patterns above. Sometimes, however, a mixed cultural pattern occurs. The most important mixed culture Sorokin termed an Integral culture (also sometimes called an idealistic culture – not to be confused with an Ideational culture.) An Integral culture harmoniously balances sensate and ideational tendencies.

Characteristics of an Integral culture include the following:

Its ultimate principle is that the true reality is richly manifold, a tapestry in which sensory, rational, and supersensory threads are interwoven.
All compartments of society and the person express this principle.
Science, philosophy, and theology blossom together.
Fine arts treat both supersensory reality and the noblest aspects of sensory reality.



Reading Sorokin's definitions of the different cultures, it's fairly clear that the West (including the United States) is a Sensate culture, this isn't to say that there aren't forces of ideation in these cultures but they've been overtaken by the the former.  Sorokin theorizes that this will always go on for a period of time until a culture reaches the point of decadence:

Quote
Sorokin was especially interested in the process by which societies change cultural orientations. He opposed the view, held by communists, that social change must be imposed externally, such as by a revolution. His Sorokin was especially interested in the process by which societies change cultural orientations. He opposed the view, held by communists, that social change must be imposed externally, such as by a revolution. His principle of immanent change states that external forces are not necessary: societies change because it is in their nature to change. Although sensate or ideational tendencies may dominate at any given time, every culture contains both mentalities in a tension of opposites. When one mentality becomes stretched too far, it sets in motion compensatory transformative forces.

Helping drive transformation is the fact that human beings are themselves partly sensate, partly rational, and partly intuitive. Whenever a culture becomes too exaggerated in one of these directions, forces within the human psyche will, individually and collectively – work correctively.

Crises of Transition

As a Sensate or Ideational culture reaches a certain point of decline, social and economic crises mark the beginning of transition to a new mentality. These crises occur partly because, as the dominant paradigm reaches its late decadent stages, its institutions try unsuccessfully to adapt, taking ever more drastic measures. However, responses to crises tend to make things worse, leading to new crises. Expansion of government control is an inevitable by-product

I tend to agree with Sorokin and think we are seeing similar trends in both the Islamic world and the Western world.  The issues are different but the end states are much the same.  The Islamic world is further along in their move towards integral culture, hence the scale of violence and warfare in their part of world.

I'll finish with two pictures:





The first is a picture from the pride parade in Boston, the second is a picture of Muslim women clad in Burkha's. 

My opinion, both represent an extreme form of decadence; however, they exist on opposite ends of the spectrum.  The first is an extreme example of a sensate culture, the second is an extreme form of the ideation culture.  Different but at the same time similar as both represent cultural decadence in my mind. 

There will need to be a convergence of values between our respective cultures sometime as extremes cannot coexist with each other.

Source for Pitirim Sorokin:  https://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/pitirim-sorkin-crisis-of-modernity/

Offline Strike

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2017, 09:42:40 »

2 wrongs never make a right. If you want people to take your cause seriously, don't burn things, loot, causes riots or assassinate cops for a perceived racial inequality. Peaceful protests worked for women's suffrage and the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

All three of the groups you mentioned are asshats and don't belong in a modern, inclusive society.

So, those peaceful protests weren't really all that successful now, were they.  Or else the US wouldn't still be arguing about those exact same issues today.

And you're right.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  But have you ever had to try and deal with disciplining several kids for different reasons all at once?  It doesn't work.  So you start with the worst offender and then work your way down.  That way when bad kid number 1 complains that the other kids also misbehaved you can point out that what they did was the worst of the bunch.
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2017, 10:14:20 »
Anyone who can say that there are two sides when we're talking about an actual nazi rally, complete with white nationalist terrorism, goes far beyond confirmation bias.  When David Duke praises your assessment of events, it goes far beyond confirmation bias.  When you say 'what about the alt left?' (sic) when discussing what happened at an event where a your girl was murdered, you're beyond confirmation bias. 

Justin Trudeau deserves nuanced thinking.  Stephen Harper and Barack Obama deserved nuanced thinking.  Donald Trump is now far beyond that, despite his previous (sometimes, depending on the day) repudiations.

Seems like there is a strong possibility that the vehicle incident might not have been per-mediated but as a result of the driver being attacked and panicked. We will have to follow the court case to be sure. Lot's of Canadians also had to fight the Communists as well and that system of government has created death, misery and social upheaval that the Nazis can only dream about. It's funny how people who are ready to grab a pitchfork as soon as a Nazi is spotted, starting mumbling when they see a communist. 

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2017, 10:21:26 »
Both sides of these violent loser groups are the same. Both have a shitty agenda they want to push and will use whatever rethoric is convenient. They're both terrorist style groups and need to be treated as such.

At this point arguing who's more or less violent isnt going to begin to fix anything. 

These are violent groups, many of which are "professional protestors", who are showing up with the intention to be violent and spur others on. What they're not is children and can't be treated like a grade 1 class being rowdy. 



« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:32:13 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2017, 10:30:53 »
Seems like there is a strong possibility that the vehicle incident might not have been per-mediated but as a result of the driver being attacked and panicked. We will have to follow the court case to be sure. Lot's of Canadians also had to fight the Communists as well and that system of government has created death, misery and social upheaval that the Nazis can only dream about. It's funny how people who are ready to grab a pitchfork as soon as a Nazi is spotted, starting mumbling when they see a communist.

I wondered about this when I watched the video. I found it weird that someone intent on killing people would smash into the back of another car to do so when he could have easily mowed down a crowd.


Good luck getting a fair trial though. If that's what happened (accident/panic)  I'd imagine the authorities may very well  be tempted to let buddy hang for it to avoid protesters to use a not guilty verdict as a flame to torch cities.

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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2017, 10:35:08 »
Both sides of these violent loser groups are the same. Both have a shitty agenda they want to push and will use whatever rethoric is convenient. They're both terrorist style groups and need to be treated as such.

At this point arguing who's more or less violent isnt going to begin to fix anything. 

These are violent groups, many of which are "professional protestors", who are showing up with the intention to be violent and spur others to violence. What they're not is children and can't be treated like a grade 1 class being rowdy.
With respect Jarnhamar, violence is not the answer during protests, I agree.  No excuse for the counter protesters to be violent (except in self-defence). The huge issue here is the racists who are white supremacists, neo-nazis, anti-Semites and homophobes who judge, and advocate harm towards others based on their colour, creed and gender. Thanks for your points J.


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Offline Thucydides

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2017, 10:44:05 »
What is making this entire discussion so circular is the violent degradation of language and meaning over the years. People who carry Swastika flags are not "alt" anything, they are National Socialists. Antifa and similar groups who use violence to shut down free speech are not "alt-left", they are acting as thuggish "Red Guards". The idea that Nazis and Communists fight street battles isn't new or ahistorical, it is a reality that was played out in the streets of Germany and Italy (and to a lesser extent in several other European countries) in the early 1930's.

Recognizing this fact is important, since the breakdown of civil society and high trust institutions was a precursor to the rise of mass political movements in the late 19th and early 20th century (mass media being one of the other drivers). I doubt anyone could argue that civil institutions are either breaking down or becoming extinct (look at the declining memberships in service clubs or church denominations, for example), and the rise of "Identity" politics where people are lumped and valued by their skin colour, gender or orientation over their merit and contributions is certainly resulting in a breakdown of high trust society.

The freakout response by the media over President Trump calling out both sides of the Charlottesville fracas is very instructive, he is not conforming to their "narrative" of the events. When he questioned one reporter to "define the alt-right" he directly challenged their ability to characterize people according to identity groups (alt-right, if you remember, first gained major currency when Hillary Clinton used it as a pejorative in the 2016 elections, but it was never defined either them or now). There will be a lot more redefining of terms between now and 2020 (and 2024), but what the establishment Left seems to have lost sight of is their relentless fixation on identity politics and casting white Americans as an evil "out" grouping has essentially created a large new "identity" group, one which is both angry at tis treatment by the establishment political, bureaucratic, academic and media classes, but also one which makes @ 70% of the demographic of America. I'm sure that is going to go well for them in the future......
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2017, 10:49:17 »
Thank you for your assessment Thucydides. I've been mulling these events over, searching for a way of expressing my thoughts. Your post did so far more effectively.

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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2017, 10:57:40 »
Notice when the POTUS asked for questions from the media yesterday there was not one question on the possibility of a nuclear strike by NOKO and retaliation by the US and Allies with the consequences of possible million casualties. To me that says it all.
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2017, 11:00:09 »


The freakout response by the media over President Trump calling out both sides of the Charlottesville fracas is very instructive, he is not conforming to their "narrative" of the events. When he questioned one reporter to "define the alt-right" he directly challenged their ability to characterize people according to identity groups ...

You're giving him too much credit.  That was a stalling tactic as he tried to take control of the situation and have them ask the questions he wanted and avoided answering ones he didn't like.  Nothing more.

But yeah, the rest I agree with.

Now, as to your first para of the post, don't forget who we sided with and which side we fought against. Just like the misbehaving kids analogy in my previous post...(I may be dealing with a kid who is misbehaving a lot.  So bear with me if I'm heavy on those comparisons...is it wine o'clock yet?)
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2017, 11:08:47 »
The freakout response by the media over President Trump calling out both sides of the Charlottesville fracas is very instructive, he is not conforming to their "narrative" of the events. When he questioned one reporter to "define the alt-right" he directly challenged their ability to characterize people according to identity groups (alt-right, if you remember, first gained major currency when Hillary Clinton used it as a pejorative in the 2016 elections, but it was never defined either them or now). There will be a lot more redefining of terms between now and 2020 (and 2024), but what the establishment Left seems to have lost sight of is their relentless fixation on identity politics and casting white Americans as an evil "out" grouping has essentially created a large new "identity" group, one which is both angry at tis treatment by the establishment political, bureaucratic, academic and media classes, but also one which makes @ 70% of the demographic of America. I'm sure that is going to go well for them in the future......

Wait... I'm confused. How does one radical Muslim terrorist not represent all of Islam, but one anti-Semitic redneck represent all Caucasians?
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2017, 11:10:20 »
Wait... I'm confused. How does one radical Muslim terrorist not represent all of Islam, but one anti-Semitic redneck represent all Caucasians?

Sneaky little buggers eh?
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Offline Lumber

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2017, 11:35:43 »
As a centrist, I'm honestly torn on so many different levels about this situation.

I hold Nazism and White Supremacy to be abhorrent, so I support the creation of counter-organizations (in principle) like Antifa and BLM.

However, I believe in peaceful assembly, lobbying, and protest, so I denounce the violence and hateful rhetoric that these organizations have been espousing.

I hold freedom of assembly and freedom speech to be paramount in our society (among other rights), so I support the "alt-rights" right to organize, assemble, protests, and speak out, and I hate neo-social-marxists and their "shouting-down" of right-wing-conservative speakers (i.e. Ann Coulter).

However, I believe Nazism specifically represents a very specific and very deliberate call to violent action against "untermensch", so I support a much more forceful (not necessarily violent, though) attempts by antifa/BLM to subvert, denounce, and destroy neo-nazi and similar organizations.

This is a really good article which admonishes both organizations:

What Trump Gets Wrong About Antifa
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/what-trump-gets-wrong-about-antifa/537048/

Quote
As I argued in my essay, some of their [Antifa's] tactics are genuinely troubling. They’re troubling tactically because conservatives use antifa’s violence to justify—or at least distract from—the violence of white supremacists, as Trump did in his press conference. They’re troubling strategically because they allow white supremacists to depict themselves as victims being denied the right to freely assemble. And they’re troubling morally because antifa activists really do infringe upon that right. By using violence, they reject the moral legacy of the civil-rights movement’s fight against white supremacy. And by seeking to deny racists the ability to assemble, they reject the moral legacy of the ACLU, which in 1977 went to the Supreme Court to defend the right of neo-Nazis to march through Skokie, Illinois.

Antifa activists are sincere. They genuinely believe that their actions protect vulnerable people from harm. Cornel West claims they did so in Charlottesville. But for all of antifa’s supposed anti-authoritarianism, there’s something fundamentally authoritarian about its claim that its activists—who no one elected—can decide whose views are too odious to be publicly expressed. That kind of undemocratic, illegitimate power corrupts. It leads to what happened this April in Portland, Oregon, where antifa activists threatened to disrupt the city’s Rose Festival parade if people wearing “red maga hats” marched alongside the local Republican Party. Because of antifa, Republican officials in Portland claim they can’t even conduct voter registration in the city without being physically threatened or harassed.

So, yes, antifa is not a figment of the conservative imagination. It’s a moral problem that liberals need to confront.
[/size]

However:

Quote
But saying it’s a problem is vastly different than implying, as Trump did, that it’s a problem equal to white supremacism. Using the phrase “alt-left” suggests a moral equivalence that simply doesn’t exist. For starters, while antifa perpetrates violence, it doesn’t perpetrate it on anything like the scale that white nationalists do. It’s no coincidence that it was a Nazi sympathizer—and not an antifa activist—who committed murder in Charlottesville. According to the Anti-Defamation League, right-wing extremists committed 74 percent of the 372 politically motivated murders recorded in the United States between 2007 and 2016. Left-wing extremists committed less than 2 percent.

Second, antifa activists don’t wield anything like the alt-right’s power. White, Christian supremacy has been government policy in the United States for much of American history. Anarchism has not. [...] Even if antifa’s vision of society were as noxious as the “alt-right’s,” it has vastly less power to make that vision a reality.

And antifa’s vision is not as noxious. Antifa activists do not celebrate regimes that committed genocide and enforced slavery. They’re mostly anarchists. Anarchism may not be a particularly practical ideology. But it’s not an ideology that depicts the members of a particular race or religion as subhuman.
[/size]

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2017, 11:36:17 »
You're giving him too much credit.  That was a stalling tactic as he tried to take control of the situation and have them ask the questions he wanted and avoided answering ones he didn't like.  Nothing more.

But yeah, the rest I agree with.

Now, as to your first para of the post, don't forget who we sided with and which side we fought against. Just like the misbehaving kids analogy in my previous post...(I may be dealing with a kid who is misbehaving a lot.  So bear with me if I'm heavy on those comparisons...is it wine o'clock yet?)

and don't forget that the USSR helped the Nazi's rebuild their army, carve up Poland and failed to act against Japan. Abused our trust and imposed a horrific system unto to all they captured. The Soviets were always a marriage of convenience for the west, they asserted themselves as our foe very quickly afterwards.

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2017, 11:40:22 »
Wait... I'm confused. How does one radical Muslim terrorist not represent all of Islam, but one anti-Semitic redneck represent all Caucasians?

Really?  Because it happened at a white supremacist rally maybe?  A rally that EVERYONE knew was going to escalate into violence in some way shape or form by the way.
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2017, 11:41:02 »
... It's funny how people who are ready to grab a pitchfork as soon as a Nazi is spotted, starting mumbling when they see a communist.
Not to excuse the Nazis, but yup ...
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2017, 11:51:02 »



As a centrist, I share with you this plea: Shut-Up; all of you, please.



The political spectum is much more like a horseshoe where the extreme left and the extreme right are closer to each other than they are to the center.
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2017, 11:53:34 »


Really?  Because it happened at a white supremacist rally maybe?  A rally that EVERYONE knew was going to escalate into violence in some way shape or form by the way.

So you're saying that because they're Nazis so are the rest of us? How does that work?
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2017, 12:02:06 »
To answer Strikes point about "Alt-Right", by some media characterizations I would be defined as "Alt-Right" (despite being a very small "l" libertarian). Alt-Right was used as a pejorative by Hillary Clinton, and adopted by the media. Unlike several other pejoratives which rapidly boomeranged against them (the origin of "Fake News" was also the media attempting to negate anything said against Hillary), the definition of alt-right has remained quite nebulous. It is pretty easy to see and point out the distortions of the media, hence the ease and rapidity that "Fake News"" boomeranged against the MSM, but alt right isn't so immediately easy to identify or characterize. If anything, the new counter-meme which will catch on is "alt-left", since President Trump has linked it rhetorically with the media pejorative "alt-right".

ModrMike's point reinforces the power of the media and narrative: one of anything does not characterize the whole, but constant repetition or denial of an idea certainly can make things seem that way. These are simply very old propaganda or PSYOPS ideas being used by the media against their political opponents or to reinforce their "narratives".

As for the horseshoe idea, look up Politics with more Dimensions.
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Re: All things Charlottesville (merged)
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2017, 12:03:29 »

So you're saying that because they're Nazis so are the rest of us? How does that work?

No, I'm saying the people he was hanging out with at the protest were.  And also, I didn't see any reports that labelled every Caucasian as a Nazi because of this one guy.  What I did see was that every Caucasian that was parading in the initial march was labelled as either that or a white supremacist.




As much as I love this graphic, the problem with it is that all of us sitting in the centre are mostly sitting around not doing anything to stop the extremes from growing.

To deal with the left really isn't all that hard.  Many of their demands might seem frivolous to those of us who are right of centre, but if they don't infringe on your own personal rights then it shouldn't be an issue.

Dealing with the extreme right on the other hand is a bit harder because, being the polar opposite of the hard left, they want some people's rights taken away or their own elevated.  Either way, they want to have a bigger piece of the pie.

Sitting in the centre and bitching and moaning about what this side is saying and that side is doing doesn't help anyone.  At which point will the centre stand up and do something? (And yes, I know that those of us in uniform don't really have that option.  Maybe that's why we are all so vocal on here.)
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