Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate  (Read 910442 times)

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Offline MCG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4150 on: March 27, 2018, 00:54:17 »
So by attackingthe network you wish to treat law abiding citizens in a largely peaceful country as you would in a failed state territory just for peace of mind?   
I did not say such hyperbole. But is suppose you found any easy strawman if you just want to lash-out at (shut down) any rational discussion. I was talking about cutting the supply to criminals. Should I assume from your retort that you would oppose anything that would impede the supply of firearms to criminals?



Online Jed

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4151 on: March 27, 2018, 01:22:18 »
I did not say such hyperbole. But is suppose you found any easy strawman if you just want to lash-out at (shut down) any rational discussion. I was talking about cutting the supply to criminals. Should I assume from your retort that you would oppose anything that would impede the supply of firearms to criminals?
No that would be a ridiculous assumption as you well know.

Lash out ???  I just feel strongly about people who from a position of authority talk down to the unwashed masses, especially when it is implied that they some how can not formulate an articulate response to a disagreement.
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Offline MCG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4152 on: March 27, 2018, 01:29:59 »
No that would be a ridiculous assumption as you well know.
Less ridiculous than your previous spin on my comment. But you must know that too. Perhaps you want to skip the ridiculous hyperbole and contribute constructively?

Online Jed

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4153 on: March 27, 2018, 01:52:39 »
Less ridiculous than your previous spin on my comment. But you must know that too. Perhaps you want to skip the ridiculous hyperbole and contribute constructively?
Well I admit I have side swiped you due to the complete frustration and gut ache I feel because of the Government response with Bill C-71.

One of my biggest concerns is the power driving of this disaster of a Bill through the parliamentary system without any proper debate or analysis.

There are several serious issues with this Bill which unfairly affect some of the most law abiding citizens of this country.

One of the most significant is the government abdicating their responsibility to provide overwatch on laws regarding firearms for the RCMP. This sets up a future  ‘Police state’ type move. 

There are other major issues as well that will come out in a few days time. It is my desire to live in a free Canada and not import the BS we see happening in Europe and elsewhere.
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Offline MCG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4154 on: March 27, 2018, 02:24:34 »
Now I think we have found some common ground.

When it comes to letting the police classify fire arms, I don’t understand why the government does not take this in the direction of just about every other technical regulatory system.  A board of experts examines the problem, reports findings, and cabinet decides ... or keep it simple and just leave the cabinet override on the RCMP process.

The alternative could be to very prescriptively & completely describe in legislation the combination of performance and technical characteristics that make a fire arm non-restricted, restricted, or prohibited. There would be no more regulatory lists classifying firearms (or “prescribing” firearms as is the language actually found in the Criminal Code).  But this idea could prove to be too inflexible to please any interested parties.

Also, there should be a way to become a licensed prohibited owner without having been grandfathered.


Online Jed

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4155 on: March 27, 2018, 02:34:39 »
Now I think we have found some common ground.

When it comes to letting the police classify fire arms, I don’t understand why the government does not take this in the direction of just about every other technical regulatory system.  A board of experts examines the problem, reports findings, and cabinet decides ... or keep it simple and just leave the cabinet override on the RCMP process.

The alternative could be to very prescriptively & completely describe in legislation the combination of performance and technical characteristics that make a fire arm non-restricted, restricted, or prohibited. There would be no more regulatory lists classifying firearms (or “prescribing” firearms as is the language actually found in the Criminal Code).  But this idea could prove to be too inflexible to please any interested parties.

Also, there should be a way to become a licensed prohibited owner without having been grandfathered.
I agree with all that.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4156 on: March 27, 2018, 08:18:49 »
...One of the most significant is the government abdicating their responsibility to provide overwatch on laws regarding firearms for the RCMP. This sets up a future  ‘Police state’ type move...

Jed, this is an excellent point you make, and one that similarly concerns many of us.  Without too much of a tin-foil hat, one could then consider the Government’s recent appointment of the RCMP’s new Commissioner, particularly mindful by many familiar with the Force about junior experience compared even to other female candidates, and wonder what influence is still happening between PMO and the Force, yet in a manner that isn’t open to public (Legislative) oversight/awareness?

Regards
G2G

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4157 on: March 27, 2018, 10:14:29 »
Jed, this is an excellent point you make, and one that similarly concerns many of us.  Without too much of a tin-foil hat, one could then consider the Government’s recent appointment of the RCMP’s new Commissioner, particularly mindful by many familiar with the Force about junior experience compared even to other female candidates, and wonder what influence is still happening between PMO and the Force, yet in a manner that isn’t open to public (Legislative) oversight/awareness?

Regards
G2G

The RCMP having complete and final control of firearms classification, without any appeal or oversight mechanism is my largest complaint with C71. The decisions they make can and will have Criminal Code implications for gun owners. They will then turn around and enforce their own decisions. In no other area of law in Canada is a police force allowed such power and that should concern all Canadians.

If it was up to me, I would set up a separate, standalone agency or laboratory staffed with experts whose sole job was to research and classify firearms according to the criteria laid down by Parliament.

The rest of the bill amounts to petty harassment of both legal gun owners and gun vendors, but will likely do little if anything to impact gang violence, which is the stated purpose of this whole exercise.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 10:17:47 by SeaKingTacco »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4158 on: March 27, 2018, 10:45:14 »
By the Liberals putting the RCMP in a position to make these rules on their own the Liberals can step back and say it's not them making the rules when people are angry.

Money towards  border protection and anti gang stuff is great  but remains to be seen if the money is actually allocated effectively.  The remainder just annoys and harasses people who have no intention of breaking the law.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4159 on: March 27, 2018, 11:04:59 »
I would add one further small step to what SKT proposes: The independent expert agency would do the research and classification of firearms based on the criteria laid down in the law by Parliament, but it would be for the purpose of advising the Government, with the coming into force of any classification for any given firearm still requiring adoption through regulation - duly published, publicized and entering into force according to the law applicable to adoption of regulations.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4160 on: March 27, 2018, 12:21:55 »
I would add one further small step to what SKT proposes: The independent expert agency would do the research and classification of firearms based on the criteria laid down in the law by Parliament, but it would be for the purpose of advising the Government, with the coming into force of any classification for any given firearm still requiring adoption through regulation - duly published, publicized and entering into force according to the law applicable to adoption of regulations.

Absolutely. There is an annoyingly dangerous trend of elected governments outsourcing lawmaking to bureaucrats- either because they want the political cover or find it too bothersome to make the in the first place. This is not confined to areas of gun law in Canada.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4161 on: March 27, 2018, 18:17:07 »
Our firearm classification system serves no other purpose than to give the illusion of levels of safety to anti-firearm voters.

The RCMP will soon be playing games picking which non-restricted rifles you can use on crown land and your property and force you to use them only on a CFO approved range. (If you can afford the often expensive membership cost and if there isn't a long waiting list).

IF you own a gun and hypothetically decide tomorrow you want to go shoot up your work or school is the fact you are only legally allowed to use a restricted gun on a range going to stop you?  Are you going to call the CFO for an authorization to transport your gun to a school address?

It doesn't save lives. It doesn't prevent shootings. There's no evidence in statistics of magazine restrictions mitigating the number of wounded or killed.

The last mass shooting in Canada the killer used a rifle that's either restricted or non-restricted, and a restricted pistol.
Second last mass shooter used a crossbow.
Third last a non-restricted shotgun- I've read pump action and also break-open (so single shot)
Fourth Last restricted handgun (stolen)
Fifth a non-restricted rifle; and
Sixth a knife.

The majority of gang-related shootings are with restricted pistols.

When a .22LR caliber gun is restricted because of looks (AR15, AK47) and looks alone you know the system isn't logical.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4162 on: March 27, 2018, 19:42:28 »
The RCMP having complete and final control of firearms classification, without any appeal or oversight mechanism is my largest complaint with C71. . . .

Not being argumentative here but honestly looking for information as I too think such a provision would be problematic.

I've read C71 and don't see that provision, just one that restricts GiC from downgrading a classification. What specific provision(s) of C71 or existing legislation are you relying on when you say that the "RCMP having complete and final control . . . without any appeal"?

 :cheers:
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Offline Furniture

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4163 on: March 27, 2018, 22:17:13 »
I've read C71 and don't see that provision, just one that restricts GiC from downgrading a classification.  :cheers:

Not to derail from your question, but this in and of itself is troublesome. It's a direct shot at the people that supported the conservatives last time around. It's playing games of politics with hundreds of thousands of dollars of Canadian citizens private property. It serves no public safety purpose, but appeals to the anti-gun voters so they appear to be getting tough on crime.

To go to the opposite extreme this is like the conservatives making all beard combs and skinny jeans illegal, and those in possession liable for criminal charges. It's a cheap shot at the personal property of people that most likely voted the other way, and has no place in Canadian politics.   

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4164 on: March 27, 2018, 23:50:22 »
Not being argumentative here but honestly looking for information as I too think such a provision would be problematic.

I've read C71 and don't see that provision, just one that restricts GiC from downgrading a classification. What specific provision(s) of C71 or existing legislation are you relying on when you say that the "RCMP having complete and final control . . . without any appeal"?

 :cheers:

So, the summary of the Bill affirms that the Governor in Counsel (GIC) will no longer have the authority to down classify firearms. In other words, once the RCMP makes something Restricted or Prohibitted for whatever reason, it cannot be backed down, by anyone, ever. It is a one way trip.

The Press release on this bill at the Canadian Firearms Centre affirms that this Government intends to allow the RCMP the final say in all firearms classifications. One could view this as a positive, I suppose- in theory, this ends political interference in the classification process.  I do not for the reasons I have already I do not like putting the RCMP in the position of judging firearms, then enforcing their own judgements. In my mind, it should be a separate agency doing the classification work, with another independent body as an appeal authority, should gun owners disagree with a classification decision.

Offline FJAG

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4165 on: March 28, 2018, 00:31:49 »
I've got that. I also know that the basic definition of the classes of firearms comes from s 84 of the CCC and that  SOR/98-462 deems certain firearms to be prohibited/restricted but so far I have not found where the RCMP has a non appealable power to classify firearms.

I am aware from a past case that I was involved in that the RCMP can make judgements on certain firearms but that was always something you could take to court as part of a confiscation hearing. If that right has gone can you point me to the specific sections that do that.

Again. I'm not arguing with you I just don't know and want to see the law for myself for interest sake.

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 19:58:39 by FJAG »
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4166 on: March 28, 2018, 00:48:04 »
Fox in the hen house.

It's such a glaring anomaly in Canadas political history, that no one should be missuing this..

It's a Catch 22. The RCMP has been given the law making ability of the GiC, comprised of our legislators.  The government has removed the power and ability of Canadians and thier duly elected representatives to reverse the RCMP decision.

The current government has abrogated it's duty and responsibility to Canadians an handed lawful tax paying citizens to a police state

If I'm wrong, convince me.

We're on a cusp, methinks.  Indulge my fantasy. This is going to pass. I believe you're going to see the Trudeau government table a bill to limit debate. This will get voted in by the majority party against all wishes of every other Canadian taxpayer represtative. It will race through the senate, pass all subsequent reading and it's law.

Here comes the gun bill. A day or two of typical non answers, debate is finished the grits win. Big shock.

Think about it, he's been getting us ready by not providing a single relevant answer since being in power. He'll come into the house once a week as the table and vote in whatever they want. We have no checks and balances. They've been stolen, like our rights, from beneath our noses. Debate and votes are a simply formality for the masses that listen to CBC. Theater dress up.

He did say, that this was the last election under our current system. Might just be our last election period.

Looks like the left elected a mad king for us.

Fantasy. I'm just thinking of a story line for a book.  8)

Sorry and it'll seem unfair, but please don't go down a political rabbit hole here. I had to use those hypothetical situations to make my point. If you think it's good for discussion take it to Canadian Politics. Quote my whole post over there so you've got a touchstone for the base of it. Tanks!
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4167 on: March 28, 2018, 01:16:00 »
I've got that. I also know that the basic definition of the classes of firearms comes from s 84 of the CCC and that there are SOR/98-462 deems certain firearms to be prohibited/restricted but so far I have not found where the RCMP has a non appealable power to classify firearms.

I am aware from a past case that I was involved in that the RCMP can make judgements on certain firearms but that was always something you could take to court as part of a confiscation hearing. If that right has gone can you point me to the specific sections that do that.

Again. I'm not arguing with you I just don't know and want to see the law for myself for interest sake.

 :cheers:

I am not arguing that you can just go before a judge, after you have been charged, to argue a classification issue.

But why should it have to come to a charge being layed? Tell me, in the proposed system, who you appeal a classification decision taken by the RCMP, too? The GiC will be out of play on this. Does that not place the RCMP in the position as the final authority on firearms matters in Canada? Not trolling- asking a question. You have far more experience than me in judicial matters.

The

Offline Colin P

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4168 on: March 28, 2018, 13:11:40 »
Not being argumentative here but honestly looking for information as I too think such a provision would be problematic.

I've read C71 and don't see that provision, just one that restricts GiC from downgrading a classification. What specific provision(s) of C71 or existing legislation are you relying on when you say that the "RCMP having complete and final control . . . without any appeal"?

 :cheers:

The bill is explicit from what I have seen, guns can be determined by the RCMP or politicians (by OIC) as restricted or prohibited and the ability to reverse a decision by the RCMP by OIC would be prohibited. So the regulations will only allow for the increase in restrictions and no form of appeal for the affected citizen.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4169 on: March 28, 2018, 18:22:39 »
The bill is explicit from what I have seen, guns can be determined by the RCMP or politicians (by OIC) as restricted or prohibited and the ability to reverse a decision by the RCMP by OIC would be prohibited. So the regulations will only allow for the increase in restrictions and no form of appeal for the affected citizen.

Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that any law/regulation that removes your right to appeal is, in effect, unconstitutional.
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Offline ballz

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4170 on: March 28, 2018, 20:35:36 »
Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that any law/regulation that removes your right to appeal is, in effect, unconstitutional.

I don't think he meant an actual legal appeal.... as stated earlier, yes, you can still get charged and have your day in court. But that's insane... who would ever agree to creating legislation that can only be changed by a citizen who 1. gets charged and 2. has the resources to actually fight the government all the way up to the SCC... how many people will literally go to jail as a criminal before that happens?

We have three branches of government for a reason. What is the point of the legislative branch if it's just going to hand over its power to the executive branch? Would we ever let police decide the definition of murder, of assault, of sexual assault? Would we ever let police write the Criminal Code? What is so special about firearms that we throw out all principles of good governance?

I happen to think it's not constitutional but as a citizen I have no way to challenge that except getting charged and running the legal gauntlet. It kind of blows my mind... I feel like the judicial branch, if faced with this issue in court, would have to rule that the legislation can't just handover it's power to the executive... if not, we have a very big oversight in our constitution that essentially allows us to slip into a dictatorship.

EDIT: In Switzerland, the closest thing we have to a direct democracy, after a few failed attempts at a constitution which required an armed revolution to rectify, they now have it so that *any* law can be challenged by getting 100,000 signatures on a petition. If you can do that, then their legislative branch has to draft an updated version/draft of the law. The citizens then have a referendum... keep the old law, adopt the new proposed law, or repeal the old law altogether.

In Canada, we are moving in the opposite direction.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 20:40:04 by ballz »
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Offline kkwd

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4171 on: April 06, 2018, 06:42:56 »
I can't figure out what "13 firearms without functionality classification" category.

Quote
As of October 2017, according the division’s inventory system, there were 476 firearms in the inventory. That number included 158 functional firearms, 294 non-functional firearms (used for educational courses throughout the province), 13 firearms without functionality classification and 11 firearms listed as being lost.

http://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/firearms-missing-from-nl-wildlife-division-ag-reports-199425/
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4172 on: April 06, 2018, 07:03:45 »
Unserviceable and/or awaiting repair?  Just spitballing here.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4173 on: April 06, 2018, 11:09:00 »

I happen to think it's not constitutional but as a citizen I have no way to challenge that except getting charged and running the legal gauntlet. It kind of blows my mind... I feel like the judicial branch, if faced with this issue in court, would have to rule that the legislation can't just handover it's power to the executive... if not, we have a very big oversight in our constitution that essentially allows us to slip into a dictatorship.

EDIT: In Switzerland, the closest thing we have to a direct democracy, after a few failed attempts at a constitution which required an armed revolution to rectify, they now have it so that *any* law can be challenged by getting 100,000 signatures on a petition. If you can do that, then their legislative branch has to draft an updated version/draft of the law. The citizens then have a referendum... keep the old law, adopt the new proposed law, or repeal the old law altogether.

In Canada, we are moving in the opposite direction.

Careful with statements like that here. The last time I mentioned that, some people here said I needed my head examined. ;)
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate
« Reply #4174 on: April 20, 2018, 17:42:54 »
Quote
Campaign #9 - Conflict of Interest and Ethics Violations

In accepting the position of Vice Chair of the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee, Ms Provost signed terms of reference agreeing not to lobby government in areas related to firearms. Ten months later, in her capacity as a spokesperson for PolySeSouvient, she sent a detailed letter to Members of Parliament and Public Safety Canada asking for specific gun control measures to be legislated. Four months after that the Minister of Public Safety introduced bill C-71 in the House of Commons, a bill that contains five of PolySeSouvient's requests and uses passages from the letter as justification. Campaign 9 is addressed to the Ethics Commissioner and the Lobbying Commissioner as well members of the media. It aims to expose this conflict of interest and ethical violations.


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