Author Topic: Jeans & mass punishment? #2  (Read 26721 times)

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Offline mariomike

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 18:42:37 by mariomike »

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2018, 18:45:03 »
So it does certainly appear that there are regulations in place if the CoC wanted to lay a charge but it rarely if ever seems to happen.  In fact, the person or group whinners often get what they were looking for.


Offline mariomike

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2018, 18:47:18 »
So it does certainly appear that there are regulations in place if the CoC wanted to lay a charge but it rarely if ever seems to happen. 

Seems the source was only identified as, "A senior cadet at the college told the Whig-Standard that their disappointment with their chain of command's decision goes beyond being unhappy that they can't wear some Levi's."

Some of the cadets seem to be lawyered up, "A former infantry officer of 28 years and later a legal officer, Fowler currently represents multiple cadets at the college who have reached out to him about the loss of privileges."

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2018, 18:57:00 »
 :rofl:
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Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2018, 18:57:12 »
I'm the kind of person that normally just goes into work and does my job without much complaining so these aren't the normal things that pop into my head but if there are regulations in place, whether I or anyone else agrees with them, what could a lawyer even do?  Why waste money hiring a lawyer?  It's not like the CoC is violating their rights or are they?  Getting a lawyer just doesn't make sense to me.

Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2018, 22:13:48 »
So RMC expects the OCdts to, as future officers, report wrongdoing by peers etc.  Some OCdts bring forward an issue to the CoC and the CoC in turn hammers everyone.

Probably makes those OCdts less likely to report wrongdoing in the future.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 22:16:58 by ExRCDcpl »

Offline Strike

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2018, 22:28:23 »
So RMC expects the OCdts to, as future officers, report wrongdoing by peers etc.  Some OCdts bring forward an issue to the CoC and the CoC in turn hammers everyone.

Probably makes those OCdts less likely to report wrongdoing in the future.

Actually, it was the DCdts himself that caught cadets leaving the grounds wearing jeans being the last straw, after several warnings and reports of cadets being in town in such since the new dress regs came down in September.

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Offline Mike63

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #107 on: March 06, 2018, 01:20:28 »
Note to self:If I ever have to go to RMC / CDA for work, be certain to wear clean jeans with a shirt, tie and blazer.


I spent 7 years working at CDA, and I can tell you I wore jeans to work every day.  The only times I didn't was when we had to go to RMC Currie Hall for either lectures, presentations or our yearly orientation days.  Basically the only reason why I chose to wear jeans and a t-shirt each day is because a certain LCol once told one civilian guy 'jeans aren't allowed to be worn by civilian employees, don't do that again', I kid you not, that is exactly what he said!  From that day forward, I wore jeans and t-shirts with little sayings on them, mostly sarcastic that I got from a website called Road Kill T-Shirts.

I did that for a couple of reasons, one; he can't tell us civilians what to wear or not, there is nothing in our collective agreement about any dress code.  Secondly, I wore them to spite him not wanting us to wear them AND, for about two weeks, I made it a point to walk around his office door hoping that he would see me and say something (eh, bit of a **** disturber and fighting the establishment, but for 27 years of svc, I did what they asked, I went where they sent me, all without questioning any order).  Also, even though I was in a "Higher HQ" as they like to call themselves, I was always behind a desk providing customer service to CAF mbrs only via email or on the phone.  No one ever came to my office looking for help (well those that worked in the bldg did), so nobody ever seen what I was wearing. 

I'm fully retired now and don't have to concern myself about that kind of stuff anymore.  I have always worn jeans, I only have maybe 3 pairs of dress pants and two suits, don't like them!
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #108 on: March 06, 2018, 05:21:12 »
The age of heightened sense of entitlement.... what a wonderful time we're living in.

Guess what kids, it's 4 years, and then you have a decade of guaranteed employment and you CAN wear whatever you damn well please off duty.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 11:16:10 by LunchMeat »
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Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #109 on: March 06, 2018, 07:18:39 »
As far as NDA 129, that's the coverall charge that many people think shouldn't exist because it's often used when they can't get a real charge to stick.

Actually, it is a "real charge".

Like lots of people on here, I've used it a few times. 129 reflects the fact that it's the responsibility of the chain of command to maintain the "good order and discipline" of the organizations they lead. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of seemingly small things in unit life which, in a civilian environment, might be considered meaningless, petty, or "harrassment" (a grossly overused term IMHO). But, in military life, these things detract from the "good order and discipline" of a unit and must be dealt with swiftly and strictly. Just because "many" people think 129 is a "coverall" doesn't in any way lessen its legality, legitimacy, or usefulness in running a good unit.

I'm not a lawyer, but again IMHO the laying of  129 as an alternate charge is no less legitimate than the Crown in a civilian case laying an alternate or lesser charge, such as manslaughter as a lesser charge to murder.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #110 on: March 06, 2018, 09:30:03 »
While the wearing of jeans is the current issue, perhaps it should be seen as a symptom of a larger problem – College leadership failure. 

In 2016, the CDS ordered a SSAV because of "a spotlight on issues of harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour, potential suicides, mental health, fitness, alcohol and drug abuse."  The report was published last March, with Gen. Vance accepting every one of the report's recommendations.

Of note here, the report stated that “Dress Standards at RMC are a major bone of contention… particularly 'walking-out dress' and the use of dress as a punishment.”  The CDS noted, “What part of wearing a ceremonial uniform downtown on a Friday night to have a drink with your friends would directly relate to your ability to be a good warrior leader or a good infantry officer?  ...It’s a rhetorical question, because there is none.”

Yet, this ongoing fashion crisis shows that RMC leadership is essentially telling the CDS to go **** himself.

This isn’t really surprising though.  Cadets all take courses on leadership, and every year Cadets ask why the evidence-based principles of good leadership they are taught aren’t practiced by RMC's military staff. 

Maybe MilCol’s “leaders” need to dust off Leadership in the Canadian Forces: Conceptual Foundations (Hint: Ch 5 and 6)



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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2018, 09:39:35 »
Statements that were given by Cadets in this incident are incorrect.  They are incorrect because they provided no context.  This is because they came from Cadets who A) have their own agenda to push B) don't know what goes on outside their own bubble.

I'll give you some examples:

1.  "Cadets were ordered to go on parade improperly dressed"  They were ordered to go to a parade but the parade was ordered by the Cadet Wing themselves (As I said earlier) so Cadets ordering Cadets, the staff did not order the Cadets to parade in the cold improperly dressed.

2.  "Cadets have been removed from Academics to focus on French Training"  This is correct but doesn't give any context.  RMC has four pillars:  Academics, Military, Physical Fitness and Bilingualism.  Graduation requires passing all four pillars and not just the ones someone feels like passing.  We had numerous Cadets that have been failing Physical Fitness and Bilingualism Pillars and have made no effort to improve themselves in either Pillar.  A couple of Cadets in particular have never passed a fitness test in four years at RMC and a couple of fourth years had XXX profiles (even after 4 years and over 400hrs of instruction).  The decision was made to remove them from Academics temporarily and give them an intensive six month period of additional instruction with their only job to be meeting the requirements of one of the Pillars they are deficient in.

The Chain of Command was not required to do this, in fact, the Commandant has the power to simply release them for failing the training; however, it was decided to give these Cadets a one time deal as a way of transitioning to the new Regime which is reaffirmation that success is required in all four pillars to be successful at RMC.  Normally any additional time in the program (i.e. more than four years of education subsidization) requires the Cadet to pay for this themselves.  We waived this requirement for these Cadets and they will be receiving additional instruction, free of charge and still be allowed to complete their degree afterwards without any financial penalty.

We've hired additional fitness instructors, we are bringing in Nutritionists to monitor the diet of these Cadets, we have brought in additional Second Language Instructors.  We are doing our due diligence to ensure these Cadets are given every opportunity to succeed.  The message is clear though, the expectation is that every Cadet will be successful in All Four Pillars as a condition of graduation.

While the wearing of jeans is the current issue, perhaps it should be seen as a symptom of a larger problem – College leadership failure. 

In 2016, the CDS ordered a SSAV because of "a spotlight on issues of harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour, potential suicides, mental health, fitness, alcohol and drug abuse."  The report was published last March, with Gen. Vance accepting every one of the report's recommendations.

Of note here, the report stated that “Dress Standards at RMC are a major bone of contention… particularly 'walking-out dress' and the use of dress as a punishment.”  The CDS noted, “What part of wearing a ceremonial uniform downtown on a Friday night to have a drink with your friends would directly relate to your ability to be a good warrior leader or a good infantry officer?  ...It’s a rhetorical question, because there is none.”

Yet, this ongoing fashion crisis shows that RMC leadership is essentially telling the CDS to go **** himself.

This isn’t really surprising though.  Cadets all take courses on leadership, and every year Cadets ask why the evidence-based principles of good leadership they are taught aren’t practiced by RMC's military staff. 

Maybe MilCol’s “leaders” need to dust off Leadership in the Canadian Forces: Conceptual Foundations (Hint: Ch 5 and 6)



With thanks to Professor Al English


I agree this was a problem in the past, I won't comment too much on this but it is changing.  Part of the problem is there was a "make it up as we go" attitude amongst the Training Wing Staff.  Policy is being written as we speak including Terms of Reference for all the Staff.

The new Squadron Commanders Terms of Reference/Position Requirements are interesting and include:

FORCE Test Standard Requirement:  Gold
Must go through a interview process like they do for CFLRS instructors
Merited in the top 25% of their respective Branch/Corps

Positions have been up-ranked as well, every Squadron now has a Warrant Officer and I can personally say the Warrant Officers/Petty Officer 1st Class we have are high quality. 

The CDS is well aware of everything that is going on at the College and that's all I will say on that.


« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 11:19:33 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline QV

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #112 on: March 06, 2018, 10:07:41 »
Read my original post:

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,127537.msg1523697.html#msg1523697

We've hired additional fitness instructors, we are bringing in Nutritionists to monitor the diet of these Cadets, we have brought in additional Second Language Instructors.  We are doing our due diligence to ensure these Cadets are given every opportunity to succeed.  The message is clear though, the expectation is that every Cadet will be successful in All Four Pillars as a condition of graduation....


This goes back to one of my other posts in another thread about the BFT and dragging people across the finish line.  So at RMC there are these cadets that need all of this extra training and hand holding to meet the minimum standards ... are these the kind of people you want in leadership positions?  What ever happened to some self discipline?  Future leaders in the making. 



Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #113 on: March 06, 2018, 10:22:03 »
This goes back to one of my other posts in another thread about the BFT and dragging people across the finish line.  So at RMC there are these cadets that need all of this extra training and hand holding to meet the minimum standards ... are these the kind of people you want in leadership positions?  What ever happened to some self discipline?  Future leaders in the making.

Agreed and as I mentioned this is a one time deal.  Next year Cadets who fail to meet the minimum standard will be removed and they are aware this is happening.  Consider this the transition year.

Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2018, 10:35:49 »
Quote
...A couple of Cadets in particular have never passed a fitness test in four years at RMC...

Wow. Really?  WTF was going on there?
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2018, 10:42:49 »
Wow. Really?  WTF was going on there?

Good question, part of the problem is it's never been a big issue before.  There has always been maybe 5% of fourth years that had trouble in one of the Pillars, usually in Second Language and maybe a couple with fitness.  Starting in 2011 though, the number of Cadets unable to meet the standards steadily climbed from 5-10% to a high of 35% in 2015.  Which the SSAV identified as a major issue.

I remember being a Cadet and having maybe 20 people on supplementary fitness training when I was here, I was shocked to see 30% of the student body on SPT when I got here.  Something like 50-60% of first year Cadets are unable to meet the minimum standard of physical fitness at RMC.

We can no longer recruit people that meet the standard so something needed to change.  This could partially explain the morale problems at the school so we've had to make drastic changes.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 11:33:29 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Pusser

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2018, 11:38:30 »
Again I don't think it's right to go to the media and wouldn't personally do it, but I have known people who have.   They never seem to get charged or punished in anyway.  Maybe the senior leadership doesn't want that type of fight?

As far as NDA 129, that's the coverall charge that many people think shouldn't exist because it's often used when they can't get a real charge to stick.

You don't think that "conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline" should be a real charge?  Causing disruption or lacking discipline should be OK?  Really?
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2018, 11:40:04 »
For reference, here's a link to the standards: RMC Physical Performance Test

I find it truly remarkable that 30% of candidates can't meet these standards.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2018, 11:58:29 »
Holy smokes RMC sounds like a train wreck. Or was a train wreck and its slowly getting cleaned up but it seems like some cadets prefer the carnage. How or why on earth did they pass the interview process?

No pt test in 4 years?

I know of two Mcpls who were separately almost charged for letting their FORCE test lapse (as in they were a month late doing it)  and its not because they're out of shape but because they were so busy.

I hope these new changes work but if they don't I can see us just giving these kids their free degree and dropping all this "silly military crap" to become  military officers.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2018, 12:02:35 »
Of note here, the report stated that “Dress Standards at RMC are a major bone of contention… particularly 'walking-out dress' and the use of dress as a punishment.”  The CDS noted, “What part of wearing a ceremonial uniform downtown on a Friday night to have a drink with your friends would directly relate to your ability to be a good warrior leader or a good infantry officer?  ...It’s a rhetorical question, because there is none.”

Yet, this ongoing fashion crisis shows that RMC leadership is essentially telling the CDS to go **** himself.

Based on what you've quoted, the CDS is not saying that there should be no dress code or that everybody should be able to wear jeans downtown.  He's simply saying that perhaps a dress uniform is over the top.  There was a time that junior Mil Col cadets had to wear actual dress uniforms downtown on the weekends and they looked really out of place in the King's Hotel in Victoria.  Taken in context, dress trousers and open collar shirts for all cadets is incredibly progressive compared to what it used to be.
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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2018, 12:04:33 »
Based on what you've quoted, the CDS is not saying that there should be no dress code or that everybody should be able to wear jeans downtown.  He's simply saying that perhaps a dress uniform is over the top.  There was a time that junior Mil Col cadets had to wear actual dress uniforms downtown on the weekends and they looked really out of place in the King's Hotel in Victoria.  Taken in context, dress trousers and open collar shirts for all cadets is incredibly progressive compared to what it used to be.

When I was rowing up in Victoria, you could tell what year the RRMC cadets were by what they wore off campus...

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #121 on: March 06, 2018, 12:12:50 »
This is a foolish response but by god does this sort of attitude make me angry:
"We waived this requirement for these Cadets and they will be receiving additional instruction, free of charge and still be allowed to complete their degree afterwards without any financial penalty."
Not only are the cadets not suitable for leadership, neither are the people making that decision.  Here in the private sector, if you want to be generous you pay for it.  So!  Since you're so generous (with other people's money) you pay for it.  GD governments think money just happens.

Offline Strike

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #122 on: March 06, 2018, 12:47:38 »
This is a foolish response but by god does this sort of attitude make me angry:
"We waived this requirement for these Cadets and they will be receiving additional instruction, free of charge and still be allowed to complete their degree afterwards without any financial penalty."
Not only are the cadets not suitable for leadership, neither are the people making that decision.  Here in the private sector, if you want to be generous you pay for it.  So!  Since you're so generous (with other people's money) you pay for it.  GD governments think money just happens.

You have to take into consideration that the college has been in flux for the past several years, trying to find its place again.  The position of DCdts has changed 4 or more times in as many years and with it so have some of the standards wrt the college requirements - pillar system or just education or more military elements, less military elements.  It has resulted in a small number of cadets being lost in this weird flux and these are the ones who are having issues (with French at least).  This is what I've been told by a cadet acquaintance in 3rd year and another in 4th.  If the college were to give them the boot the resulting redress would have likely resulted in them being given their college degree and commissioning.  So the school is doing whatever they can to fix the mess that some of these students are finding themselves in through no fault of their own.
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Offline pbi

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2018, 13:09:10 »
...Starting in 2011 though, the number of Cadets unable to meet the standards steadily climbed from 5-10% to a high of 35% in 2015.  Which the SSAV identified as a major issue...Something like 50-60% of first year Cadets are unable to meet the minimum standard of physical fitness at RMC.

We can no longer recruit people that meet the standard so something needed to change.  This could partially explain the morale problems at the school so we've had to make drastic changes.

This is dismal. Are there no physically fit young people out there, or do fit young people have no interest in joining as officers?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2018, 13:20:30 »
This is dismal. Are there no physically fit young people out there, or do fit young people have no interest in joining as officers?

These days, the recruits tend to have very powerful thumbs .... :)
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