Author Topic: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters  (Read 4824 times)

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2018, 01:36:20 »
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 01:45:46 by Fishbone Jones »
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2018, 01:54:14 »
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2018, 04:02:50 »
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 11:31:57 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2018, 04:04:16 »
To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Thanks for that!
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2018, 10:47:06 »
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

I tend to agree with you...
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2018, 11:19:35 »

     Abu Ghraib)




The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".
Everything happens for a reason.

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2018, 11:39:01 »
The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".

When it comes to counter-insurgency, all Armies seem to need to learn the hard way, sadly, like Internment in NI in the 1970s, which resulted in a huge set of unintended consequences:

'Historians generally view the period of internment as inflaming sectarian tensions in Northern Ireland, while failing in its goal of arresting key members of the IRA. Many of the people arrested had no links whatsoever with the IRA, but their names appeared on the list of those to be arrested through bungling and incompetence. The list's lack of reliability and the arrests that followed, complemented by reports of internees being abused far in excess of the usual state violence, led to more nationalists identifying with the IRA and losing hope in non-violent methods. After Operation Demetrius, recruits came forward in huge numbers to join the Provisional and Official wings of the IRA. Internment also led to a sharp increase in violence. In the eight months before the operation, there were 34 conflict-related deaths in Northern Ireland. In the four months following it, 140 were killed.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2018, 17:21:14 »
My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

Many of us have been in much closer contact with them than watching/reporting. Matter of perspective I guess, not a pissing contest.  :salute:
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2018, 18:12:09 »
The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Yup, this. There is definitely no lack of thirst to investigate or prosecute this at any level, whether within the investigative teams, the police/intelligence services as a whole, the crown prosecutors' offices, or within the government / cabinet / PMO. Frnakly I'm sure our government would love nothing better right now than a couple of slam dunk prosecutions of Daesh returnees, because they quite rightly fear the impact this issue will have on the election.

We are, in the end, a nation ruled by law, however. I as a police officer am constrained in my job by our system of laws and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms - and quite rightly so! It's correct and appropriate than in a free society I, as an agent of the state possessed of considerable coercive powers, should have to justify my actions. If I want to investigate someone - just like any of you - who may be driving drunk, or accused of assault, dealing drugs, or making threats or committing a fraud or what have you - there are things that might make my job potentially easier but that the law doesn't allow me to do because they would trample your rights. I cannot make you confess to a crime, I generally can't force my way into your home and arbitrarily look for evidence, I can't just take your phone off you and have it searched for evidence without a warrant granted by a judge based on my grounds outlining a reasonable suspicion of an offense. I cannot arbitrarily listen in on your phone calls or seize and analyze your computer. We have mechanisms to do all these things but we have the judiciary as an oversight. I cannot burn certain investigative techniques in court proceedings. I cannot disclose the identity of confidential informants whose lives may be at risk from retribution by criminals. And these are all extraordinary simplistic comparisons in the realm of straight criminal investigations. Add international intelligence gathering and sharing arrangements into the picture, and holy hell does it get tough to use information. There is a whole sector within our national security infrastructure that wrestles with taking security intelligence (e.g., from CSIS, CSE, or foreign allied agencies) and handing off clean tidbits to the RCMP to say 'we can't tell you why, but look at this guy' and to try to build prosecutable criminal cases from there.

On the face of it it's easy to say 'Well OK, but drunk driver versus ISIS terrorist Come on, be reasonable". Yup. We can always pick two examples far removed from each other for comparison. Where it gets much harder is trying to discern the truth when someone purportedly travels overseas to a contested area to visit family, or to engage in humanitarian work, or what have you, and then on the flip side is accused of acts of terrorism. Are they giving money to Daesh, or to a legitimate charity? Might they be blissfully unaware of the difference? Where do we draw the line between combatants that are on the 'good guy' side and those that are not in such a conflict?

All that said- I'm by no means coming to the defense of these Daeshbags. I think among the first steps in effective solutions include better joint targeting and intelligence sharing, precision munitions, and where applicable sound application of the principles of marksmanship. We don't need to worry about prosecuting those dead as combatants on the battlefield. But one way or another we have to face the facts that some will return, and that the waters in many cases will be extremely muddied. It's very easy indeed to say all these people should be investigated, charged, convicted, and thrown in jail. I'm absolutely with everyone else on that part of the principle of this thing, for sure. But the rule of law matters, it's what keeps us the good guys and protects all of you from the dumb crap I could otherwise do in the course of efforts to enforce the law, and whether we like it or not those same protections do not end at some arbitrary line in the sand. I wish things were easier than this, but they're not.
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Offline standingdown

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2018, 18:26:08 »
I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

 :salute:









Offline standingdown

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2018, 18:48:07 »
Good post Brihard. You are correct (unfortunately) in so many ways, but it also shows why as a country we are weak and vulnerable.

We did have a choice to do more to kill these guys over there. Now we will suffer.

As for Jihadi Jack...you gotta love the article where it shows a picture of him doing the ISIS salute, and the CBC caption mentions his Dad saying he went there to help refugees:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495

WHAT A JOKE!

I threw my bling from IMPACT into a bin somewhere. I've had to resist doing worse. Disgusted I wasted some of the best years of my life on it.

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Offline YZT580

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2018, 22:25:44 »
If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2018, 22:33:32 »
If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.

Except that was not the law.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 23:48:03 »
We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...

Damn rights. 3540 or bust.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2018, 03:29:59 »

I totally believe our law enforcement people are onboard and don't want these POS in our country but the vibes our government is putting out just doesn't reflect that. Quite the opposite. They seem more about welcoming these wayward and lost souls in the name of diversity and inclusion.

Mass graves are still being discovered, ISIS is still bombing people (6dead 40 injured yesterday), ISIS is still kidnapping and murdering people.  Even if we don't have video evidence of someone committing a crime let's not take the risk and give people who even just "joined ISIS" a refuge in our country. I'm comfortable and happy to keep them out and if we're forced to allow them to come here then I think them being caught with Isis or in the vicinity of is enough grounds to nail them with terrorism charges.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:23:58 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2018, 12:05:09 »
Except that was not the law.

Exactly. If we don't like this stuff happening, then we need to change our laws.

However, I've seen enough terrorists receive social services benefits from the country that is fighting against them to know that the 'long game' sometimes includes doing what seems basically schizo at the time.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline standingdown

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2018, 13:17:46 »
I'm willing to bet if any vigilante justice happens to one of these assclowns that the gov would direct more resources to convicting vigilantes than they spent trying to convict the terrorists.


Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2018, 13:20:22 »
Useful article:

Quote
Canada’s Foreign Fighter Problem is No Surprise
https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadas-foreign-fighter-problem-no-surprise

Mark
Ottawa
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Offline ontheedge

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2018, 23:19:59 »
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2018, 23:24:16 »
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

Infantry here. What point is it that you’re making?
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Offline garb811

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2018, 23:30:23 »
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.
Ontheedge:  I get it.  You're new and have a million questions and are full of what we refer to as piss and vinegar.  But at this point I'm going to advise you to take a few steps back and stop making so many posts based on assumptions.  You really aren't doing yourself a lot of favours right now and you are going to learn a lot more by letting some of these threads play out naturally than you will by what you are doing.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2018, 23:30:40 »
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

I’d caution you, as you’re an individual with no experience as a CAF member, to be more diplomatic and less judgemental with your thoughts towards how you perceive things are being done in certain areas. This was a polite suggestion, as some of your posts can be interpreted negatively.
"Stop worrying about getting back to who you were before it all went wrong. To heal is to understand that the person you've since become is the one who's most capable of doing whatever it is you were put here to do."~SR

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2018, 23:38:03 »
My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.

What’s your point?

Maybe sometimes tough people dispense controlled armed violence on those our government has deemed enemies. Got a problem with that?
Infantry for over 35 years here.
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Offline ontheedge

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2018, 00:23:00 »
I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Canadian government reached out to ISIS fighters
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2018, 00:26:16 »
Okay folks, let’s move on with the discussion. The user was inadvertently made aware of his tone by two DS posting the same advisement at the same time, plus he’s had the chance to now view how his comments were received. Good learning opportunity, now time to get back on track.

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