Topic: Seneca College Pilot Program ( CEOTP )

[Downhiller229]

How much less than 'catastrophically' would things have to go wrong for you to consider that you might not have the most recent and accurate information about the goings on at The Big 2?   

G2G

Well 2 per course would be more or less 16 per year and that would be 150% higher then the average historical rate since the new syllabus came in. is my info current? Definitely not it's at least 18 months old. But it for sure was between 4-6 per year for quite a few years, excluding medical/compassionate recourses? Maybe that's where it gets lost in translation?

But I have a hard time believing that straigh up CTs tripled in the last 18 months unless something changed dramatically.

[Griffon]

Evidence: 8 PRBs in a single week last year. One week.

Remember, CTs happen for course failure, medical issues, and voluntary withdrawals. 1-3 per course is far from an astronomical figure. We lost one guy on my course. Two from the following. It just happens. The point is getting to MJ does NOT mean you’re going to make it through.

I’m not going to get into the details of the stats as they’re unimportant, they’re obviously not in front of my face right now, and it’s not really for the public as each individual has their own experience and challenges. The point is: it happens. People fail. Don’t dwell on it. Just don’t expect success. Work for your success. Dedicate your efforts to it.

I’ll be completely honest here: instructors will always do their duty in instructing you. But if you put in exceptional effort, many will go above and beyond on the ground in facilitating further growth. Show your desire and work ethic and reap the benefits, both in training and your operational career afterwards.

[winnipegoo7]

Umm.. Did you just actually just disagree with someone who actually works for 2CFFTS?

Because no pilot’s ever been mistaken about anything ever?  That’s the first time I’ve heard a MARS officer claim that. 


 

...the stats as they’re unimportant... ... not really for the public ....

I appreciate you sharing what you've seen and experienced.

The reason I’ve been arguing about this is because there seems to be an illogical myth about pilot failure rates. This is where statistics are important as that is the only scientific way to know the rate. Obviously the CAF has these stats (I don’t expect you to know them or to share them) and I suspect that these numbers are public information (might need an access to info request). - the facts exist somewhere.

So it annoys me when some of the old guys on this site claim that the pilot failure rate is super high because they met a failed pilot once 30+ years ago.

[BurmaShave]

For hard stats, D Air Pers Strat had a spreadsheet predicting about 35% attrition end-to-end. 5% Phase 3, 5-10% Phase 2, 15-25% Phase 1, 5% other sources (these may have been recourse rates). Those are derived from some predictive model, not actual historical data (they had that, too, but this was a 15 minute conversation last year while delivering toner to 110, and my memory isn't that good).

Personal experience, no hard CTs in 3 courses of Phase I. 1 recourse each course for airsickness. However, there were absolute boatloads of PRBs. Half the prior course were PRB'd, some twice. We had about 5 of our 20 go to PRB, no doubles.

Also, winnipegoo7, I have the nagging feeling like you're not winning this one 

[winnipegoo7]

Also, winnipegoo7, I have the nagging feeling like you're not winning this one 

I just wanted ‘facts’. Thanks for sharing some more info.

Also your phase I experience sounds remarkably similar to mine.


Edit** I’ll also admit that I’m a Burmashave fan and that I probably wouldn’t have passed PHI without his assistance (if you’re  who I think you are)

[BurmaShave]

You're too kind
Despite what the big mean flight instructor says, you fly pretty well.

...I renege on my earlier comment. You're well qualified for internet arguments.

[Humphrey Bogart]

The Air Force seems to do a pretty good job screening people.  Most of my friends that were pilots when I went to RMC, passed training.  The same can't be said for all the aspiring Infantry Officers.  The Army is finally starting to catch on that one of the most expensive courses the Army runs isn't the time to be figuring out how tough or not someone is, that can probably be determined beforehand and in a heck of lot quicker period of time.  Especially when my course had a 72% failure rate, awful lot of money to be spent having to recycle almost three out of every four candidates.  Then again, there were lots of gym monkeys that weren't so strong once they lost a few nights sleep and sat out in the rain for a week straight.

[tomahawk6]

Which person will make a good officer is like throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.I am biased but the guys that stick it out for a career are officers from the ranks from our OCS.Just my opinion.

[Lumber]

Which person will make a good officer is like throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.I am biased but the guys that stick it out for a career are officers from the ranks from our OCS.Just my opinion.

I find former NCMs provide a highly valuable perspective, and I'm happy we have a process of commission from the ranks. However, I do not believe being a former NCM automatically ensures you will be a fine officer, and certainly doesn't guarantee that you will have a longer and more illustrious career than other officers. I have met/served with officers who were former NCMs who were absolute plugs; but, I have also met officers with no previous NCM service who were plugs as well.

So, like you, I think a lot of it is seeing what sticks, and that includes former NCMs.

Does anyone know off the top of their heads if any of the senior brass is a former NCM? Vance, Rouleau, Hood, Lloyd, Wynnyk? I'm pretty sure three of these guys are Royal Roads grads.

[garb811]

Which person will make a good officer is like throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.I am biased but the guys that stick it out for a career are officers from the ranks from our OCS.Just my opinion.

Sadly, the worst officers I have encountered within my Branch have all come from the ranks, primarily via SCP where they can self-nominate.

[Simian Turner]

Vance - RRMC
**Hood - Infantry as a Guardsman with the Canadian Grenadier Guards before enrolling in the Regular Force
Lloyd - RRMC
Rouleau joined the first time at 19 years old and then second time from Ottawa Police Force
Wynnyk - RRMC/RMC
Parent - CMR
St-Amand - RMC
Chapdelaine - Chap Gen served as a NCM in Reserve Medical Unit while completing his degree
Bennett -Outgoing DG CAF Strat Response to on Sexual Misconduct - joined the reserves as a Naval Communicator

[sidemount]

Sadly, the worst officers I have encountered within my Branch have all come from the ranks, primarily via SCP where they can self-nominate.

I've had the complete opposite experience. The best and hardest working Officers that looked after their troops that I have had in the last 15 years were CFRs and UTP candidates. The worst, and always seemed like they were just there for the "check in the box" were the ROTP ones. So its easy to see examples on both sides of that equation. There are good and bad officers from all backgrounds.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[MAJONES]

Through the whole process, or per stage?

Whole process.

[MAJONES]

With all due respect, are you guessing or are you an instructor/quoting an official report? I ask because it appears that you did your phase training years ago and as Downhiller229 has pointed out, there appears to be very, very few training failures after aircrew selection (at the present time). 

Also, I haven't heard of anyone failing phase I (I know some who did not pass due to medical or personal issues though). My suspicion is that aircrew selection is better now (weed out people lacking the necessary aptitude earlier) and that the CAF is short pilots so maybe they give more second chances.

Also, I found this document from 2012 (from before we switched to the new aircrew selection program - RAF style) that states,  "The RCAF pilot training success rate from selection (after testing at CFASC) to “wings” graduation is approximately 59 percent compared to 85 percent for the Royal Air Force (RAF) which has an age limit of 23 for pilot candidates.[7]"

I chaired all the PFT PRBs for about a year and now I work in a cubicle, (in Ottawa), through which pilot training attrition stats pass.

So I do believe that "back in the old days" there was a 30% failure rate, but I have trouble believing that now.



http://www.crs-csex.forces.gc.ca/reports-rapports/2012/187p0940-eng.aspx

edited - bad grammar and to improve clarity

I chaired all the PFT PRBs for about a year and now I work in a cubicle, (in Ottawa), through which pilot training attrition stats pass. 

[Lumber]

Bazinga.

[Loachman]

Whole process.

Interesting.

It was 30% in Portage alone when I went through, and 50% on the 01 courses each year. Substitution of civ instructors, who wanted the job, in place of pipeliners on the least-desired flying posting in the entire CF probably dropped that a lot. The first (trial) course in 1992 saw a 100% pass rate - but that was only ten students, all of whom were Captains with at least a couple of years in their previous occupations.

I probably owe my Wings more to having had a mature ex-Tracker instructor who was married than any great ability on my part. Had I been stuck with an RMC pipeliner whose dreams of fighter and fair-maiden-conquering glory had been shattered with three-year sentence served on Musketeers and the slim pickings of "eligible" bachelorettes denizens of the few downtown bars I'd likely have a much different username on this Site, if I ever had reason to join in the first place.

We lost a few more guys in Moose Jaw. I can't remember how many, but a few failed for flying, one for academics, at least one VR, and one medically recoursed. The total there would have been around 15% or a little higher, as a guess.

On the other hand, nobody had failed the Jet Ranger course for twelve years until the one before mine in 1982. That fellow, while between courses, fell off of his dirtbike at a track near Moose Jaw after cresting a hill and had his head run over by two (or possibly more) following bikes; it was said that he was never quite the same afterwards.

[MKW]

Vance - RRMC
**Hood - Infantry as a Guardsman with the Canadian Grenadier Guards before enrolling in the Regular Force
Lloyd - RRMC
Rouleau joined the first time at 19 years old and then second time from Ottawa Police Force
Wynnyk - RRMC/RMC
Parent - CMR
St-Amand - RMC
Chapdelaine - Chap Gen served as a NCM in Reserve Medical Unit while completing his degree
Bennett -Outgoing DG CAF Strat Response to on Sexual Misconduct - joined the reserves as a Naval Communicator

Since most RMC join straight out of high school as opposed to DEO and Commission from Ranks, it makes sense that they'd make up the bulk of the generals. They have more "time to serve" as officers, so to speak. I'll bet on average RMC officers are several years younger than their DEO counterparts, certainly over former enlisted.

CEOTP is definitely weird; we have a couple people right out of high school, and they may have some sort of advantage. They join at 18 years old, and finish their bachelor's, get their wings and make Captain by 22 (sometimes 21!). However, the makeup of the class is a bit older than that, probably averaging 21-23 ish at entry, so that advantage might not be reflected in the numbers down the line.

Ultimately there have only been two graduated classes, meaning the most experienced CEOTP pilots have been operational for 2 years. Like Burma said, only way to know for sure is to check back in a decade or two. Maybe there's a glass ceiling no one's run into yet, who knows.

[sbje1959]

I just got the news that I received my Air Factor for Pilot!

The Sergeant told me that I'm now ready for selections, but didn't know when the next one is taking place.

I'm applying for the CEOTP-AEAD program through Seneca College.

EDIT: I suppose I should actually ask a question...

What are my odds like of receiving an offer at this point? And how often are selections done? Can I hope for news soon or should I expect not to hear anything for a while?

[Lockwire]

So let me get this straight: CEOTP for PLT is pretty much like UTPNCM but easier and you get your wings within 4 years as opposed to graduating after 4 yrs and then probably being stuck in OPS OJT jobs for 3 years? God damn why doesn't everyone do this...

Just finished 10 years as AVN and thinking of applying for CEOTP instead of trying to make UTPNCM work, any tips?

You save your current pay, by pass partially BMOQ, and either live on campus or off campus with PLD?

[winnipegoo7]

So let me get this straight: CEOTP for PLT is pretty much like UTPNCM but easier and you get your wings within 4 years as opposed to graduating after 4 yrs and then probably being stuck in OPS OJT jobs for 3 years? God damn why doesn't everyone do this...

Just finished 10 years as AVN and thinking of applying for CEOTP instead of trying to make UTPNCM work, any tips?

You save your current pay, by pass partially BMOQ, and either live on campus or off campus with PLD?

Yes a Seneca pilot gets wings much sooner.

Idk if Seneca is easier than say, basket weaving at some university.

There are only so many positions, so not everyone can do it, also you have to be medically fit, pass selection, and be selected.

The current post ROTP/UTPNCM wait time for phase 2 seems to be 6 - 9 months.

I don’t think a reg F member can apply for CEOTP (had a buddy try was told no). So it’s more like ROTP.

You’ll have to do UTPNCM; or switch to res f and then apply to CEOTP; or release and apply for CEOTP.
 

UTPNCM has pay protection, can live off campus, can get pld (depending which school) and you’d only have to do mod 2 BMOQ (unless you have plq, then you can bypass both mods)

I recommend UTP if you’re reg f.
 

[garb811]

Reg Force can indeed apply for CEOTP, see DAOD 5002-6.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw a CANFORGEN last week that was specifically targeting the Seneca CEOTP pilot program.

[winnipegoo7]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I have not seen a CEOTP solicitation message in the last few years (maybe 5 years?).  If you say there is a solicitation message for CEOTP for pilot I'll take your word for it, but I haven't seen one recently.


** and that friend I mentioned, he tried to get into the Seneca program last year, but the PSO told him that he had to apply for UTPNCM.

*** strangely the DAOD doesn't mention the Seneca program.

Cheers

[sidemount]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I have not seen a CEOTP solicitation message in the last few years (maybe 5 years?).  If you say there is a solicitation message for CEOTP for pilot I'll take your word for it, but I haven't seen one recently.


** and that friend I mentioned, he tried to get into the Seneca program last year, but the PSO told him that he had to apply for UTPNCM.

*** strangely the DAOD doesn't mention the Seneca program.

Cheers

Funny you should say that, I havent seen on either but a canforgen dated 17 may was just released for 2019 ceotp competition.
ACSO
PLT
AEC
EME

Sent from my S8 using Tapatalk (expect typos)

[K1tesurf]

Funny you should say that, I havent seen on either but a canforgen dated 17 may was just released for 2019 ceotp competition.
ACSO
PLT
AEC
EME

Sent from my S8 using Tapatalk (expect typos)

sssshhhhhh. No one needs to know

[winnipegoo7]

Is it for Seneca or is it just the “regular” CEOTP?

Edit. Answering my own question. Yes it’s for Seneca.

I say go for it, but if you fail pilot training there might be extra problems as you will only have one year of school done (as opposed to utpncm who would have a degree) I’m not sure what other trades you would be offered.