Author Topic: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]  (Read 1051538 times)

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Offline Shrinjay

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2450 on: August 19, 2018, 04:43:59 »
Can you elaborate on "internships and coops"?

I'm not an engineer, but I don't recall ever hearing about engineering programs have internships or coops as part of their university curriculums.

The ROTP program provides you with 4 years of paid education (there are some exceptions). If the school your are attending has as part of its curriculum a coop or internship program, then that would be covered, as it is part of your "education". If, for example, the 2nd half of years 3 of your program involves you working at an engineering firm, then as long as that is part of the curriculum and is necessary for the completion of your baccalaureate, well then that's what we're paying for.

Unless I'm not understanding what you mean by internships and coop?

It's basically work experience programs. Most don't require it but Waterloo offers it as a large part of their curriculum, as do most other universities. I'm not sure if it's mandatory at Waterloo or not, but coop works where you work one term at an engineering firm and study for two terms. Any idea how it would work with the military?

Offline TwoTonShackle

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2451 on: August 19, 2018, 12:27:25 »
For you to participate in the co-op program you would need permission from the SEM through the local ULO. You'd have to request a leave of absence while you were employed in the co-op terms. All of this still doesn't guarantee you get a co-op placement though.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2452 on: August 19, 2018, 13:42:43 »
It's basically work experience programs. Most don't require it but Waterloo offers it as a large part of their curriculum, as do most other universities. I'm not sure if it's mandatory at Waterloo or not, but coop works where you work one term at an engineering firm and study for two terms. Any idea how it would work with the military?

Is there a specific reason why you are so interested in "co-op" programs?  Or is it the specific university (Waterloo?) and they seem to make co-op programs an attractive way (especially financially) to complete a degree?  You aren't the first to ask the Waterloo question in this forum University of Waterloo Students Enrolled in ROTP .

If one of the reasons you are looking at a co-op program is the financial incentive of earning extra money during the work terms, then you would be out of luck.  While work term employers have to pay co-op students, in the case of ROTP students since they are already paid by the government they are not permitted to keep any additional pay provided for their work term services.  Since you seem to be interested in engineering programs, it may be a moot point, but if you were accepted to pursue a co-op degree program under ROTP you would be limited to only a few occupations.

Quote
CFAO 9-12 -- REGULAR OFFICER TRAINING PLAN

4.     Normally successful candidates will be selected for attendance at a
CMC; however, for a variety of reasons, some candidates are selected for
academic training at other academic institutions. Candidates who already
are attending university when they apply for the ROTP normally will
continue their courses at that university. Candidates selected to attend a
civilian university and who elect to study in a co-operative engineering
programme are restricted to the AERE, CELE, EME, and MARE occupations
. In
addition to the normal academic progression expected, members must complete
successfully the approved training/employment during work-periods to
qualify for continued subsidization.

And there is also the training timeline to consider.  After a quick look at Waterloo's site https://uwaterloo.ca/future-students/co-op, it appears that if one followed their co-op schedule, the military training that normally occurs during the summer months between school years would have to be postponed until a degree was completed.  But Waterloo also provides a regular (non co-op) system of study.
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Offline Shrinjay

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2453 on: August 24, 2018, 18:18:06 »
Is there a specific reason why you are so interested in "co-op" programs?  Or is it the specific university (Waterloo?) and they seem to make co-op programs an attractive way (especially financially) to complete a degree?  You aren't the first to ask the Waterloo question in this forum University of Waterloo Students Enrolled in ROTP .

If one of the reasons you are looking at a co-op program is the financial incentive of earning extra money during the work terms, then you would be out of luck.  While work term employers have to pay co-op students, in the case of ROTP students since they are already paid by the government they are not permitted to keep any additional pay provided for their work term services.  Since you seem to be interested in engineering programs, it may be a moot point, but if you were accepted to pursue a co-op degree program under ROTP you would be limited to only a few occupations.

And there is also the training timeline to consider.  After a quick look at Waterloo's site https://uwaterloo.ca/future-students/co-op, it appears that if one followed their co-op schedule, the military training that normally occurs during the summer months between school years would have to be postponed until a degree was completed.  But Waterloo also provides a regular (non co-op) system of study.

First of all thanks for the incredibly detailed answer. Yeah the reasoning is mostly financial, but since it turns out you can't keep the extra pay, there's no point. I also didn't look at the coop schedule. Not dojnf coop is not a huge deal, the military is the work experience after all. Anyways thanks for the info.

I'd like to thank everyone in this thread, y'all are great. I know I've been asking a lot of questions, some stupid, but I need a lotta info. I'm hell bent on joining the military, my family isn't as enthusiastic. If I join, I'd be the first one in my family's recorded history to serve in the military, so my family doesn't really understand my choice. So I've been trying to get all the information I can so I can use that to help me with the ongoing negotiations.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 18:37:56 by Shrinjay »

Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2454 on: August 29, 2018, 10:54:41 »
So I have a couple of questions about civi u rotp. Say I apply for a couple Civi uni's (looking at Waterloo, UBC, UofA, in that order), as long as I get accepted into one the CF will allow me to go there and pay for the tuition? Or is it only if you need to go to a civi u? Is there a cap on how much tuition they'll pay, since one of those uni's are very expensive.

How does residence work, do you get anything for it or do you just have to hope the salary gets you by (which it won't in UBC). Can you stay at quarters at a nearby base if available?

Is getting a second job allowed at all? Or doing work terms, coop, internships etc. This is going to be important so if I can't, I may just go to RMC.

I'd like to thank everyone for their help in advance.

As a general rule, you are applying for entry into the Canadian Forces under an officer entry plan.  That's the first part.  After you have been accepted into ROTP, THEN the CAF will decide where you go.  The first choice is always RMC, unless the program that the CAF wants you to pursue (our choice not necessarily yours, although we consider your preferences with your choice being to accept what we offer, or not) is not available at RMC or there are no spots left at RMC.

If you are selected for ROTP Civi U, then you may receive PLD if your school is in an area where PLD is payable.  If there is a base nearby and there is room in the officers' quarters, you may be able to stay there, but keep in mind that you have to pay for that (monthly deduction on your pay, but you cannot be charged more than you earn).  There is no cap on tuition or on any mandatory fees, including mandatory student fees.  You will also be reimbursed for any required equipment and text books.

I don't know exactly how coop payment would work, but other types of jobs are generally OK. QR&O 19.42 (Civil Employment) covers this.  If you want to go work part-time at McDonalds, you should be OK ("continuous" employment is prohibited).  In general, CAF regulations do not prohibit "moonlighting" other than a general requirement that it cannot interfere with your primary duty.  In your case, going to school and getting educated is your primary duty, so theoretically, you could be disciplined if you are caught cutting class (whether you were doing that for a part-time job or other reasons) or if your part time job somehow prevented you from succeeding in your degree program.  However, your University Liaison Officer (ULO) cannot otherwise prevent you from getting a part-time job.  If the ULO for Montreal told ROTP students they couldn't get part-time jobs, he was wrong to do so. Apparently, moonlighting is actually encouraged in some medical/dental occupations because it provides experience that looking after a basically healthy population does not.

When I was on ROTP (Civi U), I lived in the local officers' mess and worked part time at a department store to supplement my $800 gross monthly salary.  Sadly, neither that officers' mess (CFB Toronto), nor that department store (Eaton's) still exist, but I'm not taking the blame for that one.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 13:25:57 by Pusser »
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2455 on: August 29, 2018, 11:13:22 »
Sadly, neither that officers' mess (CFB Toronto), nor that department store (Eaton's) still exist, but I'm not taking the blame for that one.

I don't know - how many ships did you sail in that are no longer in service?  How many bases did you serve at that are no longer in use?

...there seems to be a common thread coming out...
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Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2456 on: August 29, 2018, 13:17:58 »
I don't know - how many ships did you sail in that are no longer in service?  How many bases did you serve at that are no longer in use?

...there seems to be a common thread coming out...

Every base, except Toronto is still in use (it really would be difficult to get rid of the naval ones).  However, every ship except ORIOLE has now been sent to scrap or has become a marine park.  I still say it's all coincidence...
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Offline Calvillo

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2457 on: August 29, 2018, 15:36:16 »
As a general rule, you are applying for entry into the Canadian Forces under an officer entry plan.  That's the first part.  After you have been accepted into ROTP, THEN the CAF will decide where you go.  The first choice is always RMC, unless the program that the CAF wants you to pursue (our choice not necessarily yours, although we consider your preferences with your choice being to accept what we offer, or not) is not available at RMC or there are no spots left at RMC.

First of all, if my post below reads a little bit crass, I apologize. It is certainly not meant to be.

So suppose my son applies to RMC (via ROTP) and a number of civilian universities. Suppose that he is accepted in the RMC and civilian universities in the same program. For example let us say that he gets accepted at Mechanical Engineering programs at RMC and at McGill. Is it possible for him to decline RMC, choose McGill instead and keep the ROTP? Reason? Well, Mechanical Engineering at McGill is arguably the best and most competitive in Canada. RMC is nowhere close academically.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2458 on: August 29, 2018, 16:32:25 »
. . . . Is it possible for him to decline RMC, choose McGill instead and keep the ROTP? Reason? Well, Mechanical Engineering at McGill is arguably the best and most competitive in Canada. RMC is nowhere close academically.

Let's look at it this way.  The Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) is a programme to generate officers who hopefully go on to careers in the Canadian Forces.  It is not intended to subsidize individuals to get the "best and most competitive" education possible in Canada.  The subsidization of post secondary education is simply an acceptable method by which the government can attract individuals to join and stay in the Forces for at least a limited period after meeting a minimal education standard.  The criteria of providing "Little Johnny" the best and most competitive education available doesn't figure in.  The government keeps the Royal Military College open at great expense because at one time they determined that it would be a cost effective way to give potential officers a good education (academic and military).  There are, however, limitations on what the RMC can provide.  They don't have degree programmes applicable for all uniformed occupations; mostly these are in the health services, i.e. doctors, dentists, nurses, etc.  Some individuals are already well into their undergrad programs at a civilian university and it would not make sense to make them start over at RMC (one of its limitation is that the programme is designed on starting at year one and going the full four years in its unique military environment).  And then it has an actual space problem in terms of facilities and faculty - it is a small university both in student body and physical plant - one reason why a potential ROTP cadet may need to attend a civilian university is because the need for officers in that particular year exceeds the capacity of RMC.  And the reverse is also considered, why would the government subsidize someone to attend a civilian education when the same degree is available at RMC and if he doesn't go, there would be unused capacity.
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Offline Calvillo

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2459 on: August 30, 2018, 09:52:08 »
Thank you for the explanation and pardon me for not understanding the in and out of the CF properly. I was thinking about the U.S. model in responding to this thread. Over there, while there are service academies, there are also ROTC programs in universities. Therefore, a high school graduate can choose to go to MIT for example and join the NROTC there, and receive 4-year scholarship, rather than go to Annapolis; providing that s/he is accepted at both institutions. At the end, if successful, s/he will be commissioned as a Naval Officer just the same. Obviously this is not how it works in the Canadian Forces.

Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2460 on: August 30, 2018, 15:42:17 »
Thank you for the explanation and pardon me for not understanding the in and out of the CF properly. I was thinking about the U.S. model in responding to this thread. Over there, while there are service academies, there are also ROTC programs in universities. Therefore, a high school graduate can choose to go to MIT for example and join the NROTC there, and receive 4-year scholarship, rather than go to Annapolis; providing that s/he is accepted at both institutions. At the end, if successful, s/he will be commissioned as a Naval Officer just the same. Obviously this is not how it works in the Canadian Forces.

Keep in mind that ROTP in Canada meansRegularOfficer Training Program and that ROTC in the US stands for Reserve Officer Training Corps.  Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces, they remain Reserve officers which has certain implications with regard to career progression and even job security.  Virtually , the only way to get a regular commission in the US Armed Forces is through the service academies and I think, maybe, The Citadel and VMI.  Although ROTC and ROTP appear similar in many ways, in many others they are quite different.
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Offline Calvillo

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2461 on: August 31, 2018, 10:51:29 »
Keep in mind that ROTP in Canada meansRegularOfficer Training Program and that ROTC in the US stands for Reserve Officer Training Corps.  Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces, they remain Reserve officers which has certain implications with regard to career progression and even job security.  Virtually , the only way to get a regular commission in the US Armed Forces is through the service academies and I think, maybe, The Citadel and VMI.  Although ROTC and ROTP appear similar in many ways, in many others they are quite different.

Beg pardon sir, but your information regarding ROTC graduates is incorrect. ROTC graduates are required to serve a number of year as an active duty officer. In the U.S. military if I am not mistaken 'active duty' means working for the military full time. For example Naval Officers graduates from NROTC are required to serve 5 years of active military service.

http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/military_requirements.html

As such, ROTC graduates have the same opportunities as service academies graduates and many high-ranking officers come from ROTC. Current active O-10s who graduate from ROTC include Gen Dunford (CJCS), GEN Milley (CSA), Gen Wilson (VCSAF) and ADM Grady (COMUSFF).

Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2462 on: September 04, 2018, 11:10:44 »
Beg pardon sir, but your information regarding ROTC graduates is incorrect. ROTC graduates are required to serve a number of year as an active duty officer. In the U.S. military if I am not mistaken 'active duty' means working for the military full time. For example Naval Officers graduates from NROTC are required to serve 5 years of active military service.

http://www.nrotc.navy.mil/military_requirements.html

As such, ROTC graduates have the same opportunities as service academies graduates and many high-ranking officers come from ROTC. Current active O-10s who graduate from ROTC include Gen Dunford (CJCS), GEN Milley (CSA), Gen Wilson (VCSAF) and ADM Grady (COMUSFF).

Did you miss the part where I said, "Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces,...?"  Being on full time active service doesn't mean they're not Reserve officers.  We have Reserve officers in the Canadian Forces who have effectively completed full careers on full time service as well.  This doesn't change anything or make what I said inaccurate.  My point, however, is that notwithstanding being on full time service, being a Reserve officer in either the Canadian or American Armed Forces, has certain implications that can affect pay, pensions and job security.  Having worked with a number of Americans in international HQs, I've actually had a chance to talk to a number of them.  When the US Armed Forces were downsized a number of years ago, the Reserve officers (e.g. ROTC/NROTC) were the first to be involuntarily let go, while the jobs of those with regular commissions (i.e. from the service academies) were relatively secure.

Having said all of this, it doesn't really matter in this case because we're really only talking about what is available in Canada.  Although ROTP (Civy U) and ROTC may look similar on the surface, they are actually quite different.  A better Canadian comparison to ROTC would be a university student who joins a Reserve unit while attending school and takes advantage of the education programs offered through the Canadian Forces Reserve.  However, even that is fundamentally different from ROTC in that the school has nothing to do with the program.  The school provides no instruction, coordination or even a venue for training.
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Offline Calvillo

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2463 on: September 04, 2018, 12:55:06 »
Did you miss the part where I said, "Although an ROTC officer can go on to a full career in the US Armed Forces,...?"  Being on full time active service doesn't mean they're not Reserve officers.  We have Reserve officers in the Canadian Forces who have effectively completed full careers on full time service as well.  This doesn't change anything or make what I said inaccurate.  My point, however, is that notwithstanding being on full time service, being a Reserve officer in either the Canadian or American Armed Forces, has certain implications that can affect pay, pensions and job security.  Having worked with a number of Americans in international HQs, I've actually had a chance to talk to a number of them.  When the US Armed Forces were downsized a number of years ago, the Reserve officers (e.g. ROTC/NROTC) were the first to be involuntarily let go, while the jobs of those with regular commissions (i.e. from the service academies) were relatively secure.

Having said all of this, it doesn't really matter in this case because we're really only talking about what is available in Canada.  Although ROTP (Civy U) and ROTC may look similar on the surface, they are actually quite different.  A better Canadian comparison to ROTC would be a university student who joins a Reserve unit while attending school and takes advantage of the education programs offered through the Canadian Forces Reserve.  However, even that is fundamentally different from ROTC in that the school has nothing to do with the program.  The school provides no instruction, coordination or even a venue for training.

Very well sir, thank you for your information. I am more enlightened now on what options my son can or can not choose.

Offline Shrinjay

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2464 on: September 09, 2018, 21:56:01 »
So what this post is telling me is I'm going to have to give them a damn good reason why I should be able to go to a civi u? I read somewhere that you need to submit an essay, is this true?

Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2465 on: September 10, 2018, 10:35:53 »
So what this post is telling me is I'm going to have to give them a damn good reason why I should be able to go to a civi u? I read somewhere that you need to submit an essay, is this true?

If you're not going into a program that simply isn't offered at RMC, I wouldn't bother.  Trying to tell the system that you don't feel the premier route into the system is good enough (or that you're to good for it), isn't exactly setting yourself up for selection.

When I applied, I made it clear that I wanted to go to RMC, even if it meant doing an extra year (I already had one year completed at Civy U).  They left me at the Civy U.  A friend of mine essentially told them that RMC's program wasn't as good as the one he was enrolled in at a Civy U.  He's remained a civilian his entire working life.  I'm retiring next year.  He's not.
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Offline Shrinjay

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2466 on: September 10, 2018, 12:17:26 »
Right, that's interesting. I don't want to tell the system that obviously, and I want to have a good chance for selection, but is there really that little chance of being able to go to civi u for engineering? If I mention I'm open to going to civi u instead of RMC would that impact my selection?

Offline Schwartzie55

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2467 on: September 10, 2018, 12:32:15 »
I did some research and spoke to my RC about exactly what you’re asking. All engineering is at RMC. Unless you are already enrolled in that program at civi u they may leave you there but most likely they would move you to RMC. You have very little chance of going there instead of RMC. The demand for engineers by the CF has to exceed capacity at RMC and it rarely does as engineering is the primary focus of the College. 41% if graduates are engineering.

Offline Shrinjay

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2468 on: September 12, 2018, 01:33:14 »
I did some research and spoke to my RC about exactly what you’re asking. All engineering is at RMC. Unless you are already enrolled in that program at civi u they may leave you there but most likely they would move you to RMC. You have very little chance of going there instead of RMC. The demand for engineers by the CF has to exceed capacity at RMC and it rarely does as engineering is the primary focus of the College. 41% if graduates are engineering.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the information!

Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2469 on: September 19, 2018, 11:44:18 »
Right, that's interesting. I don't want to tell the system that obviously, and I want to have a good chance for selection, but is there really that little chance of being able to go to civi u for engineering? If I mention I'm open to going to civi u instead of RMC would that impact my selection?

Expressing a willingness to go to civi U for Engineering should not hurt your chances for selection.  Remember though that an ROTP application is an application for enrollment as an officer in the CAF and even though the CAF wants you to have a degree, that's actually kind of secondary.  First you get accepted into the program, then we decide where you go for this step. 

Do not put all your eggs in one basket.  Make sure you apply to civilian universities as well.  If you're not accepted into ROTP the first year, there is still a possibility you can get picked up in later years (where your chances of remaining at the civi U are really quite good).
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Offline Vitech

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2470 on: September 20, 2018, 09:04:21 »
I am in a civ uni degree program with 2.5 years remaining. I’ve read that you are expected to go to BMOQ during the summer, my question is whether or not this is required. Firstly, the university has classes during the summer as well, meaning I could finish my degree quicker. The second reason that I would want to postpone BMOQ is because I am a single parent, and it would make more sense not to change my children’s living arrangements until after university (they would be moving to stay with my mother). Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in this regard? I would also like to know if it is possible to be accepted into rotp for the upcoming January 2019 semester.

Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2471 on: September 21, 2018, 10:09:00 »
I am in a civ uni degree program with 2.5 years remaining. I’ve read that you are expected to go to BMOQ during the summer, my question is whether or not this is required. Firstly, the university has classes during the summer as well, meaning I could finish my degree quicker. The second reason that I would want to postpone BMOQ is because I am a single parent, and it would make more sense not to change my children’s living arrangements until after university (they would be moving to stay with my mother). Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in this regard? I would also like to know if it is possible to be accepted into rotp for the upcoming January 2019 semester.

The Recruiting Centre is always your best source of information.  I'm not a recruiter and my experience in this regard is decades old.  However, as a general rule, we like to get personnel through basic training as soon as we can.  Why would we invest in your education, only to have you fail BMOQ in the end?  The sooner we determine if you will make a suitable officer, the better off everyone (including you) will be.  Not to be too cynical, do you really expect the CAF to pay for the remainder of your education before you have proven yourself?  Although BMOQ is not an especially difficult course, one needs to do more than simply attend.  Thousands have passed.  Hundreds have failed.

In terms of funding your subsidized education, we work in fiscal years (1 Apr - 31 Mar).  Therefore, the likelihood of funding you for a semester is low.  If there is sufficient funding available for FY 18/19, there is a possibility you could be reimbursed for classes starting in Sep 18; however, that only happens if we didn't recruit enough last year and I'm not sure that ever happens for ROTP candidates (it's more likely with medical and dental applicants).  The most likely scenario is that you would be picked up for subsidization starting in Sep 19.
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Offline stoker dave

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2472 on: September 21, 2018, 13:45:16 »
Well, Mechanical Engineering at McGill is arguably the best and most competitive in Canada. RMC is nowhere close academically.

While others have addressed this, please let me chime in.

I am an RMC engineering graduate.  I served for a number of years and have been practicing as an engineer in the civilian world for decades. 

You are correct that, academically, RMC is not on par with the best of Canada's universities.  But, as others have indicated,  that is not the point.  It provides a very good education, along with a huge number of other skills and experiences that no other university can provide. 

For anyone's future, it is necessary to balance whether you want to go to a top academic university or the more rounded experience (with associated preparation for a career as a military officer).  Only the applicant can make that choice. 

As a practicing engineer and manager, I make hiring decisions.  I don't always want the smartest person (or the person from the "best" university) but the guy (or girl) that can be relied upon to show up on time, with the right kit, get along with others, take responsibility for their work, write a coherent report and solve problems on their own.  I think RMC does a pretty good job at developing individuals with those skills and characteristics. 

Offline kratz

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2473 on: September 21, 2018, 14:06:04 »
Quote from: stoker dave
As a practicing engineer and manager, I make hiring decisions.  I don't always want the smartest person (or the person from the "best" university) but the guy (or girl) that can be relied upon to show up on time, with the right kit, get along with others, take responsibility for their work, write a coherent report and solve problems on their own. I think RMC does a pretty good job at developing individuals with those skills and characteristics.

Soft skills are gradually beginning to become more valuable than many qualifications people hold. Being "book smart" and unable to adequately function in the workplace is as much a poor hire as someone unqualified.
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Offline Vitech

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2474 on: September 21, 2018, 18:58:48 »
Why would we invest in your education, only to have you fail BMOQ in the end?  The sooner we determine if you will make a suitable officer, the better off everyone (including you) will be.  Not to be too cynical, do you really expect the CAF to pay for the remainder of your education before you have proven yourself?  Although BMOQ is not an especially difficult course, one needs to do more than simply attend.  Thousands have passed.  Hundreds have failed

Yes that is what I was expecting. It seems to me that BMOQ would be the easiest part of ROTP, and I would wager that caf has wasted more money on people who could not get passing grades in university than they have on those who failed BMOQ. It was also my understanding that failing the ROTP program will result in being required to pay back the funding, so there is little risk to caf in this case.

A better question is why, after finishing my degree,  why wouldn’t I want to work from home making 50% more than a  DEO signals officer. Maybe I would still want to out of pride, but caf is taking the risk that I might find a civilian job that I would enjoy. I suspect that the majority of DEO are coming from the bottom of their graduating class, and have a hard time finding a six figure salary like their peers. Recruiting needs to rethink their strategy if they really want to be hiring the best.