Author Topic: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect  (Read 7775 times)

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Offline BLACKBERRY(Banned)

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Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« on: September 19, 2004, 17:50:59 »
I am transferring to reg force when I finish my degree next year. Will the men treat me a bit better because I have a little experience, and I will be joining at the age of 31 so is it still possible for me to ever become a LTCOL or higher?

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2004, 18:03:35 »
Respect is something you will have to earn through competence and good leadership; although someones background may put them in a better light, it shouldn't give them the automatic respect of others.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 00:08:56 »
Quote
I am transferring to reg force when I finish my degree next year. Will the men treat me a bit better because I have a little experience, and I will be joining at the age of 31 so is it still possible for me to ever become a LTCOL or higher?

Blackberry: First, stop worrying about what rank you will get to and focus on being a good officer.

Second, heed the words of Infanteer:

Quote
Respect is something you will have to earn through competence and good leadership; although someones background may put them in a better light, it shouldn't give them the automatic respect of others.

There is nothing harder to win, nor easier to lose, than the respect of the Canadian soldier. You will only ever earn it: you can never demand it. Those fools who beak off about "demanding respect" will at best get grudging obedience. Obedience can be mandated: respect cannot, nor can loyalty.

My story is similar to yours. After eight years as a Reserve Infantry soldier, I achieved the rank of WO. I did not like officers very much, and many of them did not particularly like me. In fact, I was proposed for commissioning in my unit twice, and twice turned down, the second time with the comment (anecdotally) "He will always be an NCO..." I reached a point in my life at which I needed to make a career decision, so I decided to go Regular, because I enjoyed military life. I was going to go in the NCM route, but   a PPCLI MWO convinced me to try the officer route instead. So I did, at age 24. (I was a good 4-5 years older than my peers in officer trg)

I found BOTC relatively easy (except for the PT and rucking up the mountains: like most Res soldiers I was not fit...). I found the Inf School started out easy, but got harder as the training moved beyond my experience base. However, I am quite sure that my Res experience helped me get through those two schools. As I commented on another thread, those with Res experience who go through RegF DP1 should IMHO keep their mouths shut, work hard, and help their less knowledgeable "civvy" buddies. Don't beak off about your Res time. If you know it, show it.

After those DP1 schools were over, I found that while my background helped me greatly in dealing with WOs/NCOs and soldiers, it did me little good on the various officer courses I began to go on: I had to start from scratch.

My advice for a person of your age is to be prepared to train alongside, and be trained by, people younger than you. As well, at your age, you will probably need to make an extra effort to prepare yourself physically.(Unless of course you are already a fit person, in which case keep it up).

Good luck. I can honestly say that after 30 years I regret verly little about my decision. Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 20:48:56 »
hmmm

seems to me this sounds a little too quriky.  I feel that this is a set up question to get a forum going.  You are a reserve NCM and are worried how the other ranks will accept you with your experience?  You then ask about age factor.....

Don't know what reserve unit you served in, but I think you can figure it out yourself if you ever had to serve witht the reg force as a resevist. . . . yer going to get hacked on until you prove yourself, i.e earning the respect regardless of the rank.

As for age , if you feel that you are a good NCM, and have had experience in a leadership role, thent he transition into a commissioned rank should be seamless.  Leadership is leadership regardless of the rank, and definatley of age.

I seem to recall a post where you put into question the percentage of blacks in the military and were called out then by certain memebers.  But I have to admit it worked, because I fell into the trap and posted.

Tess

I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline HollywoodHitman

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2004, 13:17:24 »
I'm gonna have to go with the pack on this one. I'm considering my commission and I'm considering it very carefully. As a rental, I'm one to avoid reserve courses if at all possible, because having been in a position to command reg force troops, it adds instant credibility when and if they ask you what your background is. If you are seriously going to become an officer, keep your reserve experience quiet. The guys will respect you more (those you train with and then those you command) if you just simply use your common sense and DO the job, just don't talk the job. Respect and credibility will come in time and at the end of the day it won't matter if you're a rental or a reg.

The other little nugget of advice which was just recently given to me by a very senior reg force NCO is this......Don't forget the qualities that you looked for in a good officer when you were a troop. Don't forget where you came from either. Solicit the advice and leadership of your senior NCO's and don't discount the younger, seemingly more inexperienced ones.....Last thing that was suggested to me was to participate in the grubby, unpleasant work your troops participate in, and don't complain about it....That shows that you won't ask them to do something you wouldnt do and it'll also show them you didn't become an officer so you can be 'better' than they are.......

If you're gonna do it, good luck. I'm still sitting on the fence........ :salute: :cdn:
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Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2004, 14:13:32 »
Quote
As a rental


"Rental"? Where did this term come from? Is it meant in good spirit or is it  just another dim-witted Regular Army insult towards Reservists? Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline bossi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2004, 14:37:43 »
Um, I'm kinda thinkin' it was self-deprecating humour
(i.e. the person who called himself a "rental" is actually a reservist)

Having said that, I can recall when the expressions "Office Overload" and "Temps" were used at LFCA HQ.

Personally, I prefer the concept "farm team"
(i.e. the Reg Force is "the big league", and reservists are "farmhands" who from time to time are called up to the big league ... where they can stay as long as their level of play warrants it ... just like AHL players can be called up to the NHL, and sometimes end up staying there and winning the Cup)

As another aside, one of the things I enjoyed most in Afghanistan was the team spirit (i.e. "Total Force")
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 18:11:33 by bossi »
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2004, 16:33:06 »
hahaha rental, I haven't heard that in ages!

I remembered the first time I was called one on my pre training.  My response was

"I would rather be rented than owned!"

It was the last time I was called a rental. . . .

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2004, 00:41:30 »

hahaha rental, I haven't heard that in ages!

I remembered the first time I was called one on my pre training. My response was

"I would rather be rented than owned!"

It was the last time I was called a rental. . . .

tess

When I was a Militia soldier we used to say: "Yeah-we're Militia: we just drop by for the wars..."

Um, I'm kinda thinkin' it was self-deprecating humour
(i.e. the person who called himself a "rental" is actually a reservist)

Having said that, I can recall when the expressions "Office Overload" and "Temps" were used at LFCA HQ.

Personally, I prefer the concept "farm team"
(i.e. the Reg Force is "the big league", and reservists are "farmhands" who from time to time are called up to the big league ... where they can stay as long as their level of play warrants it ... just like AHL players can be called up to the NHL, and sometimes end up staying there and winning the Cup)

As another aside, one of the things I enjoyed most in Afghanistan was the team spirit (i.e. "Total Force")

Ok, seen. When I was in LFCA (you remember that, right...?) I thought that in the G3 shop anyway we had an excellent "Total Force" team with each staff offr/NCO working to their strengths, and no rubbish about Reg/Res. IMHO that shop would not have functioned without Res guys in it. Do you guys still go to The Slug since you reloc?  Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline SO

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2004, 01:16:32 »
Ok, seen. When I was in LFCA (you remember that, right...?) I thought that in the G3 shop anyway we had an excellent "Total Force" team with each staff offr/NCO working to their strengths, and no rubbish about Reg/Res. IMHO that shop would not have functioned without Res guys in it.

Working for Bde, I haven't noticed any real Reg vs. Reserve issues. On the Armoury floor, the big distinction made is between full and part-timers (with some of the full-timers occasionally requiring gentle reminders that the Class As are our raison d'etre).

I have occasionally been known to refer to myself and fellow Class B's as "the 15% solution". And a bargain we are...  :-\

Offline BLACKBERRY(Banned)

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2004, 02:02:51 »
Thanks for everyones advice. I plan on starting my component transfer at the end of this term, and I look forward to serving in the PPCLI were I will do my best in whatever challenges come my way.

Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2004, 02:19:29 »
Quote
and I look forward to serving in the PPCLI

As you should. ;) Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline HollywoodHitman

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2004, 05:19:53 »
Hey guys,

Yeah you're right, I AM a reservist. A proud one at that. I was raised by Patricias and taught throughout the years by guys with alot of experience. It's made me a good soldier and I've managed to get the happy balance where most people are VERY surprised when they find out I am a reservist. I like to poke a little fun at myself, as in the past I've probably taken things a little too seriously. Good soldiers are good soldiers.

Never had any real issues as far as the percieved reg/reserve rivalry goes. I'm a soldier, you're a soldier. You give up things to soldier, so do I. We're on the same team and thats all there is to it. Regs and reservists have fought along side one another, within the last 12 years or so........Improved the relationship between those who were there ( I was too young, but watched the changes) and I think opened the eyes to the reg's that we'll be there for them if we're needed.

At the end of the day, we wear the same uniform, love our country and there's alot to be said for people who do what we do.
"There is no charge for awesomeness....Or Attractiveness."
                  -Kung Fu Panda

Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2004, 05:56:31 »
Quote
At the end of the day, we wear the same uniform, love our country and there's alot to be said for people who do what we do.

And, in the end, that's all that matters. Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline bossi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2004, 05:27:43 »

When I was a Militia soldier we used to say: "Yeah-we're Militia: we just drop by for the wars..."

Ok, seen. When I was in LFCA (you remember that, right...?) I thought that in the G3 shop anyway we had an excellent "Total Force" team with each staff offr/NCO working to their strengths, and no rubbish about Reg/Res. IMHO that shop would not have functioned without Res guys in it. Do you guys still go to The Slug since you reloc?   Cheers.

Good-natured teasing is always fun - long ago, the joke was that the Reg Force was "ESSO" (Every Saturday and Sunday Off), and the Militia was "Shell" (we go further with less, referring to an old TV commercial).
Today, however, on any given weekend you'll find professionals from both the Militia and Reg Force working side by side.  Also, it seems the distinction between Reg and Reserve must be blurred - I've lost count of how many times I've been asked "You're Reg Force, right?" (as the saying goes, "Competence, like truth, beauty and contact lenses, is in the eye of the beholder")

Unfortunately, as of late there seems to have been some monumental lapses in understanding - specifically, long-term contracts class "B" contracts are being given out - all ending on March 31st - without the realisation that any contract under 180 days automatically deprives the reservist of dental, medical and other benefits.
It's not being done maliciously - it's simply happening because somebody is asleep at the switch
(sure - the bureaucratic reply is "no financial commitment beyond this fiscal year" ... but that's baloney - if a reservist is being hired "fulltime", then somebody should be looking out for them - "Know your troops, and promote their welfare").  The ultimate irony is when reservists are responsible for screwing over their fellow reservists, simply because they're afraid of rocking the boat (and losing their own callout) when in fact the higher-ups would gladly rule in favour of more compassionate and benevolent treatment of the troops (it's called a "command decision"!)

As for the Slug - since I got back from Afghanistan I've heard the JOG resurrected (Junior Officer Grog), but not back to the Slug for reasons of time and space ("Space can be recovered, but never lost time". Napoleon).  There's a mess in the armoury, but as always there's the drive home to be considered ...
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Offline dglad

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2004, 07:28:10 »
I am a Res office commanding a Cdn operation.  I have Reg F and Res F pers working for me in my national role, and have "Reg F" and "Res F" from various nations working for and with me in my multinational role (terms are given with "s because these aren't necessarily the correct terms for other nations, but the concepts apply).  I have had NO issue with the mix, in either role.  I've found that there is a tremendous mutual respect among Reg F and Res F when it comes to Canadians; deviations are explained by specific attributes of individuals, not their component.  I find the same thing, generally, in Canada, with only few exceptions.

Contrast to even 10 years ago, and certainly 20 years ago, when Res F pers were widely treated with an attitude ranging from mild disdain to outright contempt by their Reg F counterparts.  I think the change has to do with the fact that the Res F today is far more professional that it once was; frankly, large parts of the Res F used to be a social club and little more (main effort--the Mess).  That isn't, in my experience, anyway, anywhere near as true today (aberrations remain, but they'll soon be extinguished, one hopes).  The Res F has become far more professional; we have lots of Res F soldiers with multiple op tours, the ind standards are generally higher, and we make much more of an effort at measuring collective performance and communicating lessons.

So the bottom line is that the Res background is useful experience, but that's all.  It's how you apply that experience, the knowledge you've gained, and combine that with the new skills and abilities you will learn, that will matter to your Reg F subordinates, peers and superiors.  And I'll go one step further--your leadership and interpersonal skills will carry far more weight than anything you bring on your resume.  So, as suggested, work at being a good officer, competent in your trade, focused on your mission and caring of your troops, and the rest will come in due course.
Whatever interests the Commander should fascinate his subordinates.

Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2004, 05:42:45 »
Quote
Unfortunately, as of late there seems to have been some monumental lapses in understanding - specifically, long-term contracts class "B" contracts are being given out - all ending on March 31st - without the realisation that any contract under 180 days automatically deprives the reservist of dental, medical and other benefits.
It's not being done maliciously - it's simply happening because somebody is asleep at the switch

Doesn't your HQ issue three year contracts? (Or does it depend on the position?) We enforce a selection board process for hiring here in the HQ (and review/approve all the unit hires) but we do try to provide some stability where we can.

Quote
Contrast to even 10 years ago, and certainly 20 years ago, when Res F pers were widely treated with an attitude ranging from mild disdain to outright contempt by their Reg F counterparts.  I think the change has to do with the fact that the Res F today is far more professional that it once was; frankly, large parts of the Res F used to be a social club and little more (main effort--the Mess).  That isn't, in my experience, anyway, anywhere near as true today (aberrations remain, but they'll soon be extinguished, one hopes).  The Res F has become far more professional; we have lots of Res F soldiers with multiple op tours, the ind standards are generally higher, and we make much more of an effort at measuring collective performance and communicating lessons

Hi dglad. My opinion exactly: the Army Reserve I see today, while it still struggles with some systemic problems, is not even on the same planet as the Militia I joined in 1974. We are miles ahead. BTW-go and take a look at the thread:

 http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,21474.0.html .

Very interesting.Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline bossi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2004, 07:15:22 »
Before I defile this thread with my whining, I'd just like to agree that the issue of mutual respect between our Reg Force and Militia is a far cry from the mutual disrespect we once saw and suffered.
I've seen the change, plus I'd be the first one to agree that "the great equaliser" is that both soldiers and officers will respect somebody if they deserve to be respected - for me, this has been most apparent during operations (perhaps because of the accelerated tempo, whereby one can earn respect more quickly ... as opposed to the agony of being in garrison ... aaaarrrggghhhh ... ?)

Doesn't your HQ issue three year contracts? (Or does it depend on the position?) We enforce a selection board process for hiring here in the HQ (and review/approve all the unit hires) but we do try to provide some stability where we can.

Ah, there you go again ... demonstrating:
a.  your mastery of the reserve system; and
b.  that you give a hoot.
(chuckle)

Ya know, it's a funny thing ... somewhere along the line, the benefit of stability seems to have fallen by the wayside (as well as the concept of periodic, transparent review via the "re-selection board").
Contracts seem to be offered until the end of the fiscal year, "with the possibility of extension".
Of course, AND YES I'M GRIPING AGAIN, certain callouts are renewed automatically after ONLY the initial competition (whereas I'm led to believe that in certain other locations they are re-competed every three years, which simulates somewhat the Reg Force posting cycle, allows for "fresh blood", and gives everybody a fair chance ... oh, silly me - what was I thinking when I added "fair chance" ... ?  Yes, I'm bitter - I was forced to compete for my posn five times, and last time the bar was lowered and the prerequisite of MCSC was removed ... and gee, didn't I lose to somebody who didn't have MCSC ... "Welcome home from Afghanistan, you've lost your job.  That'll teach you to volunteer.  Have a nice life.")
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Offline pbi

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Re: Reserve NCM to Reg Officer-Respect
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2004, 07:34:57 »
bossi: We work it as follows:

-All contracts in the Bde are reviewed/approved by the DComd. We do not release Class B money without that sign off. We have a policy that all contracts must be advertised, then applicants boarded. Now, I honestly can't say how much of a selection board every one of our 13 units can generate, but certainly in the HQ we advertise at least Bde-wide and usually more widely. We compose a selection board of at least three, incl a WO/NCM if appropriate. We interview each applicant separately, then we rank the applicants. We make a recommendation to the DComd, who signs off on it if he agrees. We are not bound to hire out of the first group-we can keep looking if we want. The questions are designed not to guarantee that the incumbent gets it every time. The only exception here is that in some situations we can offer 90 days to get an applicant started if we have a pressing need, but that applicant is told that if there are other applicants there will be a board and they will not be guaranteed a "permanent" hire.

-All Class B's must compete for their own positions at the expiry of their contract-there are no automatic rollovers;

-we strongly encourage (although we cannot force..) our Bde HQ Class B pers to parade and train with their units as much as possible. This keeps them current as soldiers and also helps the unit out. Unit Class B are required to parade as the CO directs.

Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...