Author Topic: More "Army" in Army Cadets (combat training, etc.)  (Read 77025 times)

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corporal-cam

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2004, 20:25:00 »
Combat training is not a good idea for Cadets. You are probally 15 or over like I am but do you want to teach 12 year olds how to fight? -.^ Doesn‘t sound like a great idea. I think what the army cadets lack are exs that have more to do with the forces and less to do with adventure. If I want to rock climb I can join a rock climbing group but If I want to know SAR techniques, shelter building and self decipline I don‘t know a group that does more of that than Air Cadets and the RCAC should do more similar stuff. But on the other hand Air Cadets should get to fire c7s and go parachuteing , I would love to do both but aparently jumping out of airplanes only makes sence for Amry Cadets and not the guys flying  ;)

Offline cheeky_monkey

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2004, 21:41:00 »
Giving a 12-14 yo Combat Training would not be a good idea. Not sure many folks would like RCAC training future Washington snipers. But military experience would be nice.  
Quote
whether cadets could be seen by the public even holding a C7.
A couple years back 2PPCLI set up some tables, equipment,etc.  for Canada Day. They had C7s C8s,and M72s etc.  :D   obviouly with no rounds in the magizine. They also had a C3 set up and were letting people look through and aim the sights. I‘m sure I saw a Scout group.....
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Offline wongskc

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2004, 22:34:00 »
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Originally posted by corporal-cam:
[qb]But on the other hand Air Cadets should get to fire c7s and go parachuteing , I would love to do both but aparently jumping out of airplanes only makes sence for Amry Cadets and not the guys flying   ;)  [/qb]
I heard that a long time ago (even before they got rid of the Cadet MP course) that Air Cadets actually had their own parachute course running out of Edmonton.  It was canceled due to a couple incidents involving cadet pancakes.
We have such a hard time trying to answer the question: What is a Canadian? The Dutch have no such trouble. To them, a Canadian is someone from a far-off land who risked everything to liberate them from one of the worst kinds of oppression the world has ever seen.

Offline BeadWindow(Banned)

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2004, 23:09:00 »
Give em combat training...and live rounds.....tell them only half get to go home...and do it every weekend.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2004, 01:29:00 »
Canada is a signatory to an agreement not to field "children soldiers", and combat training for cadets would put Canada in violation of international agreements it has signed.  End of story.
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Offline XHighlander

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2004, 03:52:00 »
The cadet system now is not the system that i went though in the late 70‘s & early 80‘s.......... now it‘s just a joke some place to dump troubled teens off from the group home to give the staff a break.

I have gone out as a cadet with the Mother regiment on ex‘s back in the early 80‘s & used the FN and I'm not a drug dealer, or a car thief.

The tiny minded people who sit back and write off the youth of this country make me sick......... it‘s time to train our children with discipline and not computer‘s and video games... parents have to take responsibility for their children.

Stop making excuses. Society is not at fault, parents are!

Cadets should be trained as micro soldiers by real soldiers not civvies in uniform.

A real CWO & Sgt's, M/Cpl's, trained me. Not the Mickey Mouse system in place now.

Let them do the training they might just like it and join the forces afterwards

I will sign any petition that will put the word ARMY back into ARMY CADETS...

As for the UN saying â Å“putting children in combat situationsâ ?, as far as i am Concerned this is not a combat situation it is simply training them to become someone who is going to contribute something to society.

THE END!!!!!!  :cdn:

Offline xFusilier

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2004, 04:45:00 »
Gee, what about all the other contributing members of society who never touched an FN as an adolescent.  Bit of a straw man there me thinks.

As our resident SME Itchyscratchywoolenkit has stated the concept of "combat training" for Cadets is a red herring.  Does anyone really think that the ensuing Globe and Mail or Toronto Star story on how the CF was training 13 year olds to kill (and make no mistake that is exactly how it will be portrayed in the press) would help the Cadet Movement or the CF en masse.  Doubtful...

cdhoult

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2004, 11:28:00 »
Cadets are not meant to be little soldiers. At all. You‘re right, it‘s not the same organization that you were in, and in the 70‘s/80‘s, it wasn‘t the same organization as in the ‘50‘s. It changes over time. It is now a Youth Organization.

I‘m still waiting for the benefits of training a 13 year old to kill...so far we know they‘re probably not psychologically ready for it, and that it would be horrible press for the CF, and even if they were trained, it‘s not like they could get out of any CF training anyway, so they‘d have to redo it later on; that‘s usually a bad thing.

The reason I say that is because of Navy League Cadets (10-13 year olds, NOT part of the CCM). What used to happen, and still does to an extent, is that you‘d get cadets who were trained in Navy League to do Phase I (and sometimes II) training in the Sea Cadet Program. When they ‘aged out‘ of NL, they‘d come to Sea Cadets, already know everything, and them some units didn‘t have a plan already in place to deal with them, sot hey‘d go to another element to learn something new. If we‘re essentially going to teach a kid BMQ over the course of 7 years, why should he have to do it again?

Having been part of quite a few units due to my travel, I can say that for the most part, the cadets are usually of fairly high caliber. Have I run into the occassionally cadet who probably does drugs, etc, on the side? Yup. You‘ll get soldiers like that too, so clearly it isn‘t being combat trained that makes them valuable contributing members. I meet a lot of cadets who want to eventually join the CF, some ‘just for something to do‘ (and do it well), some to learn, and yes, the occassional one whose parents told them to be there. The latter actually aren‘t that bad to deal with, you just have to help them find motivation.

There are quite a few ex-cadets who go on to the forces, in different elements, different trades, etc. The purpose of cadets is to STIMULATE an interest in the CF; and it does. The army side is lucky, because a lot of affiliated units will bring cadets with them on exercises, the sea/air side, this doesn‘t happen nearly as often (actually, I‘ve never heard of it, but I‘m sure it happens), and they do just find for bringing people into the forces.

Maybe it won‘t be Reg Force...maybe it‘ll be PRes, or the CIC, either way, they‘re branches of the forces, so if an ex-cadet enrolls in the CIC, their interest was stimulated. Without learning to kill someone.

CH

Offline XHighlander

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2004, 11:42:00 »
They don‘t need the CF to "train them to kill" Sony, x-box & Nintendo are doing just fine.... as well most other video & computer games.

I am saying that with the proper training they will have respect for weapon's handling as i do.

Offline Sierra Kilo

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2004, 14:07:00 »
Has anybody seen the movie Taps? (**** I‘ve seen a lot of movies  :blotto: )  There‘s a good reason why cadets should not receive military combat training.  Its too early in their life, they don‘t need to know things like weapons drills etc (not ‘drill‘ drill, combat drills).  
The reason we train soldiers in this manner is because they may be called upon to utilize these skills in a combat situation.  Cadets are unlikely to be employed in such,

just some thoughts.

D-n-A

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2004, 14:11:00 »
ahh.. TAPS, the move about Military Cadets who take over their school, an try to take on the Military, haha

Offline kurokaze

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2004, 14:24:00 »
I‘m all for cadets receiving "military" training... if that training includes discipline and PT.

From the cadets I‘ve seen (air and army) these were the two biggest issues.  I wouldn‘t even think about giving these kids a C7 when they can‘t even be trusted to stand still while at attention.

Whats worst is that the senior cadets (and the CIC officer with them) didn‘t do anything about it!

Before you people talk about combat training, patrols, fieldcraft, etc.  the discipline issue has to be fixed first.  If not, your robbing these kids of one of best things the cadet program has to offer.

Offline XHighlander

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2004, 14:32:00 »
Quote
Before you people talk about combat training, patrols, fieldcraft, etc. the discipline issue has to be fixed first. If not, your robbing these kids of one of best things the cadet program has to offer.  
here here...........

they need instructors that have military training

Reg Force or Militia.... not CIC

Offline McBear

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2004, 15:54:00 »
Well, it‘s still a problem. How are we going to find the people not only willing to train?, but also people to train them? The CF already has problems with manpower, but if that was no longer an obstacle for us we would be faced by the CF‘s recruiting & retention problems.
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cdhoult

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2004, 16:09:00 »
CIC Officers are members of the CF, even if you don‘t beleive the training reflects that (and I‘d be inclined to agree in some cases).

That being said, some of the top cadet units the country are made of CIC Officers with no other military training -- they‘re just good at what they do.

The standard that a region is at, as well as how closely rules are followed at cadet units, heck, even the training at a National level are all reg force postings.

The ACO is a Reg Force Capt, RCO is a LCol, and the ACA‘s range in rank, usually a Sgt or WO though. At the national level, the respective DCdt(3 I think...) are LCol. If there is a problem with CIC training, then why aren‘t these reg force people doing anything about it? They‘re in a position to make changes. The fact is, many people who end up getting posted to these positions have a hard time understanding the program, and have to adjust to the program, and learn all about it. It isn‘t overly complicated, but you can‘t learn the whole program in a day. And if you think you can, well, I encourage you to apply for a posting at one of the RCSU‘s. Go nuts, and tell the staff what‘s what.

The top Sea Unit in BC (who usually wins drill, very close in band, dominates sports weekends, and is the largest in the province) is run by a woman from Saskatchewan with no military backgrounf except for the CIC....her staff, if I remember correctly:

XO -- Was the first Coxswain of the corps, 25 years ago...fully CIC Trained
TrgO -- Was the Quadra Chief, fully CIC Trained
SupO -- Ex-Coxswain of the corps, fully CIC Trained
BandO -- Ex-Coxswain, fully CIC Trained
StandardsO -- I think was a CPO2...fully CIC trained

The have 1 reg force LS Engineer who runs a diving program for them, and a reg force Lt(N) who set up a database for them. They aren‘t intimedtly involved with the training at all.

I seem to hear more about this ‘lack of discipline‘ on the Army side, and everyones solution to to bring in the reg force or ‘military‘ officers. If Sea Units and Air Units can do it without ‘proper‘ military officers, why does the army have such a hard time?

My reasoning is that the army is so hard to standardize, because of affiliated unit traditions, or militia/reg force people trying to turn Sgt‘s and WO‘s into reg force Sgt/WO‘s, which many of them don‘t have the maturity for, or if they do, they don‘t have the experience. Cadets don‘t learn to respect Orders, because their officers and volunteers don‘t respect the CATO. I know we have a volunteer at my unit who is Reg Force, and his line was, "Oh, the CATO are just guidelines, we don‘t have to follow them" yeah...swell example. The Orders, issued by DCdt‘s, aren‘t REALLY orders, just pretend orders...and this is the example I‘m supposed to follow? No thanks.

Reg Force members can volunteer with a corps, and most corps officers are willing to accept a volunteer, especially if they have some valuable experience that will benefit the youth.

As to the comment that the senior cadets/officers aren‘t doing anything about that cadet moving, sometimes it‘ll depend on the situation at hand. Does the cadet have a problem? Is the officer evaluating the senior cadets to see if they do anything about it? Remember, a Cadet WO does not have the same experience as a Reg Force WO, so you‘re comparing apples and oranges.

I‘ll re=phrase the "Youth Organization" remark, perhaps to say that the definition of it has changed, and what cadets do has changed; I don‘t really see how it‘s for the worse. Like any program, it has it‘s faults.

Offline Dano

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2004, 16:11:00 »
Manpower is not an issue at all for this type of thing. Its allocating what manpower they have now.
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cdhoult

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2004, 16:53:00 »
Thank-you, Intelligere  :)  I‘d be interested to hear the outcomes as well...

Daniel,

It is a manpower issue though...we have a specific MOC to work with cadets...it‘s hard to justify posting someone to JUST work with a cadet corps, what officers would we take? They aren‘t trained to work with youth, and I‘ve heard of officers and NCM‘s leaving the forces for getting posted to NDHQ and RCSU....if someone joins the Reg Force, it probably isn‘t to work with 12 year olds...

CH

Sgt O`Hara

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2004, 13:51:00 »
This is O‘Hara I am the person who started this topic because i and hundreds of other cadets would like to see the Army Cadets shooting a weapon like the FN rifle or other 303calibre weapons and also do some sort of patroling with like a combat scenario sort of thing  so please reply with a YES or a NO
Thank you very much!

Offline BeadWindow(Banned)

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2004, 13:59:00 »
NO. Join a shooting club if you want to shoot.
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Offline kurokaze

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2004, 14:03:00 »
No.

D-n-A

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2004, 14:13:00 »
No


O‘Hara, apparently you failed to read all the threads pointing why Cadets shouldent do combat training, an how it is illegal

you guys arent the HitlerJugend, you dont need combat training

Offline Eowyn

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2004, 14:57:00 »
O‘Hara
If you are interested in a yes/no question instead of an interesting discussion, why don‘t you set up a poll instead.
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Offline BeadWindow(Banned)

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2004, 16:05:00 »
Yeah heres some "military training"-

Have them fill out a next of kin form over and over again. Thats real "military training".
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Offline Sierra Kilo

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2004, 16:19:00 »
exciting military tasks for cadets (see above)?  Sure, why not.

Shooting weapons?  No.  The FN C1 doesn‘t exactly fire a small calibre, and its not .303 .  Not exactly target shooting rifle calibers either...

Offline WillyMethod

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Re: Thoughts about Combat training in the cadet program!
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2004, 16:23:00 »
The FN has put many a Bruise and Blemish on Grown Man

What exactly Will that Do to A Pre-Teen/ Teen  Cadet?
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