Author Topic: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units  (Read 57687 times)

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Offline oak7

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Re: Reserves As A Para
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2003, 08:25:00 »
Ok, i never said anything about them being paratroopers, simply that they could take the course and get there wings.   I was just throwing out another option for the initial question of being reserves and having wings.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2005, 02:26:24 by m_a_r_c »

Offline Aquilus

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Re: Reserves As A Para
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2003, 03:20:00 »
BTW, how does one become a paratrooper? Do you simply get your wings and wait untill they need paratroopers and you get an offer or a recommendation from a CO?  :confused:

Offline ABN RFN

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Re: Reserves As A Para
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2004, 13:23:30 »
I know this thread is ancient, however if you are still interested in knowing;
A Jump qualified soldier becomes a paratrooper by serving in a parachute company. With the para coy they will go through some variation of a Para Indoc including Airborne role specific training ( there is currently some variation to these credentials between the Vandoo, RCR, PPCLI and QOR Para companies ) after which they are usually awarded silver wings ( commonly referred to as white wings ) then after serving in a hard para role for 1 year they keep their "white wings" for their career. Any soldier who has completed their BPara is referred to as a Military Parachutist. Those performing the role in a Para Coy are Paratroopers.
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Offline pbi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2004, 01:26:30 »
We need PPCLI Guy here: he recently did G3 LFCA and could say exactly what tasking the QOR have or do not officially have with respect to sp for CPC. When I was A/G3-G3Ops of LFCA (1998-2000) the QOR were not tasked to provide a para coy, although the unit was keeping the idea alive as a morale/retention issue. What they were tasked to do was (through 32 CBG) generate Res para-qual pers to aug CPC as required. This was not at all the same thing as having a para coy role. Cheers.
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Offline HollywoodHitman

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2004, 01:43:32 »
The Westies had a jump platoon until the early 90's. The residual was a TOW platoon and AA capability. Both were successful endeavours but it's safe to say there were many good, experienced guys who moved on as a result.......

The idea of Res. Jump Pl. is not one that should be looked upon lightly. The money involved in training and maintaining troops' skills on LAV's and whatnot, as well as their proper employment on the battlefield would be too high. Airborne is a means of insertion and once on the ground the Airborne soldier fulfills the role of light infanteer. If the military were to provide their light infantry reserve units with more slots in jump courses, the Reg units could draw upon the reserve units to augment and support their jump companies in case they were needed. Helo's are in greater supply than Hercs and I believe CPC doesn't always use the Hercs or Griffons on their courses 9could be wrong on that one) so the idea that there are not enough resources to keep troops jump qualified isn't really the case.......Round trip ticked on West Jet from Vancouver to Edmonton is about 250$........Anyway.......

Generally speaking, Airborne troops by nature are highly motivated, fit and would be considered reasonably competent or better in their primary infantry skills before being allowed to serve in that capacity. The reserve troops who would participate in this type of organization would also demonstrate the same kinds of attributes, physically and skill related as their counterparts in the Regs. It's worked well in the past, who's to say it couldn't now?

Everyone knows what kind of motivation is often provided by giving the young troops something to work for.........

My 2 cents. :salute: :cdn:

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Offline pbi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2004, 06:14:58 »
Further to my last, I remember the QOR "Jump Coy" fairly well: I knew some of its original members: I believe one of them later went on to the Skyhawks. Although they struggled wth the same obstacles that all Army Res face, my recollection is they could field about a platoon of dependables, and had very high morale. They were good, at least in part, because the people who would join an org like that would be more fit and more highly motivated than the average soldier.

If we are going to have a RegF para capability, then IMHO we need to be able to augment/repl that with good quality Res soldiers. The problem we face is the ancient enemy of the voluntary Res: time. Cheers.
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Offline Razic

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2004, 13:12:09 »
I think if you guys saw the QOR jump company in action you would support us having the tasking.

Offline bossi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2004, 13:36:00 »
Two cents, two points:

1.  From a logistical standpoint, the Hast & PER are closer to CPC so I'd give them the nod vis-a-vis the task of augmenting CPC.

2.a.  Once upon a time the jump course was more readily available - in essence it was an incentive, and nominees were considered to be the "top soldiers" from any given unit.  I'd prefer to "spread the wealth", as opposed to restricting it to only one unit. 

2.b.  Another consideration to the problems associated with having all one's eggs in one basket is that of augmentation to operations - there are still many reservists who are either unavailable or unwilling to volunteer for operations.  As such, if the parachute capability is limited to only one unit, the statistical probability increases that parachute training would be wasted on somebody who will never deploy (and, last time I checked, the Army was trying to not waste money ...).  Conversely, by distributing jump course vacancies more widely, better selection criteria would ensure ouir money is well spent on training the right soldiers.  The reason I mention this is because last year the Ontario unit that deployed the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.
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Offline pbi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2004, 06:53:06 »
So bossi was I right in my recollection: there actually is no "Jump Coy" task, but rather a task to provide indiv aug to CPC? Cheers.
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The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline bossi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2004, 09:45:14 »
So bossi was I right in my recollection: there actually is no "Jump Coy" task, but rather a task to provide indiv aug to CPC?

If I were to provdie my OPINION in public, you'd be able to hear the anguished screams all the way over there ...

As an unofficial, off-the-record compromise, can you say "mission creep" ... ?
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
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Offline Blindspot

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2004, 19:17:14 »


If I were to provdie my OPINION in public, you'd be able to hear the anguished screams all the way over there ...


To quote a MCpl who was trying to give a lecture at the same time as a pipes and drum practice, "SHUT THE F* UP!"   ;) :D

More seriously, I believe the removal of the Jump company from the QOR would be tantamount to castration. It's ingrained into the culture of the regiment and a source of pride for its members.

I understand also the fiscal and strategic reasons others might advocate stripping the QOR of it's Jump company as the political trend toward the military is to slash rather than augment or add capability. Why not go further? Why not amalgamate all of the Toronto infantry regiments into one super infantry reserve regiment. Ensure that an airborne tasked company was part of this regiment. This would also make perfect fiscal and strategic sense. Somehow though, I don't think any of the regiments would agree to this by the very nature of their individual regimental cultures.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe a member of the QOR would be any more willing to loose his maroon beret than a member of the 48th or Tor Scot would be willing to loose his kilt.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 21:31:12 by Blindspot »
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Offline HollywoodHitman

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2004, 19:23:21 »
For a short while when the Jump Platoon (it was an actual unit tasking) was shut down, there were thoughts that the unit would crumble. Some things changed, soldiers came and went and the Regiment lived. A tough pill to swallow, but hopefully common sense will prevail and jump courses will be offered to units and deserving soldiers Canada wide.

Boggles my mind that jump courses are given to troops (no offence to those who work in the rear) who will never, ever use the skill, as a means of retention and motivation. Whynot motivate the young infanteers by giving them a chance to earn their wings?

Everyone has their place in the modern military, and it's no secret that the support trades are what makes the combat arms function at an admin level, but you won't see me getting a course thats out of my MOC just to motivate me or keep me in. The counter terrorist driving course would be fun.........
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Offline pbi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2004, 21:15:44 »
Maybe I'm being misunderstood here. I have not, anywhere, advocated the removal of the para role from the QOR. In fact, what I said was:

Quote
If we are going to have a RegF para capability, then IMHO we need to be able to augment/repl that with good quality Res soldiers. The problem we face is the ancient enemy of the voluntary Res: time.

I also said:

Quote
Although they struggled wth the same obstacles that all Army Res face, my recollection is they could field about a platoon of dependables, and had very high morale. They were good, at least in part, because the people who would join an org like that would be more fit and more highly motivated than the average soldier.

My point is that neither 32 CBG nor the QOR really have a "Para Coy Tasking". There is no such thing anymore. What they have (I suspect...unless things have changed...) is a tasking to generate indiv qual parachutists to augment CPC. Now, how the unit goes about doing this is really between the CO and the Bde Comd. If the QOR choose to group their augmentees into a single coy and do Para-related trg, fine. The concern in my mind is what is the trade off: is the unit meeting its BTS requirements, for example? Cheers.
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2004, 22:06:26 »
Two cents, two points:

1. From a logistical standpoint, the Hast & PER are closer to CPC so I'd give them the nod vis-a-vis the task of augmenting CPC.

2.a. Once upon a time the jump course was more readily available - in essence it was an incentive, and nominees were considered to be the "top soldiers" from any given unit. I'd prefer to "spread the wealth", as opposed to restricting it to only one unit.

2.b. Another consideration to the problems associated with having all one's eggs in one basket is that of augmentation to operations - there are still many reservists who are either unavailable or unwilling to volunteer for operations. As such, if the parachute capability is limited to only one unit, the statistical probability increases that parachute training would be wasted on somebody who will never deploy (and, last time I checked, the Army was trying to not waste money ...). Conversely, by distributing jump course vacancies more widely, better selection criteria would ensure ouir money is well spent on training the right soldiers. The reason I mention this is because last year the Ontario unit that deployed the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.

You should just see the 48th these days, every other guy sports a pair of wings, frig, 15 years and I could not get on a course
" 'cuz it (Jumping) belongs to the QOR and we have courses that you can take that is beneficial to the regiment"

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Offline chrisp1j

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2004, 01:12:38 »
Some good points have been made about the Coy here. I'm not exactly sure of the stutus of the jump coy either. What I am sure of, is that we have the task of, and are capable of, supporting the CPC. For the most part, here's how:

We have the jumpmasters, and all of the equipment neccessary to keep soldiers current, because the CPC has no time for that.

We fill the chutes that keep the pilots current and our JMs often dispatch the soldiers from the aicraft (to keep the pilots and who ever needs to be current, current).

The reason we are capable of doing all of this, is because we have multiple paratroopers showing up for training, at the same time and same place. Can you imagine trying to have multiple   units trying to each keep men current? or having to clump together on different nights to get current?. The communications and logistics would be nightmarish, and wouldn't work. Thats why we have so many positions.  
« Last Edit: November 12, 2004, 00:18:49 by chrisp1j »
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Offline Mr. Ted

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2004, 21:58:42 »
Well now a few of you have me curious.

It was suggested a few times in above posts that no one would doubt the veracity of the QOR having a jump status if we  saw them in action.

So let me ask the question for those of you who can actually attest to this:  Once on the ground, are the QOR jump cadre members more motivated, more agressive, more professional?

Because it's my understanding that to serve in the QOR's jump unit/cader/pltn/coy one still needs to complete a version of the AIC or Para Indoc or whatever the beast be named these days.  Does the basic para course and the para indoc course and the esprit of the maroon beret lead to a better infanteer once on the ground?

Mr. Ted

P.S.  I remember when I was a highlander being envious of the QOR jump smocks/maroon beret combo.  It was so...so....4 PARA in a dashing English way.  Does a CADPAT jump smock exists?  Jump boots?
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Offline ABN RFN

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2004, 03:08:22 »
In my opinion, YES. The QOR Para Coy does indeed host the fittest, most competent and highly motivated soldiers in the Regiment, and the standard expected of them as jumpers is set very high. At the very least in the minds of the soldiers, the Maroon beret represents infinitely more than a unique delivery-related tasking. Fitter, Faster, Smarter, Keener. That being said, there little or no friction/bravado between the Jumpers and non-para qualified Riflemen in the QOR, both work together almost seamlessly. After all, every Jumper was a LEG once... ;D There are plenty of keen Infantry that don't have wings yet. QOR do have a version of the AIC/Para Indoc. and receiving your silver ( white ) wings is dependant upon your successful completion of that training. There is no CadPat smock and creating one probably hasn't been seriously considered outside the walls of our Mess. There are no "jump boots" either, although many jumpers have their combat boots resoled a la' Vibram wedge sole, wear Magnums or other more comfortable boots in the field with little hassle from the Sergeant Major.
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Offline Mr. Ted

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2004, 13:18:28 »
Thanks for the info.  Interesting to know.

It sounds like you are an active member.  What is the AIC or Para Indo like in the QOR?  Run independantly by the unit?  Up at Pet?  I'm assuming it's about a week of high-speed low drag infantry stuff.  Curious if anyone knows what the course is actually composed of.

The reason I ask is I had the opportunity to both peruse a couple copies of the Jab online as well as a quick visit to the Moss Park armouries a few years ago after leaving my unit.  The dress of the day was BDUs with the airborne maroon shirt underneath.  4PARA posters on the walls, jump towers, the whole bit.  Was quite seductive, fi the truth be told.

I guess the impetus for my original question was to determine to what extent the QOR's status creates a "better" militiaman.  And if so, how quantifiable is it?  Not just the jumpers being better than the LEGs in the unit - but the jump cadre being better than most militia infantry units.  Again, not sure how quantifiable this is.

On another note,(and a fantasy one at that) -  would love to see a Canadian Parachute Regiment formed with a reserve component - 4RCR becoming 4PARA in the British idiom.  And for completely selfish reasons - I live in London!

Mr. Ted
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Offline ABN RFN

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2004, 18:47:25 »
The QOR version of the Para Indoc is run by the unit, we have our own JM's, DZ/LZ controllers, RM's, Unarmed combat instructors and the only reserve Pathfinder and Parachute Instructor in the CF. We are also regularily assisted by 3RCR para coy. It is usually run annually ( although parts of it are repeated throughout the training year when oppportunity allows ). This year it is being run at Pet I believe... It consists of;

- all ELOC/MLOC/TOET soldier skills qualifications
- para unarmed combat
- basic demolitions
- rigging of standard and non-standard loads (i.e. MG's. mortars. radios ) for jumping
- EPL ( expected performance Level -Para PT testing & BFT )
- Airborne operations ( theory )
- Para history
- Para first-aid
- Comms refresher
- basic jump attendance
- Para skills refresher
- DZ drills
- swim test

The only time the maroon shirts come out around Moss Park these days are during PT( which is every week ) and o civvie dress. The Airborne memorabilia and towers / landing swings are still there. In terms of "quantifiable proof that the Airborne standards produce superior Primary Reservists? I will have to be real honest here, at my rank I am not privy to such stats,  and way too biased a soldier in my current position to give you an empirical, accurate assessment of that. My opinion would be purely based on my limited personal experience. ( <---- read YES, of course it does! ) There are individual Reserve infantrymen that wear a green beret, balmoral or whatever that are better soldiers than some individuals that wear a maroon beret, the status does not make them supermen by any means. The standards they are held to as a unit, however, does in my opinion produce a keener group of soldiers and ( given their competitive nature )  I think you will  find they will relish any opportunity to prove it. 
4Para eeeh? How about 4CDO??   Sounds interesting  .... to sleep, perchance to dream.
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Offline Mr. Ted

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2004, 20:45:21 »
Excellent post!  Thank you for your well-written intelligent reply.

Man, I've been wondering about that Para Indoc for quite some time.  I appreciate the info.

I remember reading in the Jab that the basic mil para course makes a parachutist - but not a military paratrooper.  The para fitness test plus para indoc do that.  An important distinction.

Enjoy your unit, your maroon beret, your wings and your ability to jump out of perfectly good ariplanes on a regular basis.  You'll look back on that for the rest of your life as something you did that very, very few others have done.

Cheers,

Mr. Ted

P.S.  I will continue to dream of one day re-upping with a comission to serve as a platoon commander within a reserve para entity - a fantasy I know.  Especially in today's political climate.  But it keeps me from going nuts with this meaningless job I currently have (that makes me a lot of money! - right now it's Ducati SuperSports and Audi A4 quattros) but otherwise leaves a guy unfulfilled.  Pharma sales are lucrative but ultimately unsatisfying.  A happy life is one led while paying attention to inner desires and passions.  So it's financial consolidation time right now, but my early semi-retirement plans include re-upping as an officer.  A dream, yes.  But I can't stop dreaming about it during every useless, boring, inconsiquential meeting while my eyes glaze over like a freshly baked Krispy-Kremes...
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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2004, 22:01:47 »
....   But I can't stop dreaming about it during every useless, boring, inconsiquential meeting while my eyes glaze over like a freshly baked Krispy-Kremes...

God why does that sound familiar?

I guess they were right when they say absence makes the heart grow fonder.
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Offline bossi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2004, 05:51:53 »
Sorry, I have to offer a dissenting view since it would be unethical for me to remain silent (as unpopular as it may seem).

I've run across more back-stabbers and ill-disciplined louts from the QOR than ANY other unit, ever.
Unfortunately, it seems that the "independent" characteristic of parachute troops has been taken to an extreme - one individual stated in a public forum that his motto was " F buddy before buddy F's you".

Another drunken fraud pretended that his lack of attention to detail and inability to properly plan ahead were his way of injecting "value-added fog of war" into training (e.g. he'd regularly have a "brilliant idea" Friday night getting onto the bus, as opposed to any of the planning meetings held weeks beforehand ...), while on more than one occasion I personally witnessed his excessing drinking cause him to be late for duty the next day (and then he'd laugh it off).

Without exception, the worst examples I've personally seen from the QOR have been those who worshipped the maroon beret.
I could go on, and on, and on, but better not - suffice it to say that I feel very strongly that the perceived "jump task" has not resulted in a better unit.

I'd also point to some statistical evidence that can not be refuted - there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR.  From this I deduce that the para role has not helped the QOR become a "better" unit.

Finally, I'd also point out that I've worked alongside many other maroon berets (Canadian, US, British, and other countries) who have been excellent soldiers - some of the best I've ever met - and I include the Canadian Airborne Regiment - in comparison to them, the QOR's I'm talking about are an embarassment - thus, I'd like to underscore my comments by assuring you I have the utmost respect for real parachute troops.
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-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
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Offline Blindspot

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2004, 10:03:25 »
I've run across more back-stabbers and ill-disciplined louts from the QOR than ANY other unit, ever.

Sounds like a quote from one of those disgrunted, pompous officers who are always out to disaffect Major Sharpe.

Unfortunately, it seems that the "independent" characteristic of parachute troops has been taken to an extreme - one individual stated in a public forum that his motto was " F buddy before buddy F's you".

Another drunken fraud pretended that his lack of attention to detail and inability to properly plan ahead were his way of injecting "value-added fog of war" into training (e.g. he'd regularly have a "brilliant idea" Friday night getting onto the bus, as opposed to any of the planning meetings held weeks beforehand ...), while on more than one occasion I personally witnessed his excessing drinking cause him to be late for duty the next day (and then he'd laugh it off).

I've had similar experiences with members of the Tor Scots. They don't have a jump company. Perhaps the extreme cases you mention are highlighted simply because they wear a maroon beret.

I'd also point to some statistical evidence that can not be refuted - there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR.   From this I deduce that the para role has not helped the QOR become a "better" unit.

What do you mean by "stronger" and "better track record"? What statistical evidence?

Finally, I'd also point out that I've worked alongside many other maroon berets (Canadian, US, British, and other countries) who have been excellent soldiers - some of the best I've ever met - and I include the Canadian Airborne Regiment - in comparison to them, the QOR's I'm talking about are an embarassment - thus, I'd like to underscore my comments by assuring you I have the utmost respect for real parachute troops.

I'm sure you will find your "embarassments" in those other units you mention as well.
Men are dirty, Mr. Sharpe. Rifles are clean!

Offline bossi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2004, 12:46:18 »
Sounds like a quote from one of those disgrunted, pompous officers who are always out to disaffect Major Sharpe.

Wow - you actually base your assessment of military competence on a TV program - that's awesome
(and I'm presuming you meant to type "disgruntled"?).   Pompous?   No.
Now, did your idle musing (perhaps a slur) refute any of my comments?  No.

I've had similar experiences with members of the Tor Scots. They don't have a jump company. Perhaps the extreme cases you mention are highlighted simply because they wear a maroon beret.

Hmmm ... let me think.   Is the topic of this thread "Tor Scots"?   No?   Then maybe the norms I've described pertain to those QORs I've encountered who wore a maroon beret ... since they're relevant to this thread.

What do you mean by "stronger" and "better track record"? What statistical evidence?

Perhaps "effective strength" wasn't described in Sharpe.
I don't recall the QOR winning the Kitching Trophy lately, or anything else for that matter.
And, the unit which sent the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.

I'm sure you will find your "embarassments" in those other units you mention as well.

Yup, but I was pointing out that the QOR have more than their fair share of blades.
As such, I was speculating whether there might be a causative link between their maroon berets and a perceived systemic abundance of substandard personnel.
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Offline ABN RFN

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2004, 18:30:50 »
Wow, what to say to all that. We obviously have two VERY different points of view on the matter.  I am sorry hear you seem to have been spoiled on a fine Regiment like the QOR, SIR.  :salute:   If possible, I would like very much to be privy to the "statistical evidence that can not be refuted" proving that "there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR". I have no interest in a pissing contest, quite on the contrary I have nothing to prove here ( even if I did, this would be the wrong thread to banter back and forth about who's daddy is tougher like children...or perhaps old men for that matter? ) . Actions speak louder than words and I have never been anything but proud of the performance I have been exposed to from the QOR. Nonetheless, those stats sound very interesting. Just to humour you, if you can't remember the QOR winning anything lately, either your memory is shot or you have just been minding your own unit, which you might consider doing now. Leave the questions about the QOR to the QOR instead of flooding this thread with your biased, jaded opinions based on extremely limited "alleged" experiences with select "anonymous" individuals. Sounds more like a personal problem to me, or perhaps a personality conflict that you're still upset about, rather than anything indicative proof of systemic problems with a whole company that produces "sub-standard troops". Get Real!  In addition, the QOR have won every inter-regimental competition to my recollection in the past 2 years, including the winter warfare race last year where the top finishing team was the Para Coy team, the other two QOR teams placed 3rd and 4th behind the 48th in 2nd place ( a fine and respectable regiment I might add ) . In the Queen's Cup this year the QOR beat the Qyrang in 5 out of 6 cometitions, BADLY. Perhaps we need to start inviting the TorScots?

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