Author Topic: All Things Combat Diver (merged)  (Read 146493 times)

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Offline Sapper6

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Combat Divers
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2004, 21:23:27 »
Combat Divers - Are they going to survive in the CF?

Anyone want to start a dialogue on the value of maintaining Combat Divers in the Canadian Army?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 10:13:12 by Spr.Earl »
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Offline 54/102 CEF

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2004, 22:05:23 »
I will ask my spies

In the meantime - swim around here www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC
You can visit me when I retire to the Island of Sayonara - but if the tide goes out - you go too - OK?

Offline 54/102 CEF

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2004, 22:08:53 »
Unofficial Diver site? Its the only one so lets be clear - its their only "official"   Un-Official Site   :D

If there are any divers out there - please pass the word - the site will get the deep six in January unless I hear from the powers that be
You can visit me when I retire to the Island of Sayonara - but if the tide goes out - you go too - OK?

eod/combatdiver

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2004, 10:06:54 »
It sounds Like I put Diver 409 threw his prelim and all things said are true. Someone said that they seen a reservist with a dive badge true however it was a ship's team diver badge and they couldn't had a combatdiver badge. Reservists can take a ship's divers course that is 6 weeks long on one of the coast but if they decide to become a combat diver in the reg force they have to take the underwater demolition phase and number of other tasks that are unique to combat diving.  The resson that reserve engineer units do not have dive section is because it takes a lot of man power to run a dive stores and a lot coordination to keep everyone current. When it comes to life support equipment you need people to be dedicated to the job and maintain that equipment. At 2CER we have a hard time doing that at time due to courses and operational commitment.

Bubbles Up!!!!

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2004, 10:13:37 »
I can't see us we out them,Why?
They do beach recce's,underwater demo,underwater construction.
So yes they will survive.
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




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Offline MCG

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2004, 23:16:01 »
I've heard pers from 3VP argue that the infantry should take the dive job from  engineers.  Generally, I think this is silly because the majority of dive tasks involve engineer work and those tasks that could be considered non-engineering are not outside the capabilities of a sapper.

Offline 2023

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2004, 17:04:46 »
Hmmmmmmmmmm can rentals do the dive course? LOL
"Even if you control the physical, you do not control the man. If you control his mind.........then you have him."

Offline Diver409

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2004, 18:58:20 »
I can't remember what year it was, '99 or '00, but a few infanteers came up to me on remembrance day and shook my hand for merely being a combat diver.  I was surprised to say the least but then one of them, while standing with his comrade, asked me why the engineers hog the dive course...I quickly asked him why the infanteers hog the sniper course.  He had to confir with his friend of this fact as he was clearly unaware this was the case.  The fact remains that anyone can take the 'ships team diver' course...it's only a matter of justification.  If the infantry want to create a team of divers so that they can transfer from river bank to river bank without being seen in a boat, or because the need to pop up beside a boat and take everyone out comes up alot...then they can have at it.  Chances are they will find out that there are more dangers in that capability than they have ever thought about.  We'll start with the natural dangers of diving physics and the pressures of diving on the human body...let alone all the gear you'd like to bring with you.  Then we'll move into the gas laws which not only need to be studied and understood, but they need to be adhered to strictly or or you will find nothing more than a team of infanteers in wet suits belly up on the surface with their lungs spilling out of their mouths...for example.  Then we can talk about the politics of why the combat divers seem incapable of convincing any policy makers of why they need the stealth capability of a re-breather system.  That some sentry walking along the waters edge minding his own business doesn't just look over and see the pleasant array of tiny bubbles streaming from our tanks, raise an alarm unheard by those beneath the water, toss a couple of grenades in or even just wait around for the divers to surface and have himself a party at our disadvantage.  It does take a well trained diver to be chosen for a task befitting such a scenario...but how well trained does one need to be to spot a buttload of bubbles and react to them?  Those who would argue 'why not the infantry' see the prestige of looking like a seal team, not the pain of wondering if that last blast of air bubbles comes from your team mates who may now be trapped under the over two tonne piece of floating bridge that broke free from it's shackles and slammed into the river bed.  How about the fact that you've seen team mates, after all the training they've gone through, now left without the ability to dive until they've undergone extensive medical treatments because of being ravaged by bacteria from the water they were sent into.  For all the pleasures of being a diver, there are a millions pains in diving...and we are still learning.
     The infantry only see the cool, not the cost.  The combat divers will survive because who else are you going to send when someone high in the chain of command loses his favorite watch over the side of a bridge...being built buy engineers.  You infantry wanna be a diver then come get some...but do some research and find out the whole story, not just the cool parts.

BUBBLES UP!
'When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl, when you can't even do that...you find someone to carry you.'

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2004, 02:26:45 »
As of a couple of years ago I believe we rentals can get the course if slot's are available.
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




UBIQUE
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Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2004, 03:06:37 »
Diver409,excellent post :salute:
Every one think's it's a swan,NO IT'S NOT!!
It's very hard work.

I was at Kootney Castle when 1 CER sent the Dive Section when the dived the Columbia River day and night.
I along with another were on their night swim down river,we were the shore side support and monitored comm.'s just in case.
They came ashore about 3 klick's up river from us and what they talked about was scary what they whent through in the river and this was just a night swim with no gear,just suit's.

Oh by the way the Dive patch is still on the Bay door in the Wack!!
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




UBIQUE
Be Safe

Offline 54/102 CEF

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2004, 10:11:52 »
Keep watching  www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC ---- the diver web site that explains all this is going to do another year blazing the Internet trails for the Canadian Army

PS: there is also a diver manual link right on the front page so why not do some pre-reading before that awkward moment when the ask - so - why do you want to be a diver? Hit them with some evidence you have rad up on it and have more than a warm fuzzy and you never know - you could be off on alife of adventure - or end up sticking shelves in the Canex -- its really up to you!   :)
You can visit me when I retire to the Island of Sayonara - but if the tide goes out - you go too - OK?

Offline 2023

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2004, 12:28:42 »
What do you think of that EOD/Combat Diver? Any rentals get the Dive Course in 2 CER lately?
"Even if you control the physical, you do not control the man. If you control his mind.........then you have him."

eod/combatdiver

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2004, 18:19:01 »
I have not seen any in the last 7yr that I have been with the team but maybe one slipped under the radar. Like I said before the only reseves that has a combatdiver badge is ex reg force divers. If you see a rental with a combatdiver badge and he/she was not in the regs before he/she has no respect of what needs to be earned.
mike

Offline 2023

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2004, 11:50:11 »
Chimo brother Beaver!!!!
"Even if you control the physical, you do not control the man. If you control his mind.........then you have him."

Offline Sapper6

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2004, 20:31:37 »
Good posts Diver409.   I've been a combat diver since 1991 and your comments are quite true, particularly when it comes to other trades wanting to take the combat diver course.   As you've stated, there is certainly more to being a combat diver than just surface (combat) swimming.   Just keeping 'current' with CABA/LWDSS/AGA is hard enough within the Regts, let alone an Inf Bn which has other competing tasks.   The diving equipment keeps getting more complicated as we get the resources to do our jobs in hostile conditions, the rig for MCW being an example.

Unfortunately, due to the fact that the Canadian Army no longer swims its vehicles, the operational requirement to maintain combat divers has not been exercised since the Winnipeg Floods in 1997 - and even then it was a push to call "inspecting the temporary dykes" an "operational dive".   I just don't think that under the current political climate, and with the Canadian Army's involvement in Afghanistan (very little water there - last time I checked) there will be an opportunity to use Combat Divers.   As an aside - it was only through the sheer will of a few Engineer Commanders and staff officers that a combat dive capability was established in BiH for Op PALLADIUM.   As far as I can tell, combat divers were only used once to help in recovering a LAV that fell into the water in Split.

Bottom line - like most capabilities in the Canadian Forces we exist as insurance for the "what if" scenario.   Can the CF risk the liability of not having a combat diver capability the next time it needs combat engineering tasks completed in or near in-land waterways?   We'll see.

Sapper6
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Offline Sapper6

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2004, 21:41:55 »
Forgot the significant contribution of combat divers on Op PERSEVERANCE (?) which was the support to Swiss Air Flt #111 crash off of Peggy's Cove.  Clearance Divers did all the deep stuff and the combat divers tended to the difficult recovery task along the shoreline.  Still - this was a domestic operation and although significant, wasn't war fighting type stuff.

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Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2004, 21:50:43 »
Agree with EOD/Combatdiver....and, will add that - giving a P Res soldier the qualification makes little sense as it will be highly unlikely they would be able to keep their skill set up to snuff.  Seems like a lot of money spent on trg with very little return.

Although, I heard something about 31 CER (The Elgins) when John Hampson was the DCO, that he managed to get some CABA gear...anyone know if that was true?  Is the unit still diving today?

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Offline MCG

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2004, 02:05:20 »
Hampson did run a 31 CER dive prelim with an RSS Cpl (now a Sgt at CFSME).  One reservist was course loaded for Cbt Diver and popped his shoulder out a week before the course.  That is the closest I've ever heard of a reservist comming to getting the course.  I believe the unit was still getting "re-roll money" for training at that time, so the cost of sending a guy on that course would have been much less of an impact on the unit than it would today.   

I don't know if the unit actually ever did any diving . . . but apparently Hampson is back so even if it was not done before . . .

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2004, 03:08:18 »
What do you think of that EOD/Combat Diver? Any rentals get the Dive Course in 2 CER lately?
Diver yes,EOD courses are a impossibility right now as certain EOD courses Rentals can't get.
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




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eod/combatdiver

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2004, 17:12:02 »
Combat Diver courses and some EOD courses are not part of the role of some reserve units. Hell the CER's have a hard time keeping up with all of the BTS's and we have a larger support net then 31 CER may have. Its not that the reg force wants to keep these things from the reserve units it all comes down to safety.  Especially when you are dealing with life support equipment. To date the combat divers have not had a singal death due to equipment or troops not being qualified unlike the navy's record.  That's not the clearance divers they are very professional about what they do. They run into trouble with ships divers and port inspection divers.  EOD work is the same not a single Canadian  EOD operator has died doing an EOD problem we have lost EOD operators due to mine strikes but not to operators error.  That is why I think one of the many reasons that certain course are not offered to the reserve units What reserve CO has enough confidence in his NCO's and troops to sign off on paper saying that his troops are operationally ready to take on the combat diving role. One death everyone is going up on the mat ultimately the CO is responsible even if he is not qualified.

Bubbles up!!!

Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2004, 09:32:23 »
Diver 409,

The answer is "length of his arm plus the length of his dive knife!"

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Offline Diver409

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2004, 11:41:48 »
Big time #237...at least until that fictitious day arrives when we are allotted under water weaponry eh?  ~~PFFT~~
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Offline Slim

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2004, 13:38:49 »
Actually I did know one (repeat one) armoured type who is/was a qualified combat diver. He was a sgt in Gagetown at the school when I met him. I believe that his paret unit is the RCD'S. He wore the Cbt Diver qualification on his uniform.

Mind you this is going back about 10 years now...

Slim
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Offline Diver409

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2004, 15:37:06 »
I have little doubt this person exists...and when/if the day comes when I decide to leave my beloved core :cdn:...I will also be one who wears the badge in whatever trade I decide to belong to.   The point is, there is no doubt that he first had to attain the qualification as a reg force combat engineer.   The only two ways that I am aware of to become a certified/qualified combat diver are; 1)You must   :skull: survive :skull: the two week preliminary course and prove to the powers that be that you are not only worthy but ready to take the 10 week combat divers course, and 2)You must be a qualified ships team diver and take the necessary under water demolitions training and recce instructionals that will allow you to evolve from the lowest level of military divers.   I do not have the time in the logistical portions of the diving world to quote scripture on this topic, but the conversation has been discussed at length on many occasions down at dive stores.   I'm sure my fellow divers :salute: who do have more knowledge on this topic will step up to add to this if I am off a little...so watch and shoot   :gunner:.
'When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl, when you can't even do that...you find someone to carry you.'

eod/combatdiver

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2004, 08:28:54 »
Was his name SgT Albertson?

mike