Author Topic: All Things Combat Diver (merged)  (Read 146663 times)

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Offline Diver409

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2004, 09:27:04 »
Actually Mike, I had a sidebar conversation with Slim and it seems he may have mistaken the STD (ships team diver) badge for ours.  He said that the Sgt's name was Aymar...(hope I'm remembering that correctly).  S'all good...common mistake.
'When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl, when you can't even do that...you find someone to carry you.'

Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2004, 22:36:30 »
I agree with 409, don't know of anyone who wasn't a combat engineer first who is a combat diver now.  There's always a few "characters" at 3 PPCLI who try to load themselves on the course every year, only to get unceremoniously dropped once FDU(P), and now CADC, calls the Bde HQ and tells them the course is not for them.  So, they end up taking the STD course instead.  Why? I really don't know?  If it is to develop combat swimmers for the Recce Pls....great....but they will be a little hard up once they figure out that the FDUs are not issuing wet suits anymore.  Chimo!

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Offline Slim

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2004, 22:58:59 »
I believe I saw in an earlier comment in this thread that the engineer CBT Divers (for the most part) do engineering tasks, with some sneaky-pete stuff thrown in...

Would the engineer trade object to evolving the role of the Combat diver to include more of a SEAL/SBS application?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Slim
"The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Edmond Burke

Offline Diver409

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2004, 23:35:59 »
You would not believe how easy the transformation would/could be.  Just like all training in the CF we train for war.  We train as often as we can for the unlikely situation that the CF may employ us in a hostile enviornment.  In that, a situation may arise that the combat divers may have to insert & extract themselves from that enviornment...and deal with hostiles to accomplish that task.  Under this premise is how we attempt to train on a regular basis.  As engineers it does not make us happy to have to build bridges, breach minefields, disable booby traps (or any other of the taxing problems we encounter) in the dark and wearing camo paint while thinking about being shot.  We train under those conditions that the likelyhood of us having to do anything under less stress...is easier and we are more proficient and confident for that training.  Now put that trianing into the watery enviornment.  Slim, we do train as if we were in those enviornments because everything else is easier.  You want to know if the engineer trade would object?  Ask the trade leaders.  You want to know if the divers could step up?  Give us the proper equipment...and the chance...
'When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl, when you can't even do that...you find someone to carry you.'

Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2004, 11:59:50 »
409- well said.   Whether we will ever get called to do the deeds our government orders will remain to be seen.   However, as professional soldiers we need to be ready to take on combat tasks.... we are the insurance.   Regretfully we don't have the resources ($ and eqpt) to do more.

Slim - in my humble opinion - our combat divers could match the skill level of SEAL/SBS teams task for task given the resources and a will to succeed.

237
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Offline Slim

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2004, 16:35:20 »
Hey Gents

From the little that I know about the cbt diving trade, and stuff that I've heard from those involved in it I have gotten that impression before.

Canadians tend to be very good at what they do in any military enviorment that we're put in. Be it air, land or sea element. It would not surprise me in the least to leanr that, with a few equipment upgrades and some expansion of training on the part of the trade that this would be very quickly possible.

Would the trade need to expand in order to take on those sorts of taskings? How coud it be done and what sort of training would then be required to reach that level. (feel free to PM if you don't want to answer in the open forums)

Cheers gents

Slim
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Offline Diver409

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2004, 17:59:15 »
Mike or 237, either of you want to field this?   You both have far more experience in this field than I do and I'm not sure that I'm qualified to answer this with only a handful of operational dives and a couple of RB's under my belt, regardless of TI and quality of training.   I know what I'd like to think are the facts, but I hate waving the flag in the face of veterans if I'm off a bit.   It has all been discussed before within the confines of many an RB and post dive...but I'd rather wait for others of your tenure to give me 'the nod' before I chip in. :salute:
'When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl, when you can't even do that...you find someone to carry you.'

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2004, 02:23:19 »
I know of one who went through the back Door and was denied the course just because of the way he did it and it was not needed per the Unit he was with but other wise he would have gotten then course.
It's not that we rentals can't do it,it's do we need the course?
But what I do get angry with is the narrow minded comments about us Rentals.

Before you all jump on my back,I have forgotten more than what most of you have learnt.
I first joined in 76 in the Wack with 3Fd Sqn,I think I'm the only Rental Sapper here who can say He served  with 3 FD Sqn,never mind Reg., Kat you serve with 3Fd.Sqn.?

As to E.O.D. in regards to Rentals pm me.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2004, 02:38:15 by Spr.Earl »
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




UBIQUE
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Offline SprCForr

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2004, 21:46:14 »
It was 1 CER by the time me and Kat got there.
"We don't rent pigs"

Offline Ranger12

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Combat Divers?
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2004, 07:51:11 »
Hello any combat divers on here who would like to talk on msn i got lots of stuff to ask and stuff. im 15 trying to find a career  in the forces? thanks chris :cdn:

Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2004, 13:03:33 »
Slim,

In my opinion, JTF-2 has the maritime (re: underwater) mandate to execute some of the tasks you speak about.  If Canada ever develops a Tier 2 force, and there has been talk about it, then maybe they would need combat divers with expanded skills to be part of the operational grouping.

sigh.

Until that happens though, I believe we will continue to operate with the doctrine and equipment we have.  Combat divers will just continue to be professional and believe that good, hard and creative training will be the groundwork for any operational tasking that might come by.  We can't afford to become complacent.

Merry Christmas everyone!  :cdn: :-[
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Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2004, 13:05:47 »
Sad face was supposed to go after the "sigh".... Christmas is supposed to be a happy time!

[that teaches me to use those bloody emicons...]

S6
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Offline Sapper6

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Re: Combat Divers?
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2004, 13:08:49 »
Chris,

There are a few combat divers on these boards.  I'm sure either Diver409 or myself can answer your questions.

Chimo6
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Offline Scott

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Re: Combat Divers?
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2004, 13:10:18 »
Merging this with other thread on Combat Divers
Be nice for no reason.

Offline Diver409

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2004, 06:34:22 »
Spr Earl,

        Not that I would want to take from your lengthy stay in the forces or the accumulation of your knowledge base as an engineer...but you really need to lighten up on the offense taken in regards to comments made about reservists / 'rentals'.   Speaking as a former infantry 'half-man' I can honestly say that while I get a kick out of slagging my reservist brothers from time to time, I always make it known that I am not only kidding, but that I am well aware that I don't know anyone who can dispute the existence of an engagement, war or battle that was ever fought and won without the use of reservists.   Without the integration of reservists into full military actions it is my opinion that the experience base in the reserves would cease to exist and you would see alot more 90/10 regiments being formed just so you could be assured of a proper training cadre.   No one (intelligently) disputes the need for reserves, or argues the reasons behind the regular use of them on tour...it is merely a light hearted slagging from time to time over the fact that they have not made the full-time commitment.   Those pers out there who actually have a personal grudge against the reserves because of the inexperience, seemingly improper training or lack of commitment witnessed, can also think of a time when they have witnessed keen reservists...as well as thud-f..k regulars.   The fact is, there are just too many reservists who, from my own experience, have a tendency to say 'f..k it I'm outa here' when the going gets tough...because they know they still have a separate life back home.   The 'I don't need this reg force jarhead bullshit' attitude is far more prevalent that it appears some are willing to admit.
        As this pertains to reservists as combat divers...I think the topic has been discussed it vast detail.   Unless you can find someone who is a reservist, has never been a reg and can actually say they are a qualified combat diver (who is known by other combat divers for reasons of credibility)...then I'd have to say the reasons why they don't exist have been spelled out.   You'd be surprised at how closely related the reasons against; a) qualifying reservist combat divers, and b) giving actual Canadian combat divers re-breathers and underwater weaponry, are.   From my level it appears to still be money and dedicating resources.   With the size and mandate of our army, only time will tell if either will change.
        So...lighten up Spr.Earl...no one slags an engineer like another engineer and if you continue to expose the soft under belly of offense...the sharks will continue to take bites.   Just be thankful you're not in the diving world...mudsharks strike harder and faster when they see blood...hahaha.

#409...Bubbles Up!
'When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl, when you can't even do that...you find someone to carry you.'

Offline Sapper6

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2004, 15:14:25 »
CHIMO 409 CHIMO!

237

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Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: On Becoming a Combat Diver
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2004, 22:02:49 »
Spr Earl,
  So...lighten up Spr.Earl...no one slags an engineer like another engineer and if you continue to expose the soft under belly of offense...the sharks will continue to take bites.   Just be thankful you're not in the diving world...mudsharks strike harder and faster when they see blood...hahaha.

#409...Bubbles Up!

Touche ;)
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




UBIQUE
Be Safe

Offline Sea-dog

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2005, 11:29:39 »
I am new to this very nice site. I am an ex-navy diver,started as a ships diver and later qualified to the ranks of combat divers.
Combat Divers is a unique group and I do believe that they qualify as a "Elite Force".
The training of combat divers over lap the diving training given to Special Forces Divers in several areas,both units use close-circuit O2 diving equipment and is trained in underwater sabotage,demolitions and reconnaissance.

One of the main differences is in the area of operation,naval combat divers operate mostly under water and very seldom leave the water,while Special Forces divers,often venture futher than the beach-head and conduct a variety of mission far in land.

There is often confusion about the term Special Forces (Commando / SEAL type units ) ,Naval combat divers and the term Special Operations (Spec. Ops. )
Special Forces operate under the umbrella of special operations,however naval combat divers are often called upon to work in conjunction with Special forces specially during indiction and extraction of these forces using either submarines or other naval surface vessels.
Combat Divers are often part of the integrated combined forces used in support of Special Forces during Special Operations.

They are very flexible and in peace time will operate as engineers,construction divers,salvage teams, air and sea rescue ,but also play a very important role conducting explosive ordnance disposal ( IEOD ) as clearance divers to safe guard naval and sea ports in compliance with the new ISPS regulations against terrorism.

Offline SprCForr

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2005, 22:10:44 »
 ???
"We don't rent pigs"

Offline Sapper6

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2005, 14:30:54 »
I am new to this very nice site. I am an ex-navy diver,started as a ships diver and later qualified to the ranks of combat divers.
Combat Divers is a unique group and I do believe that they qualify as a "Elite Force".
The training of combat divers over lap the diving training given to Special Forces Divers in several areas,both units use close-circuit O2 diving equipment and is trained in underwater sabotage,demolitions and reconnaissance.

Sea-dog,

I think you may be mixing up "combat divers" with "clearance divers" ?   Being ex-Navy and reading about your experience suggests that you may be referring to Clearance Divers.

Maybe it is our Canadian upbringing or just being humble, but we have never called our combat/clearance divers - elite forces.   I suppose the closest thing we would have to elite forces is JTF-2 which includes divers.

S6
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Offline Sea-dog

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2005, 11:02:13 »
Hi S6, I am not trying to be anything but humble. I am ex South African and during my career,the terrorist ,the bombs and the missions were real.
I do not apologize for being proud !

I cannot speak for the Canadian Naval Divers, I just wanted to impress upon you that there are other Naval forces that operate slightly different. I still emphasize, I operated as a member of Special Operations in support of Special Forces during indiction and extraction of these forces deep inside enemy terrorties.

In the 70's Naval Clearance Diving Instructors were on loan to train Special Forces Divers in the use of Close Circuit O2 diving equipment and on some missions also accompanied these forces as part of a Naval support group.
I sincerely hope that the Canadian Naval divers are as proud of their units as I am of mine :salute:

Offline Sapper6

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2005, 13:38:07 »

Hi S6, I am not trying to be anything but humble. I am ex South African and during my career,the terrorist ,the bombs and the missions were real.

Sea-dog,

Had no idea that you were coming from a South African perspective.  As this is a Army.Ca site, I assumed that you were a Canadian Naval type and just wanted to confirm our terminology....  I meant no malice.

BTW all Canadian Army and Navy Divers are and will remain a proud bunch.  Chimo! Bubbles Up!

S6
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Offline joe

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2005, 10:14:13 »
My first post so hopefully this'll work out. I've read all the posts here and the comments are all very familiar and interesting. It's great to see the interest by so many out there. Just a few comments with regard to what I've read (no particular order):

We are Engineers. Anyone with an SF mind set should be looking for a Navy SEAL/JTF2 etc website. Engineer tasks in support of the land forces commander in and around a water environment. Mine/obstacle clearance or breach (two completely different things), mine/obstacle emplacement, minor u/w construction, search and recovery, and recce are the major tasks, though there are others.

For those who may be unaware the lead agency representing Army diving is the Army Dive Centre (ADC) in CFB Gagetown located within the lines of the Engineer School. The ADC reports to the Cmdt CFSME, and is responsive to Director Land Force Readiness (DLFR) and Land Forces Doctrine and Training System (LFDTS). The ADC is responsible to those orgs for the development of diving doctrine, tactiques, techniques and procedures (TTPs) - read "drills" - coord of Army diving administration, equipment trials and advising higher HQ on what eqpt to purchase to support our needs in fulfilling diver tasks, etc

The ADC is also the lead Army agency which deals with the Director of Diving Safety and the Navy, both of which are the "heavy hitters" in the CF dive community. The ADC runs initial combat diver and combat diver supervisor training in Gagetown, and it is responsible for the Army's annual collective diving training exercise, Ex ROGUISH BUOY (happening this year 24 Apr-14 May).

Re-breathers...been hearing about this one since I was qualified. Bottom line: that eqpt has been identified in our doctrine. Means we are authorized to use it should the balloon go up. Real time however, at $10-25K per set, the need to completely change the dive course training plans, the maintenance issues, and more importantly, the significant amount of training time required to maint a diver's currency on the kit (we have enough of a time getting guys out for a CABA dive) those are what is mainly precluding us from utilizing rebreathers. That said, there are a lot of other "ducks" to get lined up first. Training, eqpt, admin, small unit exchanges, CF air standards, new courses, etc. Once that's all done, then rebreathers can get looked at. One step at a time.

Anyone who is interested in becoming a combat diver? It's easy. Become a combat engineer, do your time in the unit for a year or so, apply for the first diver preliminary course your unit runs, suck up the worst two weeks of your life, then attend a 10-11 week course in Halifax and Gagetown where the focus is on training you to be a diver (not to beast you), and you're good to go. Welcome to the team!

Dive Army!


Offline 54/102 CEF

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2005, 11:19:40 »
If this is the Joe I know we need some PICS and STORIES for CDAC site

Signed

Your CDAC Site OPI

If you`ve not see the Combat Diver Website and or are a Combat Diver please drop into

www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC


You can visit me when I retire to the Island of Sayonara - but if the tide goes out - you go too - OK?

Offline joe

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Re: Combat Divers
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2005, 20:40:12 »
I feel the guilt and I'm on it.