Author Topic: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged  (Read 23791 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: CH-149 Cormorant Redeployed
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2005, 23:29:06 »
I am a world expert on airplanes.... :rofl:
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

aesop081

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Re: CH-149 Cormorant Redeployed
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2005, 23:47:34 »
I am a world expert on airplanes.... :rofl:

i remember that guy very well........ ::)

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-149 Cormorant Redeployed
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2005, 14:23:25 »
I am a world expert whilst on airplanes.... :rofl:

...and when not on airplanes, you are "oustanding in your own field" Infanteer!  ;D

Cheers,
Duey

Offline Infanteer

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Re: CH-149 Cormorant Redeployed
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2005, 15:00:56 »
...and when not on airplanes, you are "oustanding in your own field" Infanteer!   ;D

Cheers,
Duey

Thank you, I'm here all week.

"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline daniel h.

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Re: CH-149 Cormorant Redeployed
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2005, 00:17:28 »
another aviation expert   ::)


No I'm not an expert....I just can't understand why so much technology is put on an aircraft which is always a sitting duck.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-149 Cormorant Redeployed
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2005, 01:23:08 »
Well, anything CAN be a sitting duck...helo, LAV, frigate, soldier...anything.  Depends on how you employ whatever system you have at your disposal. 

I have absolutely no problem coming back to the sandbox when we get our heavy lifter and operating it with all the appropriate weapon and protective systems on board and using TTPs that are appropriate to aviation and the specific aircraft type.  I don't consider myself any more a sitting duck than the guys do driving a LAV down Green Route. 

Anyone who is not smart about what they're doing, yes...they can become a sitting duck.

Mein 1 Afghani (= 2 ¢)

Cheers,
Duey

Offline Baden Guy

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Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2007, 11:21:17 »
I have read various comments on the Cormant status on this site.  Are there operational restrictions on the chopper, are they all grounded?

Apparently not from this: http://www.nanaimobulletin.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=51&cat=23&id=810790&more=

Offline kj_gully

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Re: Cormorant Status
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2007, 23:42:33 »
The Cormorant fleet is not grounded. there are ops restrictions in place, but they are being modified and removed as fixes come available, and currently Comox is having pretty good servicability. that being said, that is due in large part to the fact that Cormorants have been removed from Trenton (temporarily??), putting more birds in the other 3 helo sqns hangars ( Comox Greenwood Gander). Trenton is holding standby with hercs and Griffons.

Offline eurowing

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Re: 'Fair amount of corrosion' found on Cormorants
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2007, 21:54:12 »
Media reps were to get a tour today to see the "rust"  ::) and hopefully they will give a proper perspective on corrosion as it applies to helicopters operating in a salt environment.  Suffice it to say I will fly on a Cormorant anytime.
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Offline GAP

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Cracks in tail rotors on Cormorants - fix years away
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2007, 22:35:52 »
Report: Chopper fix years away
Cracks in tail rotors on Cormorants
By MURRAY BREWSTER The Canadian Press
Article Link

OTTAWA — It will take years to fix a serious problem with Canada’s main search-and-rescue helicopter, say documents obtained by The Canadian Press.

Cracks in the hub assemblies of the CH-149 Cormorant’s tail rotors have led to flight restrictions on the 14 choppers, which often perform life-saving operations off the east and west coasts.

Defence Department documents, obtained under access to information laws, say a critical part is being re-engineered "under a high priority, but (is) still several years away" from a complete solution.

A Powerpoint presentation, dated October 2005, suggested the problem wouldn’t be solved for up to six years.

It is unclear how much the redesign will cost, if it will be covered by warranty, or whether taxpayers will foot the bill. Much of the information on cost overruns and maintenance is considered proprietary by the aircraft manufacturer and the company contracted to do maintenance, say defence experts.

The defect, combined with a shortage of spare parts and recently discovered corrosion problems, are a source of frustration for the new chief of air staff.

Lt.-Gen Angus Watt said the ongoing issues with the Cormorants have not affected search-and-rescue missions, but they continue to limit the number of aircraft available for ongoing training of crews.
More on link
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Offline CTD

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Re: Cracks in tail rotors on Cormorants - fix years away
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2007, 23:31:35 »
They said that a few years ago. So now it is going to be another few years. I call total BS on it taking that long to fix. By about another few years time all the airframes will have been past warrenty time and thus they can charge a arm and a leg for the updated tail rotor. 
I say cut the deal, the airframes have not lived up to the promise of airworthiness have a Canadian company perform a redesign and fix the things.
 Good thing we didnt buy a larger fleet of the EH101, I mean CH-149.

Offline geo

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Re: Cracks in tail rotors on Cormorants - fix years away
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2007, 09:03:02 »
this subject came out in.... October 2005... like the story said.
If you do a search on the subject you will find that there is at least one other thread where the virtues of the Cormorant are discussed. 

Is the Cormorant a hunk of junk as CTD contends or is it the teething pains of fielding a new airfrmae?

I have as yet not heard bad things said about the Cormorant from it's maintainers & pilots - so CTD, if you feel so strongly about it's failings, please, tell us more... why is it that you consider to be a bad buy?

do you think the Cyclone will be any better?
do you think the Sea King was any better at time of purchase?
Chimo!

Offline Inch

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Re: Cracks in tail rotors on Cormorants - fix years away
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2007, 15:27:31 »
this subject came out in.... October 2005... like the story said.
If you do a search on the subject you will find that there is at least one other thread where the virtues of the Cormorant are discussed. 

Is the Cormorant a hunk of junk as CTD contends or is it the teething pains of fielding a new airfrmae?

I have as yet not heard bad things said about the Cormorant from it's maintainers & pilots - so CTD, if you feel so strongly about it's failings, please, tell us more... why is it that you consider to be a bad buy?

do you think the Cyclone will be any better?
do you think the Sea King was any better at time of purchase?

A new airframe? We were going to buy these things over 10 years ago. They're not new, the British have had all kinds of problems with them from cracking windshields to tailrotor hubs.

We won't have similar problems with the Cyclone because their hubs are one piece milled titanium, main rotor and tail rotor to my knowledge. Sure we'll have teething pains and we'll probably lose a few too since we're the military test bed for this aircraft, but that's something to be expected when you're the first military customer.

As for the Merlins, they first entered service in the UK in 1999, you would think that the Brits would have worked most of the bugs out of the Merlins by the time we bought them for SAR 5 years later, but nope.
You sir are a moron!
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Offline geo

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2007, 13:12:11 »
Merlins / Cormorants - Think that when Canada backed out, the Brits ended up being 1st customers for the EH101s.  Now considering that they are now fielding a US101 to be built in the USA and are replacing the presidential helicopter with a 101, I have to conclude that, despite its faults, the Cormorant is not a bad bird.
Chimo!

Offline CTD

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2007, 00:28:20 »
I can list a couple of the known problems with the Cormorant, such as the tail rotor, cracking windshield, corrosion a few electricle glitches, parts supply problems and technicle support from the manufacturer. The remainder I am not at bay to speak about.
This isnt a new platform as indicted. It has been around for more then a few years.
We now have a platform that is ops restricted from out of the box. This will continue for many years to come. This platform although a cadillac of Helo's is also a lemon of such.
The US has imposed rules on the delivery of their Presidential EH101's. They must be able to fly with no restrictions out of the box, they have to be reliable.

Eurcopter got caught with their pants down on gambling that their updated EH101's were going to be problem free. Well we lost their gamble.
How to fix it is the question.

How I would do it is ask Canadian Aerospace to build a new tail rotor. 

As for the the Sikorsky were buying having teething problems. So far so good for the platform. With a long history of making RELIABLE MILITARY Helicopters I think Sikorsky can and will produce a better more reliable product. 

Just to let everyone know I have good friends who work for the same companys who build, fix and maintain the airframes internationlly we discuss here. They are the SME's on these subjects. The in and outs of what is and isnt working, the cost of such projects not only to Canada but to their own companys in money and reasearch.

Just because you fly a machine or you fix it, doesnt mean you know more or less then some one else. All it means is you have information for the puzzle.

Just because the people who fix or fly the machines are not complaining to you doesnt mean everything is peachy. 

Offline h3tacco

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2007, 07:30:31 »

Eurcopter got caught with their pants down on gambling that their updated EH101's were going to be problem free. Well we lost their gamble.
How to fix it is the question.



Just a correction Eurocopter has nothing to do with the EH101. It is built by a consortium of two of its main rivals Augusta and Westland. Also, in regards to the CH148 not having any major problems when delivered, just remember no one really knows because the fly-by-wire variant has not flown.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 16:53:54 by h3tacco »

aesop081

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2007, 12:19:15 »
Just to let everyone know I have good friends who work for the same companys who build, fix and maintain the airframes internationlly we discuss here. They are the SME's on these subjects. 



 :rofl:

I hope you arent refering to IMP

Offline geo

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2007, 22:18:23 »
CTD
considering that you are transmitting info that you got from a friend or a friend of a friend, whatever you declare is 2nd hand information.

Some of the defects you listed (windshield cracks) have been reported in the Merlin.  I have not read about same happening in the Cormorant.

Also, the EH101 is built by westland and Augusta... two companies that have considerable experience in building helicopters.  Reliable military helicopters.  No grounds to diss them
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 22:21:03 by geo »
Chimo!

Offline CTD

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2007, 23:36:51 »
It is AugustaWestland.
There was cooperation between the two companys Euro and Augusta to build the EH101, although they are competitors on paper they are merged through ownership stocks.
I cannot remember who bought into who. 36% shares

AugustaWestland is the principle builder of the EH101,
I always get confused between them and Eurocopters because some of their projects are so closely merged.
yes the Cormoronts had cracking windshields. They put a restriciton on them I think it was 2 years ago for this problem, It was quickly fixed in about 2 or three months.

Or maybe I am totally full of it and have no clue as some on this site seem to think which is the way it goes on in here. If they didnt here it themselves or see it in writing they dismiss the whole thing as a rumour or a flame war.
what ever,

The helos we have are some of the nicer platforms around in the world. they are hightechm user friendly, and maintainer friendly. You usually see one or the other not both.

Cheers
 

Offline geo

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2007, 08:13:17 »
CTD,
I don't think the tone of my post any way near a flame. 
Your earlier posts left an impression that you considered the Cormorant a hunk of junk - which it isn't... re para 4 of your last post

Quote
The helos we have are some of the nicer platforms around in the world. they are hightechm user friendly, and maintainer friendly. You usually see one or the other not both.
Chimo!

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2007, 09:57:24 »
There was cooperation between the two companys Euro and Augusta to build the EH101, although they are competitors on paper they are merged through ownership stocks.
I cannot remember who bought into who. 36% shares

You sure about all that?
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline time expired

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2007, 09:20:27 »
I am very confused by this EH 101,Merlin,Cormorant, discusion.
If this helicopter is the turkey that a lot of people on this thread
maintain, why does it seem to be selling so well,even the US
President will be flying around in one.Could it be that it is the
only obvious replacement for the S 61 Sea King?.
    Canada really missed out of being on the ground floor of
development of this project,as when our brilliant Prime Minister
Mr Cretian cancelled our original order,we had been offered
substantial work sharing offsets in the production of this
helicopter.When one considers the number of Sea Kings getting
close to their sell by dates it seems to have been a particularly
stupid decision.
     Please feel free to jump in and correct me if my impression
is incorrect.
     Another point that just occurred to me, is the fact that the
introduction of the CH 47 Chinook into Canadian service was
not without problems.One was lost on the delivery flight,at
least we have not lost a Cormorant.
                                 Regards
nothing is better for the morale of the troops
as occasionally to see a dead general
               field marshal slim

Offline geo

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2007, 09:26:34 »
TE,
The fact that the UK ended up holding the bag & enduring the teething pains of a new design is not 100% a bad thing.
The mixed bag of Cormorants & Cyclones may work in our favor over time...

BTW - YES, we did lose a Cormorant.
Chimo!

Offline kj_gully

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2007, 11:18:40 »
All right cannot resist any longer. Many of the problems we have with the shag (slang for a certain ugly seabird) are due to not getting enough of them in the first place. Even with all the issues, they are over 1000 hours each already, some over 2000. Other problems stem from not being privy to the "specs". I am not a maintainer so I do not know the terms, but basically AWIL decides and approves every aspect of our chopper. IMP cannot make mods without approval, nor come up with fixes on their own. Spare parts are extremely slow to arrive, choppers often sit awaiting parts for weeks for fixes that take hours. Our morning briefs almost always have the phrase "awaiting parts/approval/advice from AWIL" (Augusta westland). we still have several ops restrictions attached to our aircraft related to early problems, but many are not lifted because the supplier does not have time/interest in doing the work to get them lifted. I think the windshield speed limit (140? kts) is still in place, although the torque that caused the cracks has been solved for years. The tail rotor half hub issue that caused me so much distress a year or more ago, seems to be well past, yet in prudent risk management, ops restrictions remain, hopefully for not too much longer, mandating a rigid inspection schedule which greatly impacts training (requirements waived during ops). It is embarrassing to me that we have had to replace the cormorant fleet in Trenton with Griffons, an extremely limited SAR platform, in order to maintain our fleet elsewhere. Unfortunately, we can't just buy off the shelf eh101 because Canada has designed the Cormorant as a distinct airframe, with much in common with but enough differences to make our planes unique. Are Cormorants Lemons? They are yellow... I hate working under it, you cannot talk to anyone with the crappy radios, and there are espresso cup holders beside the spotters seats. We in the back got overlooked when the thing was designed, for sure, and we cannot mod it the way we would like due the the restrictive nature of airworthiness certification. The plane flies rock solid, though, it flies in weather that no one should go out in, and it can work at fairly high altitudes. I feel safe (finally) inside it. There is lots of redundancy, and our chauffeurs are generally happy, which makes me happy. They are SARTech lemons, and maintenance lemons, until we get the supply chain sorted out. Overall they are probably a C+. definitely a Canadian Military acceptable grade.

(edited for spell check)

Offline CTD

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Re: Various Problems with The Cormorants- Merged
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2007, 15:27:04 »
I am sure about the AugustaWestland partnership.
Excellant post kj_gully.

The Cormoront is one of the nicest platforms in the world. it is operator friendly and also maintainer friendly. But it has many problems with it for what we bought and how many we were going to buy.
I no where said it was a hunk of junk.
It it not the perfect problem free helo that one thinks.

Cheers