Author Topic: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter  (Read 154049 times)

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2005, 22:18:23 »
As was said earlier, a lot of this thread is ignoring the actual requirments of the CF.

In a perfect world, we should have a wing of CF-15s for air patrols and defence, since they have very long legs to cover the far north and out to the 200 mile limit. For overseas expeditions, particularly in areas with limited/damaged infrastructure, we would need a plane that can operate from austere airfields, or accept unreasonably long transit times and multiple air to air refuelling missions to get there and back. Someone pointed out the need for a CAS capability, the A-10 fits the bill, or perhaps a further upgrade to the AV-8 Harrier II.

Given that there is little support for defense spending in general, asking for several wings of different aircraft is simply out of the question (you will notice the AWACs, JSTARS, air to air refuelling planes and strategic and tactical transports were not mentioned, and helicopters havn't made an appearence either), so the CF-18 will soldier on for several decades to come. We are lucky it is a versatile airframe, and can only hope that whatever is on the market in 2020 will be equally good.

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Well heck! I thought Infanteers' suggestion of a TIE fighter was bang on! Lol.... Except, I'd rather the Rebel X-Wing, it's more versatile with 4 weapons and shields too!

I really couldn't say. My time was in a "Y" wing squadron, and it ended rather badly.... ;)
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Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2005, 00:15:06 »
As was said earlier, a lot of this thread is ignoring the actual requirments of the CF.

In a perfect world, we should have a wing of CF-15s for air patrols and defence, since they have very long legs to cover the far north and out to the 200 mile limit. For overseas expeditions, particularly in areas with limited/damaged infrastructure, we would need a plane that can operate from austere airfields, or accept unreasonably long transit times and multiple air to air refuelling missions to get there and back. Someone pointed out the need for a CAS capability, the A-10 fits the bill, or perhaps a further upgrade to the AV-8 Harrier II.

Given that there is little support for defense spending in general, asking for several wings of different aircraft is simply out of the question (you will notice the AWACs, JSTARS, air to air refuelling planes and strategic and tactical transports were not mentioned, and helicopters havn't made an appearence either), so the CF-18 will soldier on for several decades to come. We are lucky it is a versatile airframe, and can only hope that whatever is on the market in 2020 will be equally good.

I really couldn't say. My time was in a "Y" wing squadron, and it ended rather badly.... ;)


I didn't mean to suggest Japan was small economically, but both Israel and Japan (especially Israel) are a fraction of Canadian territory and yet have very large militaries.

Israel has 19 army divisions and 600 jets with only what, 5 or 10 million population?

As for no support for defence spending, I think there is some support in the public, but the government does a good job of managing public opinion.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2005, 01:10:34 »

Israel has 19 army divisions and 600 jets with only what, 5 or 10 million population?


Yes they accomplish this via Mandatory Military Service for both males and females aged 17 and over living in Israel proper. The IDF also draws it's serving personnel from Jewish Communities throughout the world, not just those living within Israel.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2005, 04:09:07 »
Israel has 19 army divisions and 600 jets with only what, 5 or 10 million population?

Yes, but Canada hasn't been in a state of War and faced extermination with defeat for the last 50 years.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2005, 04:29:03 »
Yes, but Canada hasn't been in a state of War and faced extermination with defeat for the last 50 years.

Exactly, ergo the reason their defense spending (with the assistance of other supporting nations/persons) much out paces ours and their ability to man and field this equipment.
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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2005, 04:40:41 »
I could be wrong but the last time I saw an IDF TO&E it was organized up to brigade strength not division....
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2005, 04:49:31 »
I could be wrong but the last time I saw an IDF TO&E it was organized up to brigade strength not division....

Yes for standing Forces. After serving their 3 years (males) and 22 months (females), Israeli's continue to serve in the IDF Reserve Forces until they reach the age of 50, normally training at intervals throughout the year and spending 1 full month in service. Their Reserve system allows them to "stand up" hundreds of thousands of Reserves within hours and the whole strength of the IDF within 48 hours when required.
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Offline jmnavy

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2005, 15:46:24 »
I was talking to a griffon pilot a couple of months ago who was telling me that he thinks the 18s will be our last manned fighters.  My own background is in software engineering and AI and from that point of view the technology is certainly getting close to being there.  It would also suit the political and idiological climate in Canada where we don't like risking lives.  The jsf-generation of fighters are probably going to be the last manned ones anyway aren't they?  From the sound of things they're starting to push the limits of what a pilot could physically survive (thank you Discover Channel!)

I know all the cf18 pilots are going to jump down my throat for suggesting I eliminate their wicked-cool jobs, but hey, most of you will be retired by 2020 anyway!

I don't know much about the UCAVs that are being developed, but I thought I'd toss it out there as an idea.  Any thoughts?

Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2005, 18:53:18 »
I was talking to a griffon pilot a couple of months ago who was telling me that he thinks the 18s will be our last manned fighters.   My own background is in software engineering and AI and from that point of view the technology is certainly getting close to being there.   It would also suit the political and idiological climate in Canada where we don't like risking lives.   The jsf-generation of fighters are probably going to be the last manned ones anyway aren't they?   From the sound of things they're starting to push the limits of what a pilot could physically survive (thank you Discover Channel!)

I know all the cf18 pilots are going to jump down my throat for suggesting I eliminate their wicked-cool jobs, but hey, most of you will be retired by 2020 anyway!

I don't know much about the UCAVs that are being developed, but I thought I'd toss it out there as an idea.   Any thoughts?


I'm no expert but I still think there are roles for manned fighters, even if unmanned fighteres surpass them.

Unmanned fighters may prove expensive, unreliable if western nations are in a cash crunch in the future....

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2005, 20:45:21 »
Unmanned fighters is most definately the future - when you think about how much weight of a fighter is for life support and crew comfort - a dramatic resizing of future fighters is sure to happen.  Our modern day fighters are stressed to exceed the physical stress that we can put on the human body - by removing the pilot from the equation the aircraft will be far more maneuverable and deadly.
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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2005, 21:53:45 »
It's going to take a mix of aircraft, IMO. I guess I'm old school, but to me the fighter is more than a platform to deliver weapons and take/relay pictures.   Think of those Bear bombers of the 60-90's near or over our airspace- it often required an interceptor aircraft flown by an aggressive pilot managed by instinct in those "eyeball to eyeball" situations to resolve the issue without killing. There may be some increased temptation on the part of an aggressor to try and outsmart and deceive the pilotless aircraft that otherwise might not be present in interceptions involving manned aircraft. In order to convey the message to "frig-off-or-I-will-shoot." and then to watch and if necessary, shoot, requires human interaction in close proximity, not by remote control. It would be a mistake to remove the human thought process required to kill in some situations yet in others, many others, it would likely be desirable to remove the human element altogether, especially when attacking property and not people. But when life taking is required, I think it is in all of our best interests to keep a little of that human touch in play, if only for the accountability aspect of it.     

Fast air to ground strike and air to air [fighter on fighter] will likely be a good role for unmanned fighter aircraft when in an actual war or whatever the term of the day may be. Passive surveillance and sensors for unmanned airframes built to that spec. will also be acceptable use of the technology.

Launching to intercept and warn/fend off/defend should always be the role of a manned high performance aircraft with a pilot making the decisions to engage provided the necessary latitude exists to make those decisions.     Give the pilot the weapons to engage a superior performing pilotless aircraft, but taking the pilot out of the battle space and confining him to Play Station warfare in the back of a truck or deep in a bunker is not going to be the answer for all missions of the future and may actually cause unnecessary harm while solving other problems.

There have to be some measurable consequences for war, the only one that seems to really make an impression is the death toll and fear of becoming a casualty statistic in a war- lets not take that away or we will definitely frig up whats left of this planet.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 22:42:21 by whiskey601 »
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Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2005, 22:41:05 »
Unmanned fighters is most definately the future - when you think about how much weight of a fighter is for life support and crew comfort - a dramatic resizing of future fighters is sure to happen.   Our modern day fighters are stressed to exceed the physical stress that we can put on the human body - by removing the pilot from the equation the aircraft will be far more maneuverable and deadly.


Smaller objects are less capable in some ways.

Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2005, 22:48:33 »
It's going to take a mix of aircraft, IMO. I guess I'm old school, but to me the fighter is more than a platform to deliver weapons and take/relay pictures.   Think of those Bear bombers of the 60-90's near or over our airspace- it often required an interceptor aircraft flown by an aggressive pilot managed by instinct in those "eyeball to eyeball" situations to resolve the issue without killing. There may be some increased temptation on the part of an aggressor to try and outsmart and deceive the pilotless aircraft that otherwise might not be present in interceptions involving manned aircraft. In order to convey the message to "frig-off-or-I-will-shoot." and then to watch and if necessary, shoot, requires human interaction in close proximity, not by remote control. It would be a mistake to remove the human thoughtfulness to kill in some situations yet in others, many others, it would likely be desirable to remove the human element altogether, especially when attacking property and not people. But when life taking is required, I think it is in all of our best interests to keep a little of that human touch in play, if only for the accountability aspect of it.     

Fast air to ground strike and air to air [fighter on fighter] will likely be a good role for unmanned fighter aircraft when in an actual war or whatever the term of the day may be. Passive surveillance and sensors for unmanned airframes built to that spec. will also be acceptable use of the technology.

Launching to intercept and warn/fend off/defend should always be the role of a manned high performance aircraft with a pilot making the decisions to engage provided the necessary latitude exists to make those decisions.     Give the pilot the weapons to engage a superior performing pilotless aircraft, but taking the pilot out of the battle space and confining him to Play Station warfare in the back of a truck or deep in a bunker is not going to be the answer for all missions of the future and may actually cause unnecessary harm while solving other problems.

There have to be some measurable consequences for war, the only one that seems to really make an impression is the death toll and fear of becoming a casualty statistic in a war- lets not take that away or we will definitely frig up whats left of this planet.


I completely agree. To me, people who label this attitude "old-fashioned" are missing the point. Sure there will be roles for unmanned aircraft, but we already have the weaponry to do a lot of damage, we might want to use it unless required. We may gain something simply because it is newer, but we very well might not.

This reminds me of George Grant's "Lament for a nation" where he decried the liberal nature of America in building a soceity around "chasing" the newest technology and the asuumption of progressive improvement via the acqustion of better and better technology.

The reality is for most human beings life is hard enough, and while we are forced to keep up to defend ourselves from competitive opponents, we still do live in a human society whether liberal technocrats like it or not.

The idea that we will need large numbers of unmanned aircraft for interception ignores the fact that most nations cannot even afford even out of date aircraft, and with nuclear weapons few nations are stupid enough to provoke something for no reason.

Offline In the light of things

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2005, 23:11:31 »
Before I comment on the new aircraft idea, I would like to take the time to say something;
f*** john diefenbaker, not only did he destroy a plane, and the international respect of the air force, but a big chunk of nationalism.

And second, I believe that although the f15 is cheap, should we not have the best equiptment possible?  I, personally, would rather have 2 f-22 raptors, than 10 eagles.  Not only that, but we should be considering, as a country, to strengthen relations with Russia.  They have amazing scientists and technologies than massly over publicized f-22's.  Not saying f-22's are bad, on the contrary, they're one of my favourite.  And I believe, not only as a militaryman, but as a citizen and tax payer, I would be happy to dish out a few hundred bucks to gain the respect as a country back, that john diefenbaker killed.  And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying canadians aren't respected, but most of that respect has gone down the drain. 

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Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2005, 00:55:43 »
Before I comment on the new aircraft idea, I would like to take the time to say something;
f*** john diefenbaker, not only did he destroy a plane, and the international respect of the air force, but a big chunk of nationalism.

And second, I believe that although the f15 is cheap, should we not have the best equiptment possible?   I, personally, would rather have 2 f-22 raptors, than 10 eagles.   Not only that, but we should be considering, as a country, to strengthen relations with Russia.   They have amazing scientists and technologies than massly over publicized f-22's.   Not saying f-22's are bad, on the contrary, they're one of my favourite.   And I believe, not only as a militaryman, but as a citizen and tax payer, I would be happy to dish out a few hundred bucks to gain the respect as a country back, that john diefenbaker killed.   And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying canadians aren't respected, but most of that respect has gone down the drain.  

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1 - Diefenbaker must take responsibility though who knows who made the decision.....I don't think a reduction of naitonalism is an accident--it must be by design. Diefenbaker championed nationalism, yet he ended up signing a defence-sharing agreement where Canada would get to bid on contracts with U.S. defence manufacturers and be guaranteed branch plants but we promised not to build another aircraft for 99 years!!!! Who would sign such an agreement? Unless we simply were agreeing to help them become the next empire....we had a population of 12 million when the Arrow was cancelled, and Sweden builds the Saab Gripen with a population of only 7 million NOW....it must have been colonialism due to our foreign ownership, attitude, along with the cold war mentality, etc....also, nation states were seen as a thing of the past to globalist who created this integration we now see so much of.....

2 - Regarding Russia, I agree wholeheartedly, though isn't it the Mig-29 you think we should procure?

I don't believe Russia is willing to sell the Mig-35, and the U.S. won't sell the F-22 I believe.

Offline In the light of things

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2005, 17:37:20 »
You're right. We would get the junky old ones.  But I think we should concentrate on strengthening world relations, and cut the crap on Canada/US relations.  What do they really do for us?  They got this nifty thing called NAFTA, aka the North American F*** Canada Agreement.  But that's besides the point.  Because of CAN/US relations, I would make a guess at that being the reason Russia would not want to work with us, in fear of us giving the US the technology.  And I don't blame them, politicians would jump at a chance to get some votes.

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don't believe Russia is willing to sell the Mig-35, and the U.S. won't sell the F-22 I believe
And again the "friendship" gets us nowhere.

With regards to the Mig-35, I was thinking more about the su-27/37's :)  And please, to all of you that think all I want to do is badmouth the US, you're right!

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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2005, 18:21:24 »
If your intent was to come here and badmouth the US, then you are in violation of the Forum Guidelines:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,24937.0.html

Trolling is not wanted or accepted.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline In the light of things

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2005, 18:44:36 »
that was actually intended as a joke

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2005, 18:54:40 »
Maybe....still violates the Guidelines.

On to your other point of adopting Russian Aircraft. Bad Idea as I don't forsee them setting up a plant in Canada. Getting quality spare parts might be dicey and that supply line across the oceans just does not seem very smart to me.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2005, 21:51:05 »
Not to mention that getting cockpit/avionics converted to North American standard would be a nightmare... as would adding a 1553 databus aftermaket, because there is no way we could do it in the factory in Russia without violating more than a couple of sections of ITAR... as would converting the weapons stations and main CPU to drop/fire our weapons...then we would have to flight test the crap out of it...then we would have to figure out how to give it a certificate of airworthiness...

Or we could just stick to a nice western designed and built aircraft and save ourselves 10 years of headaches redesigning an airplane...

Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2005, 00:12:21 »
Maybe....still violates the Guidelines.

On to your other point of adopting Russian Aircraft. Bad Idea as I don't forsee them setting up a plant in Canada. Getting quality spare parts might be dicey and that supply line across the oceans just does not seem very smart to me.


Just ask the U.S. to sell Alaska back to the Russians. ;D

Offline daniel h.

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2005, 00:13:42 »
Not to mention that getting cockpit/avionics converted to North American standard would be a nightmare... as would adding a 1553 databus aftermaket, because there is no way we could do it in the factory in Russia without violating more than a couple of sections of ITAR... as would converting the weapons stations and main CPU to drop/fire our weapons...then we would have to flight test the crap out of it...then we would have to figure out how to give it a certificate of airworthiness...

Or we could just stick to a nice western designed and built aircraft and save ourselves 10 years of headaches redesigning an airplane...

1 - I believe the Mig-29 is available for export with western avionisc.

2 - Could you explain what ITAR is for the amature crowd like myself?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2005, 15:34:45 »
ITAR- International Traffic In Arms Regulations.  Which I realized that I misused (thinking one thing, typing another).

More properly, I doubt we could get permission from US Congress to take export of US technology (like a 1553 databus, which they must approve) and then haul it to a factory in Russia for installation in a hypothetical Russian Jet by Russian techs.

We weren't talking Mig-29s either, Mig-35s were being discussed.

Anyway, it approaches Science Fiction or Fairy Tales on the scale of probabilty of happening.  IE- it won't.

Cheers.

Offline In the light of things

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2005, 16:12:31 »
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that we should concentrate more on world relations than pure US/British relations.  We have been working for so long to keep the US happy and haven't got much out of it (not saying they haven't done anything but I would definitely like to see more on their part) except for some old half-broken subs and seakings (hold on I got something to say about seakings after this).  I want canada to have a wide variety of partners, not one or two.  And I didn't mean getting the migs and such, I was referring to helping the russians/other countries (and vice versa) to develop future technologies.   

Ok and about the seakings, if any of you have flown in one hopefully you'll agree that the stabelization avionics on it are still advanced compared to many aircrafts, and I would hope that the SeaKings would be redesigned to accomodate faster speeds/better sub tracking/other, and/or put those avionics on newer or future aircrafts.

Offline geo

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Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2005, 17:39:29 »
Up until recently, Marine 1, Dubya's personal helicopter has been a Seathing.
Certainly one that has not ben beaten to death with umpteen deployments and one that has dedicated mechanics and an inexhaustible supply of parts and has been cared for & polished 24/7 but a sea thing nevertheless.... it's a good airframe. It's just that ours are from the original production line.
Chimo!