Author Topic: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter  (Read 180889 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 252,347
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,122
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #500 on: June 12, 2020, 07:55:33 »
That is a good question... it's not like they've been in a hurry or need to be.

And due to the pandemic we'll likely not see anything new until 2075. Maybe.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline suffolkowner

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 20,545
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 504
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #501 on: June 16, 2020, 21:50:54 »

$862 million US to upgrade 36 CF-18's, plus munitions, doesn't seem like money well spent


https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2020/06/16/canadian-cf-18-upgrade-package-okd-by-us/

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 51,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,304
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #502 on: June 16, 2020, 22:29:58 »
FFS...

Even while hemorrhaging money due to closed businesses, CERB payments, COVID related stuff, etc etc -- they STILL can't burn money fast enough   :facepalm:


$862 million... $85M USD per aircraft (Super Hornet & F-35 being roughly equal)...  take into account exchange rate & FMS fees...

That's $862 million that could have been used to directly purchase roughly 8 future fighters, or upgrade base infrastructure for future fighters, or spare parts for future fighters, etc etc.  Or put towards making sure the CSC fleet is filled out.  Or set that aside and use towards a sub replacement, or perhaps ask Sikorski for some additional Cyclone airframes.

But no.  Instead we are buying AESA radars for A model legacy Hornets...  aircraft that are due to be replaced only a few short years after the upgrades are complete...  :tempertantrum:   



Can we just fire these dumb f**ks already?  Pls?  Anybody?   

Could we remind them that our country is currently experiencing a massive shrink of the economy, paying out tons of money via CERB and wage subsidies, are currently unable to complete industry enhancing projects in oil & gas, forestry, etc.  Currently are suffering trade restrictions with China.  And that maybe instead of literally burning almost a billion dollars to upgrade a whopping 36 original Hornets, that money could be used for actually replacing them with jets that already come with the same equipment as the upgrades? 

(Moderators, I apologize.  Rant is off.  Today seems to be an angry day for some reason.  I try to be a moderate voice on here, but stuff like this just blows me away) 
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,352
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #503 on: June 16, 2020, 22:45:24 »
Quote
This sale will provide Canada a 2-squadron bridge of enhanced F/A-18A aircraft to continue meeting NORAD and NATO commitments

So wait two squadrons totaling 36 air frames is enough to meet our NORAD and NATO commitments? but I thought we had a capability gap!? *sarcasm* flying till 2035, if politicians actually let us handle our own procurement we would be receiving deliveries by now.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 51,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,304
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #504 on: June 16, 2020, 22:57:55 »
Not just a capability gap...

An URGENT capability cap, that was one of the government's top priorities.  You know, like 6 years ago... 
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline Dana381

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 41
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #505 on: June 17, 2020, 08:58:10 »
FFS...

Even while hemorrhaging money due to closed businesses, CERB payments, COVID related stuff, etc etc -- they STILL can't burn money fast enough   :facepalm:


$862 million... $85M USD per aircraft (Super Hornet & F-35 being roughly equal)...  take into account exchange rate & FMS fees...

That's $862 million that could have been used to directly purchase roughly 8 future fighters, or upgrade base infrastructure for future fighters, or spare parts for future fighters, etc etc.  Or put towards making sure the CSC fleet is filled out.  Or set that aside and use towards a sub replacement, or perhaps ask Sikorski for some additional Cyclone airframes.

But no.  Instead we are buying AESA radars for A model legacy Hornets...  aircraft that are due to be replaced only a few short years after the upgrades are complete...  :tempertantrum:   



Can we just fire these dumb f**ks already?  Pls?  Anybody?   

Could we remind them that our country is currently experiencing a massive shrink of the economy, paying out tons of money via CERB and wage subsidies, are currently unable to complete industry enhancing projects in oil & gas, forestry, etc.  Currently are suffering trade restrictions with China.  And that maybe instead of literally burning almost a billion dollars to upgrade a whopping 36 original Hornets, that money could be used for actually replacing them with jets that already come with the same equipment as the upgrades? 

(Moderators, I apologize.  Rant is off.  Today seems to be an angry day for some reason.  I try to be a moderate voice on here, but stuff like this just blows me away) 

Certainly makes me think they are planning on making the future fighter procurement drag on even longer than they are admitting.

NORAD/NATO must be pushing them to  field more capable aircraft and they know all the fighter money was just sent out to Canadians in $2000 lots!

Offline suffolkowner

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 20,545
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 504
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #506 on: June 18, 2020, 11:56:33 »
to meet our NORAD commitment we need to be able to have 36 fighters in the air at the same time.

It does look like the government is moving ahead on infrastructure for the future, although only for Cold Lake.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/fighter-jets/future-fighter-capability-project.html

What are we looking at $360 million for the Australian jets and $1B to upgrade 36 jets to help mitigate the transition period?

To me there is no reason for this as the original order book for the F-35 as late as 2008 had Canada buying 80 F-35's in 5 yrs(yrs 8,9,10,11,12). Lockheed Martin has indicated that they have the capacity plus you have the Turkish spots available. To me the only limiting factor in the ramp up/switch over is the ability to provide/train the pilots and maintainers.




Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 87,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,183
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #507 on: June 18, 2020, 15:33:38 »
to meet our NORAD commitment we need to be able to have 36 fighters in the air at the same time.

It does look like the government is moving ahead on infrastructure for the future, although only for Cold Lake.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/fighter-jets/future-fighter-capability-project.html

What are we looking at $360 million for the Australian jets and $1B to upgrade 36 jets to help mitigate the transition period?

To me there is no reason for this as the original order book for the F-35 as late as 2008 had Canada buying 80 F-35's in 5 yrs(yrs 8,9,10,11,12). Lockheed Martin has indicated that they have the capacity plus you have the Turkish spots available. To me the only limiting factor in the ramp up/switch over is the ability to provide/train the pilots and maintainers.

Harper gov't reduced planned F-35 buy from 80 to 65 in 2008, cost presumably:

Quote
...
December 11, 2006: In a signing ceremony at the Pentagon, Deputy Minister of Defence Ward Elcock, signs the third-phase JSF agreement, along with the seven other partner nations. Canada commits up to US$551 million over 40 years to the program to be used for, among other things, manufacturing, testing and tooling equipment. The agreement states that Canada expects to order 80 F-35s, at a rate of 10 per year, from 2014 to 2021, with deliveries starting in 2016 [emphasis added]...

June 19, 2008 - DND releases its Canada First Defence Strategy. The document states for the first time that the government wants to buy "next generation" fighter aircraft to replace the aging F-18s. It also states for the first time that it will need 65 aircraft and establishes a budget of $9 billion to buy the aircraft [emphasis added].

The F-35 is the only "next generation" fighter available to the Canadian forces. The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor is a so-called fifth generation fighter but is not sold internationally. China and Russia are developing fifth generation fighters but Canada does not see them as viable options.

A budget of CDN$16 billion is established to operate and sustain the F-35 for 20 years. The budget is based on DND estimates, but there is no documented analysis to show how the estimates were developed...
https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/f-35-timeline-canadas-biggest-air-defence-purchase-ever

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline QuietSpike2020

  • Guest
  • *
  • 195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #508 on: June 28, 2020, 22:06:32 »
US approves Canadian Hornet upgrade

The US State Department has approved an upgrade for Canada’s fleet of Boeing F/A-18A (CF-18A/CF-188A in national service) Hornet combat aircraft, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on 16 June.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-approves-canadian-hornet-upgrade

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 87,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,183
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #509 on: September 17, 2020, 15:03:17 »
US approves Canadian Hornet upgrade

The US State Department has approved an upgrade for Canada’s fleet of Boeing F/A-18A (CF-18A/CF-188A in national service) Hornet combat aircraft, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on 16 June.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-approves-canadian-hornet-upgrade

Meanwhile USMC to upgrade some 84 of its legacy Hornets with AESA radar and more:

Quote
The Plan For Making Aging USMC F/A-18 Hornets Deadlier Than Ever For A Final Decade Of Service
Major upgrades and a smart fleet management plan will give the Marines the most potent Hornets ever during the twilight of the type's service.

The U.S. Marine Corps is moving towards a streamlined fleet of Lockheed Martin F-35B and C-model Lightning IIs for all of its tactical aircraft (TACAIR) needs post-2030. While USMC leadership juggles the exact planning over the number of the stealthy fighters it will need to meet future requirements, both the McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II and F/A-18A-D Hornet fleets will continue to provide Close Air Support (CAS) for Marines on the ground and air cover above the battlefield. Under current plans, the Harrier II will bow out in Fiscal Year 2028, followed by the Hornet in 2030.

The aging Marine Corps Hornet fleet is composed of a range of 1980s-era F/A-18A-D models, all of which have undergone various upgrades. Now, in order to bridge the decade-long gap between now and the type's retirement, a select batch of approximately 84 Hornets has been earmarked to make it through to the planned “sundown” despite their advanced years via a series of upgrades, the likes of which the Hornet has never seen.

With the Hornet considered to be the USMC’s most potent air-to-air and air-to-ground “legacy” fighter aircraft, the so-called “best-in-breed” are now receiving High Flight Hour (HFH) inspections during depot-level maintenance that will see them out to 10,000 flight hours. Concurrently, they are being equipped with new technology that will enable them to bridge the gap to the Marine Lightning fleet of 2030-onwards.

Known unofficially as “Classic” Hornets, these first-generation F/A-18s were ultimately superseded by the larger F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in U.S. Navy service. The original A-D models have now all been retired from the front line Navy fleet. Some of these aircraft have been redirected into the USMC to help prop up the fleet as the Marines’ eye a planned “sunset” of 2030 for the Hornet [emphasis added].

The F/A-18A-D Program Management Agency (PMA) is actively engaged in future plans for the fleet, which includes managing multiple readiness initiatives, planning an aggressive strike/store plan, and implementing re-engineered end of life Planned Maintenance Inspection (PMI) events. Twice yearly reviews are held to identify the most suitable aircraft that will ensure the Marines keep a credible fleet of Hornets on the flight line now and into the future.

U.S. Marine Corps leadership has laid out the broad ambition for its Hornet strike fighter fleet in its annual Aviation Plans of recent years. Central to this is a series of upgrades that will ultimately realize up to seven squadrons-worth of best condition Hornets, all of which will receive a new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in the form of the Raytheon AN/APG-79(v)4.

This radar is based on the AN/APG-79(v)1 radar that equips Block 2/3 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers. Ambitions for an AESA radar for the Classic Hornet have been in train for a decade, as have numerous other plans. In conjunction with a new advanced self-protection system and a suite of modern precision-guided weapons, the Hornet is being made as lethal as possible in order for it to meet high-end missions over the coming decade.

Speaking to The War Zone, former Hornet Weapons Systems Officer (WSO) Lt Col Michael “Sock” Pavis is the F/A-18A-D Capabilities Lead and F/A-18A-D Air Vehicle Lead for the PMA-265 Hornet Program Office at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland. “The Marine Corps Aviation Plan is the foundation of the plan for U.S Marine Corps F/A-18A-Ds. That’s a “sundown” of 2030 and supporting the transition to F-35. During that transition, the Hornet is the Marine Corps aircraft that has the greatest variety of both air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons. So. we need to support that, and the National Defense Strategy, to ensure we are lethal, survivable, and ready.”

“Keeping that in mind, we are looking at transitioning all our A-D squadrons to be composite squadrons, each with seven F/A-18Cs and five F/A-18Ds. [We will use] the most valuable fleet, [one that gives us] the most capability for the lowest cost of ownership. The F/A-18 was initially designed for 6,000 flight hours, and is now extended to 8,000 hours. Following a High Flight Hour [HFH] inspection, we’re able to fly those F/A-18s to 10,000 hours. That HFH inspection is expensive and time consuming, and [involves] a lot of time where those aircraft are not able to be used because they’re in the depot. The ones that have completed the HFH inspection and are compatible with capability upgrades like the AN/APG-79(v)4 radar, the AN/ALQ-214(v)5 and AN/ALR-67 electronic warfare suites [emphasis added] — those aircraft are the most valuable as they provide the most available flying time with the least expensive depot costs. So, we are able to have our best flyers out there for the longest period of time for the lowest cost. We have a most valuable fleet mindset to reduce cost of ownership and keep the highest capability possible.”..[read on]
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36435/the-plan-for-making-aging-marine-corps-hornets-deadlier-than-ever-for-a-final-decade-of-service

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,375
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #510 on: September 18, 2020, 18:52:18 »
US approves Canadian Hornet upgrade

The US State Department has approved an upgrade for Canada’s fleet of Boeing F/A-18A (CF-18A/CF-188A in national service) Hornet combat aircraft, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced on 16 June.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-approves-canadian-hornet-upgrade

As previous posters have mentioned, the upgrade is for only two sqns so that the RCAF can fulfill its NORAD/NATO obligation. Interesting, the upgrade includes the acquisition of twenty AGM-154C Joint Standoff Weapon (at $720,000 each) which is standoff system capable of engaging various targets including hardened facilities.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 51,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,304
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #511 on: September 18, 2020, 19:18:49 »
As previous posters have mentioned, the upgrade is for only two sqns so that the RCAF can fulfill its NORAD/NATO obligation. Interesting, the upgrade includes the acquisition of twenty AGM-154C Joint Standoff Weapon (at $720,000 each) which is standoff system capable of engaging various targets including hardened facilities.


My understanding is that the acquisition of the twenty AGM-154 is to replace munitions used in Syria.  So just a 'top-up' of sorts.
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 544,575
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,501
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #512 on: September 18, 2020, 19:37:54 »
At this point, I suspect any munitions acquisitions are being made with future employment by future airframes as a consideration.  Standardization is a great thing...
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 97,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,991
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #513 on: September 18, 2020, 21:31:40 »

My understanding is that the acquisition of the twenty AGM-154 is to replace munitions used in Syria.  So just a 'top-up' of sorts.

The AGM-154 brings a new capability for us. 

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 51,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,304
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #514 on: September 18, 2020, 21:33:08 »
I love how even when senior leadership brings it up in a town hall we have, it's still wrong info lol

Thanks for the correction Max
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,375
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #515 on: September 19, 2020, 10:27:02 »

My understanding is that the acquisition of the twenty AGM-154 is to replace munitions used in Syria.  So just a 'top-up' of sorts.

I didn't realize that the RCAF had previously employed the AGM-154 ... thanks..
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 97,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,991
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #516 on: September 19, 2020, 11:34:47 »
I didn't realize that the RCAF had previously employed the AGM-154 ... thanks..

We don’t have AGM-154s in our inventory nor do we have anything with a similar capability.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 178,980
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,601
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #517 on: September 19, 2020, 12:49:21 »
Twenty sounds like a buy to run a test program and not a serious capability?

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 177,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,044
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #518 on: September 19, 2020, 13:18:42 »
Twenty sounds like a buy to run a test program and not a serious capability?

Hey- we will take what we can get.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 97,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,991
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #519 on: September 19, 2020, 13:48:34 »
Twenty sounds like a buy to run a test program and not a serious capability?

We are doing our upgrades with the USMC so likely no test required for the integration.  These are weapons you put in storage and crack open once a year to keep a niche cadre of people up to speed and in case of war.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 14:42:20 by SupersonicMax »

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,375
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,932
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #520 on: September 19, 2020, 17:03:22 »
We don’t have AGM-154s in our inventory nor do we have anything with a similar capability.

Thanks .. 
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark