Author Topic: Close Protection Training  (Read 162471 times)

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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #100 on: February 04, 2009, 21:12:00 »
My only questions is the following,

What Colour is the BoatHouse at Hereford.  No one has been able to get that for me, and it is drivingme nuts.

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2009, 21:32:23 »
Sad to see Canada.


Sad to see Canada what?

Kindly enlighten us please.

OWDU
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Owner

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #102 on: February 04, 2009, 22:42:04 »
Owner,

Perhaps you need to review the posts you have made.  You jumped into a thread on a fairly sensitive topic (one in which most experienced professionals do not freely engage in random discussions about their business) with a blunt and frankly, poorly presented, opening statement.  You made no real attempt to establish bona fides and you have started with an empty profile and a nickname which could be perceived as pompous.

This forum can be very welcoming to professionals who take the time to introduce themselves and establish credibility through their contributions.  We've also had our experiences with walts and imposters and many of the members are guarded when anyone leaps into a thread claiming to be an expert with no substantiation.

It's easy to claim to be a professional, but we have seen that many also have difficulty presenting themselves as one in a text-only environment, where personality, appearance and all of those other clues we normally use in interpersonal interaction aren't there to help the worlds make the points.

Milnet.ca Staff



Fist point - on credentials I won’t bother looking it up as you wrote it.  It mentions impersonation of a member of  former of serving Canadian or other nations armed forces etc. the tick in the box was acknowledgment of prior military service. My email address was open to anyone; there was no commercial site or advertisement.  I had no initial interest in this forum as I was doing a search for a similar site. I read a couple or posts on a subject I am considered a proficient in. So I wrote:-

I hope you don’t mind me butting in, I have been involve in Close Protection training at both a civilian and government level for a number of year and have seen drastic changes in the civilian market mainly a lowering of standards or not knowing what should be taught.

Note the term civilian market

In the UK to protect business from bogus operators the UK government formed a body corporate known as the Security Industry Authority. Its role is to manage the licensing of the private security industry as set out in the Private Security Act 200 .

A PAS is a professional security code of practice. In the UK Close Protection is a civilian qualification. Even a trained military close protection officer leaving the military has to do a fast track SIA course in order to work in the UK. As for it being a sensitive topic. I explained in the first a brief post what I had to offer, a Pas

The PAS is over a hundred pages long it covers briefly the skills that incorporate the latest close protection skills, mainly operational planning. I would have been more then happy to have mailed it to someone who was in the CP role.

I was under the impression that I was on a professional forum that would have appreciated an exchange of information. This is from some of the post I received in return?

business for his "company".
proper grammar and punctuation
certified classroom/trg area trained wannabee.
I need a rest reading anymore of this stuff.  
more TI on Ops than you' have been no where.
easy to claim to be a professional

The reason I made the offer is I always believed that any exchange of information will save lives, it seemed nobody replied in any civil form nobody evaluated the PAS or even read it.

I think we all now agree its time to call it a day.

 Please except any apologies for the provocation I might have caused.

Offline Owner

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2009, 22:45:53 »
My only questions is the following,

What Colour is the BoatHouse at Hereford.  No one has been able to get that for me, and it is drivingme nuts.

dileas

tess


There isn't one.

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2009, 22:55:51 »
There isn't one.

Dang,

You saw me placing the coffee cup....

dileas

tess

I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Poppa

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2009, 00:18:00 »
trained Military Police (which I like to consider an oxymoron   ;D

Ah man...I'm sitting right here...c'mon!
"The Platoon is for all purposes, the unit for whose perfection we strive. Because a perfect platoon means a perfect battalion and brigade or division and the efficiency of any army corps is to be measured by that of it's platoons." Major General Sir John Monash

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2009, 00:36:12 »
Owner,

Mick was absolutly right in everything he said. I thought you might learn from his post, and instead we get a blast of shyte.

Presentation, presentation, presentation. You only get one chance at a first impression.

We are not AHs here, in fact we can be a lot of fun. You come into our house rather abruptly, without an introduction, and immediatly begin to spout off a bunch of 'techo' knowledge, which almost apprears to be several cut and paste jobs form who knows what/where. Terms I have never heard of have been used, and your overall approach sucked.

Then you have this reaction of your response to Mick (whose reply to you was open, honest and fair), which as far as I am concerned was a rather predictable response unbecoming of who you say you are.

I don't think you'll be back. Sad, but the outcome could have been 360 degrees different, and your ideas/input welcomed if put forward with a different manner.

Don't blame us for your own shortcomings on how you conducted yourself in our house.

Cheers and g'day from the tropics,

OWDU
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline KevinB

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2009, 07:45:29 »
I'm SIA certified, however I tend to feel that certification only does justice to those working in Europe, on EP details.  The thread is about Mil CP teams which is more HR PSD than EP.  Granted there is some cross over the majority of the grunt work does not.


Poppa - brother I'm just checking to see if you still read what I post  ;)

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Offline Nauticus

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2009, 15:39:45 »
Were you there?

Quite frankly, I would rather have mature seasoned former-mil veteran pers, with time in country, now as PSD's than some 'SHEMPie' certified classroom/trg area trained wannabee, who has no military experience, and never experienced an operational environment, especially when Murphy's law takes over.

EDIT to clarify the fol:

I had limited esposure with PSD contractors during my tour in Iraq. The ones I met from Triple Canopy, and Blackwater, and others were mainly US former SF soldiers who, IMHO acted professionally, and from my own personal observation one day, acted with such bravery to save another from a shot down LOCH near Hiafa Street while under constant SAF from insurgents. On another occasion while under overwhelming SAF, they saved members from a RPG'd uparmoured SUV in their convoy, not too far from the 14th July Bridge. I did not see this but heard it all. You don't learn that type of stuff ina classroom. One thing I did learn is on a two way rifle range, all that theory/classroom stuff goes right out the window. Just because a few tainted the overall reputation of the Civvy PSD's, then having this over a biased one sided media system, does not make all of them bad.

I do hope that makes sense.

My two bob,

OWDU

I completely agree with your point, but I think some of us missed Owner's point.

He didn't say that ex-military CPP "aren't good", nor is he blaming them for anything. He's suggesting that companies like Blackwater and Triple Canopy hired them based on their military experiences, not their protective experience, and in that, I agree with Owner.

Military experience is a HUGE advantage to doing close protection, but I think standardized knowledge in close protection is more important. Knowing combat, and knowing how effectively protect somebody and assess risk are two different things. I think Owner was just suggesting that all close protection agents should have a basic knowledge of protection, PLUS their military histories. I've been in the industry for a while, and if you don't have first-hand, direct CP training, you won't be an effective CPP, regardless what your background is - military, law enforcement, or just plain security.
"Fate guides who will; who won't, it drags."

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #109 on: February 09, 2009, 03:15:06 »
Naut,

I failed to mention in that post that 4/5 pers in that LOCH which was shot down had survived, and were executed by insurgents in an alley-way between two buildings. The bravery that day was like something out of a movie.

Secondly, the BW blokes used to practise daily their trade, many rehersals even just for a vehicle convoy. Drills included action on breakdown, action on ambush etc, and from the air, drills included extraction of pers from rooftops, and similar actions when they needed to be required.

I would recon that most former SF pers had PSD experience in the first place, and those that did not were trained by those who had been there. Aside from all of this which I watched at numerous occasions at the Crossed Swords and other areas in the IZ, saying anything more in reality would be out of my lane. I still view Owner's comments out of character for who/what he represented.

Cheers,

Wes
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:20:28 by Overwatch Downunder »
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Nauticus

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2009, 00:12:34 »
Naut,

I failed to mention in that post that 4/5 pers in that LOCH which was shot down had survived, and were executed by insurgents in an alley-way between two buildings. The bravery that day was like something out of a movie.

Secondly, the BW blokes used to practise daily their trade, many rehersals even just for a vehicle convoy. Drills included action on breakdown, action on ambush etc, and from the air, drills included extraction of pers from rooftops, and similar actions when they needed to be required.

I would recon that most former SF pers had PSD experience in the first place, and those that did not were trained by those who had been there. Aside from all of this which I watched at numerous occasions at the Crossed Swords and other areas in the IZ, saying anything more in reality would be out of my lane. I still view Owner's comments out of character for who/what he represented.

Cheers,

Wes
I understand your point, and you may be right, but in my experiences, a former member of the military or law enforcement do not have a comparable skillset in relation to close protection, as an actual trained CPP does in close protection.

There's obviously a huge difference between close protection and the military. I'm certain we'll agree that the average CPP does not learn how to become a soldier by just doing his close protection. Likewise, we should also agree that a soldier will not learn close protection to the extent of a specifically trained close protection professional would. Although some may learn some CPP in the military, I would argue that they would learn it much better if they had taken a course specifically teaching close protection.

From my experience, military people have GREAT potential in CPP (and I argue the best criteria for a CPP is a military background, and a working, thorough knowledge of close protection). But without both sides of the bill, I feel some of them are lacking.

Just to give a brief background on myself, I've done lots of training at Executive Security International (which is the Harvard of protective schools), and I have completed the advanced executive protection course, protective intelligence, and special operations courses. Over 1.5 years of intense training covering just close protection (including threat assessment, psychological analysis, investigation, and special responses) is what I feel can "make or break" anybody trying to get into the field.

That said, my comments do not refer to the military close protection team. As I would imagine, these guys undergo unreal amounts of training as well.
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2009, 03:03:53 »
I understand your point, and you may be right, but in my experiences, a former member of the military or law enforcement do not have a comparable skillset in relation to close protection, as an actual trained CPP does in close protection.

There's obviously a huge difference between close protection and the military.

The Combat Team I was a member of had a PSD cell, an all Australian Military Police 'detachment', some on their 3rd tour as PSD in Iraq (also teaching PSD at the School of RACMP between tours). ADF RACMP members are trained to an extreme high standard beyond any civilian accreditiation. They were mature seasoned profesional soldiers/MPs. Ranks were WO2's and SGTs mainly, and with these ranks alone, comes a wealth of experience in itself.

Our Lads had numerous taskings including Australian high ranking politicians and many dignitaries. They were often out several times a day in the most wicked neighbourhoods in the Badlands. I did not spend a just a 'weekend' with these guys, but my entire 207 day tour. Due to the ongoing mission in Iraq, it is not in anyone's best interest for me to comment more on this mission.

Mate, you can have all the graphs, books, videos, DVDs, and certificates of accreditiation you want, but unless thats backed up with real world experience you know, the 'boots on the ground in an hostile and unpredictable environment' stuff, it really does not mean much. Consider it like having sex before your first time, with all the accouterments mentioned above with graphs, books, videos etc, unless you experience it, you don't know what it feels like, so your 'make and break' quote does not go far, nor does your 'experience' as a recently graduated student in this field. I am not flinging shyte at you, just giving you some constrctive criticism which I do honestly hope you can benifit from.

On that note, I do wish you all the best in your future endeavours in this trade, and should you get a chance to be hired to do the CPP/PSD thing 'over there' do stay safe.

Regards,

Wes
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 03:27:48 by Overwatch Downunder »
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline KevinB

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2009, 08:14:49 »
I understand your point, and you may be right, but in my experiences, a former member of the military or law enforcement do not have a comparable skillset in relation to close protection, as an actual trained CPP does in close protection.

There's obviously a huge difference between close protection and the military. I'm certain we'll agree that the average CPP does not learn how to become a soldier by just doing his close protection. Likewise, we should also agree that a soldier will not learn close protection to the extent of a specifically trained close protection professional would. Although some may learn some CPP in the military, I would argue that they would learn it much better if they had taken a course specifically teaching close protection.

From my experience, military people have GREAT potential in CPP (and I argue the best criteria for a CPP is a military background, and a working, thorough knowledge of close protection). But without both sides of the bill, I feel some of them are lacking.

Just to give a brief background on myself, I've done lots of training at Executive Security International (which is the Harvard of protective schools), and I have completed the advanced executive protection course, protective intelligence, and special operations courses. Over 1.5 years of intense training covering just close protection (including threat assessment, psychological analysis, investigation, and special responses) is what I feel can "make or break" anybody trying to get into the field.

That said, my comments do not refer to the military close protection team. As I would imagine, these guys undergo unreal amounts of training as well.

Hey rockstar,

 MIL does teach CP/PSD.

 How long was your course if your such the expert?  You spent a year and a half on a course, did you fail it repeatedly?

WPPS contracts (which you refereing to with TC, Dyn, and BW) have a selection and training course.
  Secondly there are many segments of operating in a NON Permissive environment that members of a PSD team are not doing PSD, but they are support for the actual operatives doing PSD.

 Your signal to noise ration is way to high, and you have nothing credible to add.

ESI is fine for CONUS CP duties.  It does jack and crap for teaching you how to do HR PSD.

Kevin S. Boland
Manager, Federal Sales
FN America, LLC
Office: 703.288.3500 x181 | Mobile: 703-244-1758  | Fax: 703.288.4505
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #113 on: March 04, 2009, 16:39:20 »
I understand your point, and you may be right, but in my experience, a former member of the military or law enforcement do not have a comparable skillset in relation to close protection, as an actual trained CPP does in close protection. 

Can you expand on this certification?  Are you refering to the ASIS program or some other private org process?

Offline Breacher41

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #114 on: March 04, 2009, 17:00:15 »
Can you expand on this certification?  Are you refering to the ASIS program or some other private org process?

GM he's talking about ESI http://www.esi-lifeforce.com/
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #115 on: March 04, 2009, 17:12:32 »
GM he's talking about ESI http://www.esi-lifeforce.com/

Ah.

There are several companies out there with international reputations that offer similiar certifications - claiming to be the 'Harvard' of protection schools seems a bit much...

Offline Breacher41

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #116 on: March 04, 2009, 18:05:11 »
Ah.

There are several companies out there with international reputations that offer similiar certifications - claiming to be the 'Harvard' of protection schools seems a bit much...

GM I agree with you. I think it's the OP tooting a little bit.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #117 on: March 04, 2009, 21:15:50 »
I will add to the comments by saying our company has CP experts, some with CPP-type quals and some without, and come from a variety of military, law enforcement and private sector backgrounds.  From what Ive seen of their work, there is no 'right formula' for who and what a CP expert is or should be, although a military background is definately an asset...


Offline Nauticus

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2009, 14:47:11 »
Sorry for the delayed reply guys. Thanks for those of you who decided not to be rude.

Yes, I've completed the EP and SpecOps certification programs at ESI. And yes, in the private EP industry, ESI is considered the Harvard of EP schools. The reason for this is that ESI is the only EP school that teaches hundreds and hundreds of hours of EP theory, while most others teach reactive techniques related to the field of EP. To better paint this picture, most EP schools teach you what to do if your convoy became ambushed. ESI teaches that, but also advanced ways of not being ambushed in the first place.

Second, it appears most of you missed the point that I was making. I said that a regular member of the military makes the best protection agent if they are specifically trained in EP. Additionally, I also said that a member of the military who isn't trained in EP, wouldn't make as good an EP agent as somebody who is trained in it. The reasoning for this is, if you aren't trained to do a job, somebody who is will always do it better. The military offers great training, but unless you are part of Canada's Close Protection Team, or you've taken the course, you haven't been trained in EP.

I'm not really trying to be controversial or anything silly like that. While I don't think the people here have been giving private sector EP training the credit it deserves, you can obviously express your own opinion. I, however, would respectfully disagree with your opinion, and the experiences that I've obtained support my perspective. If yours differ, that's fine as well.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2009, 15:31:55 »
The military offers great training, but unless you are part of Canada's Close Protection Team, or you've taken the course, you haven't been trained in EP.

I would disagree with you there - there are many routes to EP/CP, and not all of them involve courses.  You fail to account for most persons working in EP gaining their skills through direct experience and mentoring under others. 

Offline CountDC

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2009, 15:32:59 »
one point Nauticus so that everyone has a better picture of what experience you are basing all your comments on - what is your military experience?  You have nothing showing in your profile other than that you are in BC, have indicated in Oct you were enrolling in armoured and then in Dec indicated you were going infantry while your avatar indicates you are a trained private. Perhaps it is time for you to update your profile and put your correct information out here.
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Offline westie47

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #121 on: March 08, 2009, 13:12:21 »
The 'Harvard' of EP schools??? Some think Pheonix is the Harvard, others think Ronin is the standard, still others believe Trojan is. I'm not even going to mention the US WPPS schools...BW, Dyncorp Crucible. The video on the ESI site looks like a Tactical Response HRCC course video.

I'm sure it's a good school/course, but not the be all/end all.
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Offline lunn200

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2009, 17:24:55 »
Hello all,

I have heard about a close protection course offered to any trade of the military. Like most things on training bases I have heard it second hand. Can anyone point me in the right direction or if anyone has taken this course I would like some info.

Thanks for your time and your responses
chimo

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2009, 18:38:33 »
Hello all,

I have heard about a close protection course offered to any trade of the military. Like most things on training bases I have heard it second hand. Can anyone point me in the right direction or if anyone has taken this course I would like some info.

Thanks for your time and your responses
chimo

I do not know if you have read this entire thread or not but there is some good info in it about the course (plus some junk). The place to find info about course dates is in CANFORGENS, just look them up they tell you the course dates , prerequisites and submission deadlines.  My advice read old CANFORGENS if you don't have access to them or don't know how to get them ask you supervisor. 
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Offline garb811

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Re: Close Protection Training
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2009, 19:19:14 »
There is an updated CANFORGEN out, but until you get a chance to find it, this should cover most of what you are looking for:  Close Protection (CP) Opportunities