Author Topic: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)  (Read 516730 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 62whoknew

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: JATF
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2005, 18:26:10 »
You know what would probably be another good place to start looking for potential pers to fill positions in what may verywell be the best go the CF has seen in 15 years...the other 6 031 Bns.  I could have sworn that I worked with a number of qualified ppl.

I think maybe a proper selection process, maybe even prerequisites like minimum TI and quals like afore mentioned.  Certainly being a member of a para coy is not a qualification of itself.

I did my recce course with some of 3VPs finest and uh....well, they didn't leave any lasting impressions :o

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,856
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: JATF
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2005, 18:59:57 »
I did my recce course with some of 3VPs finest and uh....well, they didn't leave any lasting impressions :o

Lest this turn into a "light vs mech" bunfight, we will concentrate on the actions of your snipers and recce platoon during the stand trg on the last exercise.

Remember when they got caught - all of them, and their LUVW and "forgot" to zeroise their radios, or get rid of their Drop off or PU points on the map, or sanitise their kit, or zeroise their GPS or wipe their map off? And then spent 7 hours blindfolded, stacked on top of each other in a junkyard aerostar?

That sure left a lasting impression on me, especially when we started broadcasting Pakistani top 40 over the Bde means, and were able to bump their helo when it showed up to extract them. 

But keep up the good work, after all, we did'nt catch them because we were the para coy, working 20 hour days for two weeks. Any old unit would have caught them and exploited their mistakes - right?

I seem to remember my pl inflicting some 75% casualties on 2VP (both coys) when they attacked our position, even though we could not kill either the LAVs or anyone in them, and were outnumbered 4 to 1. MILES gear is a wonderful thing.

Yup. Lasting impressions indeed.

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline silentbutdeadly

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 95
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 261
Re: JATF
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2005, 20:00:17 »
Since we are talking about exercises! i remember being safety staff for the 3VP coys on there live fire trace, 1 getting ready for the PRT, and well wasn't impressed and the most checked out one was not the Para coy thats forsure. Like everyone is saying everyone , at least in the cbt arms , should be given the chance the show what they have. Oh ya didn't three guys from 1 VP pass the pathfinder course last yr ! hmmmm :salute:

Offline ArmyRick

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 26,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,957
  • What the????
Re: JATF
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2005, 20:17:10 »
There are switched on troops and hammerheads in EVERY Battalion ! Personally I think the first batch of troops that form the nucleas of the new unit should be troops with qualifications such as Patrol pathfinder, Recce patrolman and sniper. Oh yeah, a few of the old advance pioneer crowd would be good for establishing some basic demolitions skills. My two point seven cents.
M'eh

Offline BulletMagnet

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,113
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,011
  • I'm not just disobedient, I'm careful
Re: JATF
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2005, 20:50:24 »
I am a firm believer in that every 031 should have the opportunity to try out for the JATF, though I also believe that forming a group like this the first to try out should be those from the standing Recce Pl of all 9 Bn's and of course the snipers along with the Para guys. After you have a core nucleus of guys then you start drawing from everywhere, not just the LIB's.

Having said that, I'm also sure that not everyone will be intrested in trying out but it does give those that have been bitching that once your Recce/Para/Sniper qualified (not all of them mind you, though I do know a few that are all of them) that there was nowhere to go, I mean I was in Recce for a year but for career progression I need to leave, however I have no desire to return to a rifle coy and be C9 gunner or 3 i/c, there was no sense of somewhere to strive to be other then the Hill. Of course you may not have been able to get selected for the hill even if you did complete the 6 day.

Now we have something to strive for something to push ourselves to achieve and once there a whole new plethora of challenges within that unit.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about trying out for this unit anytime this year though it was  passed on in an "O" group that Pte/Cpl lvl pos wont be till APS 07.
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,856
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: JATF
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2005, 21:02:59 »
The point is, qualifications are largely immaterial if you do not operate in the capacity you were trained in.

When was the last pathfinder platoon operation? Are there even enough torches in any unit to pull it off? Probably not. When is the skill set utilised?

Congrats on being safety staff, I noticed none of your units achievements WRT light trg were covered though. Care to elaborate? hmmmm?

The snipers are a "utilised" skill set, and the last ex demonstrated that perhaps they need a little more fine tuning - in the second Bn anyway.

The Para coy is also utilised in it's assigned role. I'm not going to lie and tell you that we are the best Light infantry company ever to walk the face of the earth, but at least we do jump, hump and shoot.

In my first post I clearly stated that;

Quote
I would advocate keeping the selection process closed to all but reg force cbt arms, at least at first, because having a pre-requisite of reg force time (one or two years) would provide the source units with new manpower with which they could rebuild after the initial shock of losing troops to this new unit.

So I advocated "all reg force cbt arms" to start with, should form the first selection.

But carry on with the jealous ranting, I for one am happy to say that I can do more in this army than occpy a LAV.

See you at the selection.
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline BulletMagnet

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,113
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,011
  • I'm not just disobedient, I'm careful
Re: JATF
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2005, 21:20:19 »

But carry on with the jealous ranting, I for one am happy to say that I can do more in this army than occpy a LAV.

See you at the selection.



Jealous ranting? was this directed at my post GO!!!...because if it is I didn't mean for my postion to come off as such at all.
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,856
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: JATF
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2005, 21:24:57 »
Not you - I was talking to the loud and harmless guy and the one from 2VP.

You are right about giving members of some units somewhere else to go but the hill though, this was long overdue!

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline BulletMagnet

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,113
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,011
  • I'm not just disobedient, I'm careful
Re: JATF
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2005, 22:02:15 »
Yet again, clearly identifying my target before pulling the trigger has paid off  ;D
"Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence" Cpl Jordan Anderson 1981-2007 RIP

When the going gets tough I take a nap...It's easier that way

Offline Unknown Factor

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 65
Re: JATF
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2005, 22:13:59 »
My $0.02! I think maybe too much attention is being given to the rumor that this Unit will be simular too or like a 'Ranger Bn', the reality I think would be that if it is going to be considered Tier II it would be more compareable to the Green Beret A-Teams. 'Go' mentioned that if they wanted a 'Ranger Bn' then quite practically the Army would call on one of it's 3 Lt Bn to do the job.   It isn't that they are not qualified to do the job but rather the fact that they are not the priority in the Army concept, thus no money no training/field/ammo, there is also a Regt reluctance to support light Bn's and this is clearly apparent in the fact that the light Bn's are not all jump qual.

As for selection to JATF, I wouldn't be getting your panties in a bunch over something that you, quite rightly, don't have control over.   I would think that they will look for (and get) the officers and NCO's from the Infantry (probably going to be a significant number from Light BN's) as well as from Mobility/support. As for Cpl/Pte's?, they will most likely come from everywhere in the CF, just like everything else that is run in the SF world - they'll teach you what they want you to know.   The strength of the leadership they select will determine the strength of the Unit, so most likely they will be looking for leadership ability vise course quals amoung leadership (though I'm sure it wouldn't hurt your chances).

As for the Bun fight between Bn's it gets old after awhile, though it is amusing at times!   Differences between the two in reality is that one trains heavily to perfect the basics and the other trains heavily within an advanced system and less on the basics.   But the J Coys are not higher trained soldiers within the light Bn's, they just hold the jump posn/task within that Bn.   They would be careful not to forget that their are more jump qual pers within their Bn's with far more experience than their own, enough can't be said for maturity. As for whole sale movement of Coy's from the Bn's is not very likely, one thing that seem's to be over looked here is that, even though everyone can agree that they will be running a selection, they all assume that there isn't going to be psych. eval or even a file review. News flash - they are not going to even tolerate disiplinary probs, if you've got one, I'm sure they'll show you the door. My suggestion is that you work to master the basics of light Inf tactics, stay in shape and keep an open mind. Good Luck!

Offline MikeH

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 550
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 302
Re: JATF
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2005, 22:20:02 »
Was there anything said about Reserve force platoons?Like back in the CAR days, just curious to know.
Vegetarian.. ancient word for poor hunter....My grandfather was on JUNO beach to helped crush the Nazi's. Now it's my turn to help crush Terrorism.

Offline Unknown Factor

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 65
Re: JATF
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2005, 22:56:15 »
Was there anything said about Reserve force platoons?Like back in the CAR days, just curious to know.

I would imagine that something along those lines in the distant future may be a reality, but you'd think that it would be primarily to retain trained tier II pers. But if it costs as much as we think it does just to maintain a reg. SF Unit it is probably twice that, so find the justification of maintaining a res. SF Unit since standards will have to be up-kept.  I imagine that at the point they are at in the stand up process this is the last thing on their minds and as nothing has been mentioned as to the make-up and selection of the JATF same goes for a reserve element.

Offline Mark C

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 431
  • Ask me about my amazing weight-loss programme!!
Re: JATF
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2005, 00:20:22 »
Whoa!  Me thinks that there is way too much testosterone and negative unit rivalry surfacing hereabouts.  Please take it off-line fellas. 

At the end of the day, JATF will determine its selection process, and all and sundry will be welcome to apply.  It has been clearly stated in public-access CANFORGENS that the initial draft will be largely combat arms, and from that largely infantry.  No great suprise, as those skills form the foundation that the new unit will expand upon.  Does it matter which battalion(s) those selection graduates happen to come from?  Not a whit.  What matters is that the standard is met.  I'm no expert, but common sense dictates that selection won't all revolve around basic fitness and infantry soldier skills.  There will undoubtedly be other criteria for which none of the applicants have been specifically trained.  That is all part of the selection challenge and the fun. 

Enough of the conjecture.  Will the initial intake be largely targeted at "known quantities" within the light infantry battalions?  Most likely, given that this is where the largest quantity of "known" folks reside.  By "known" I mean soldiers who are known to the JATF leadership by virtue of their former service in JTF2 or the CAR.  Let's face it - the LIBs are where most ex-CAR and ex-JTF2 personnel ended/end up when then are forced (or choose) to take a "time out" for PD purposes. 

Does the above preclude the keen/fit members of mech inf battalions or the other Cbt Arms units from applying?  I think not.  The sheer numbers and specialist skills required to stand-up the new 700+ unit by APS 07 are such that all and sundry will be welcome to apply.  I simply stands to reason that the bulk of "Direct Action" troops will be culled from the infantry, and specifically the LIBs.  No big surprise there.  We all know that there is also plenty of applicable expertise resident within the mech infantry battalions, along with the CERs, RCHA Regts, and perhaps even the Armd Regts.  Given the demand for suitable bodies, I am sure that all will be welcome to apply - along with the requisite numbers of CS and CSS trades.  The call for "purple" troops (eg.  non-Army) will presumably come later.

All of the above to say that dick-measuring and "sword fighting" is awfully premature at this point.  Nobody honestly knows what the JATF will be looking for, nor from where.  We can make some educated guesses, but that remains conjecture.  As I said before, this is one where interested parties will simply have to suck it up and watch and shoot.  If you think you have the parts, then start training yesterday.  If you have the wind left over to rumour-monger, then you are not training hard enough.  If you are a "WALT" and just want to gab about the unknown, then by all means carry on....elsewhere.

The facts regarding JATF selection will be made known soon enough.  In the interim, prospective applicants may wish to step up their PT and basic soldier skills just a notch. 

I'm out of the running, but based on common sense and experience I'm just saying.....

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 342,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,686
    • The Regimental Rogue
Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2005, 17:36:19 »

The new special operations unit will be called the Canadian Special Operations Regiment.  The first direct action company to be created early in 2006, with a training cycle from 1 April to 31 July.  Primary manning of this company (strength about 170, IIRC) at first will be about 80% from 3 RCR and 10% each from PPCLI and R 22eR. Openings across the Army, any trade positions, will occur on future expansion to unit/bn/regt size.


Offline Infantry_

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 60
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 358
  • Infantry
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2005, 17:44:48 »
I'm just curious on where you heard this... and this instead of JTF or is this to go with JTF?
Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge hammer.
- Major Holdridge

Only the dead have seen the end of war
   -Plato

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 342,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,686
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2005, 17:48:49 »
It's from a reliable source, who assured me it was open information.

Offline Rider Pride

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 29,358
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,823
  • Easy to draw, hard to spell
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2005, 17:56:35 »
sounds like the same info I heard.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline Infantry_

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 60
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 358
  • Infantry
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2005, 18:03:06 »
Do you know if reservist can apply, IE) Go full time with this kinda like JTF or is it just Reg? Also do you know any more details like is it early 2006 or later, also how many members will be in this unit?
Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge hammer.
- Major Holdridge

Only the dead have seen the end of war
   -Plato

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 304,896
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,184
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2005, 18:05:28 »
Quote
at first will be about 80% from 3 RCR

*rubs hands*

Hope they need more troops, would love to slide in there.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 342,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,686
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2005, 18:06:10 »
Do you know if reservist can apply, IE) Go full time with this kinda like JTF or is it just Reg? Also do you know any more details like is it early 2006 or later, also how many members will be in this unit?

It'll be battalion sized once done. No news heard on Reserve oportunities.

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 208,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,789
SOC = Special Operations Capable

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 208,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,789
I think they should have gone with Special Service Regiment (SSR).  It hints of SAS and of SSF.

Offline Mark C

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 431
  • Ask me about my amazing weight-loss programme!!
Does it really matter what the new SOC unit is called?  Does it really matter what colour hat they wear?  It is a burgeoning military "capability", not a frat-house.  Nor is it (hopefully) a unit that will suffer "Walts" lightly.

Really, some of you posting/trolling in this thread seriously need to extricate your heads from your "nintendo-ninja-sniper-wannabe" anal orifices.....  ::)

The new unit will stand up on an incremental basis that respects the Army's other "managed readiness" tasks.  That much is a given and has been firmly announced.  The first DA Coy will be based on the NEO-tasked coy of 3 RCR.  They are already in Pet, and their tasking therefore makes emminent sense.  More to follow, as the remainder of the infantry field force cycles out of their various high-readiness tasks over the next several years.  It isn't exactly rocket-science as to how the new unit is going to stand up in light of other demands currently placed upon the Cbt Arms units of the Army......

Man, the rumours, innueudo and heresay that pervade this forum truly slay me.  If I had a nickel for every bull-crap theory that has been put forth to date, I'd be a very rich guy.....

Let the CSOR stand-up run it's course.  Speak to what you know.  Sum up if you don't have a clue.  We will all be better off if everyone stays within their respective lanes....

FWIW,


Offline Spr.Earl

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 235
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,719
  • Grizzled Old Veteran
Re: JATF
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2005, 04:24:02 »
The creation of CANSOFCOM and the subordinate JATF are definitely moving ahead at a rapid rate, as indicated by the announcement of Comd and RSM appointments for both organizations.   CANSOFCOM is to be functional by Feb 06, as is the case with CEFCOM, etc.   The officer and Sr NCO leadership of JATF will stand-up in APS 06, with the bulk of the unit postings occurring between APS 06 and 07.   

The creation of JATF is not a "smoke and mirrors" excercise.   The new unit is a high-priority capability that will definitely be formed sooner rather than later.   Unfortunately, in the short term this will undoubtedly occur at the expense of manpower within the existing Cbt A units - specifically the nine infantry battalions.   The experienced soldiers for the JATF (which will have an establishment larger than any existing battalion) have to come from somewhere.   Starting with the several hundred officers and Sr NCO positions that are designated to be filled by next summer.

It will be interesting to see if our problematic recruiting system can increase national intake and throughput to alleviate the resultant manpower shortage that the stand-up of the JATF will create within existing units.   Not to sound pessimistic, but I harbour serious doubts given the fact that the system cannot even recruit to meet attrition, let alone bring our exisitng units up to authorized strength.   I predict that some of our existing units (eg.   those in "low readiness") will be reduced to skeleton organizations.   The current manning shortfalls cannot help but get worse before they get better.   

There is detailed information regarding precise personnel numbers, unit composition and IOC/FOC timelines floating around on the DIN for those who have access and know who to ask.   Since that information it is not "open source", OPSEC precludes its dissemination here.   I for one, will not divulge any further information regarding the JATF and would caution others with that info to do the same.   Details of the JATF application and selection process will be released in further CANFORGENs as events unfold.   Once released in the public domain, I am sure that the information will find its way here.   Until then, I would suggest that rampant speculation regarding the new unit is utterly pointless and potentially counter-productive.        

All things considered, despite the inherent manning challenges associated with the creation of CANSOFCOM and the JATF this is an exciting capability development for our Army.   Once again, we are about to have a highly trained battalion-sized organization that the fittest and keenest soldiers can aspire to without having to possess the very specific attributes required for service in JTF 2.                  

Mark C your mention of man power is as I see it a key issue and relies on increased recruiting to replace those who choose to go over but with the problem of retention in all arms can it be done and sustained?
With the Engineers now a 30 day release is no more,it has been increased to 6 months.
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




UBIQUE
Be Safe

Offline Dog

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 223
  • NOT a bounty hunter.
Re: Canadian Special Operations Regiment
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2005, 05:47:14 »
The new special operations unit will be called the Canadian Special Operations Regiment.  The first direct action company to be created early in 2006, with a training cycle from 1 April to 31 July.  Primary manning of this company (strength about 170, IIRC) at first will be about 80% from 3 RCR and 10% each from PPCLI and R 22eR. Openings across the Army, any trade positions, will occur on future expansion to unit/bn/regt size.



This might explain why I've seen so many people who've just got the call to go to basic, heading off to the RCR? That would make sense, try to stop the bleeding before it really starts by shifting the new recruits over to the units that are going to be hemorrhaging personnel.
Violence must be eradicated,... kill all the violent people you know.