Author Topic: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society  (Read 403776 times)

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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1075 on: October 18, 2019, 12:34:39 »
Can you really not differentiate between a attending a funeral or memorial, where the purpose is to commemorate one or more fallen, from attending church, where the purpose is participation in religious ceremony/rite?  Others can't distinguish a religious event from a community event with religious/cultural injects reflective of the participants? And do people really believe some of the slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations in this thread? The next step after not attending church as a regiment is to cast off uniforms?  Really?

Anyway, this thread is about a reserve brigade's decision and one of the arguments in this thread is that the parades are about connecting with communities. If we are going to spend Class A days on a parade, lets spend those Class A days on a military parade out in the public where all members of the community can see and connect with the activity.  Let's not waste those days hidden away being sermonized in church parade which will only ever be noticed by an ever shrinking segment of the population that happens to have the correct religious affiliation.

You’re choosing to single out only one element of the issues raised, while simultaneously disregarding the connections between the significance of such a move and the optics of a (seemingly) rogue brigade—a brigade that is now accumulating a bit of a list of instances where they’ll (very publically) do what they want apart from the standards of the rest of CAF. Whether the “slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations” mentioned actually come to fruition or not isn’t the point.

Narrowing the field of focus to one minute viewpoint rather than observing the entirety of the issue is a problem. This is significantly more than just “a reserve brigade’s decision.” (That makes it sound as though you’re deducting the weight of this down to something as benign as stating the brigade will no longer include cheese in box-lunches.) Again, one of the major points of all of this is that it’s an example of a major alteration to the way things have been done (and expected) CAF-wide. Whether anyone reading personally agrees or disagrees with military presence/parades/participation in churches really isn’t the point.

Even if one doesn’t agree with the possibility of specific agendas at play by snr cmd which were mentioned, there’s still a very problematic bigger picture forming here and it can affect components some people haven’t even thought of. A quick example?  Let’s look at the band. (yes, yes, I’m well aware some don’t give two shits about the band—anywhere—not the point.) It’s steeped in tradition and purpose and has its place among all types of services, ceremonies and parades alike and always has. But the majority of pers aren’t aware of just how many of their Regimental pieces and marches are directly taken from hymns--either in their entirety or mere excerpts. The majority of the tunes are wholly religious, mostly taken from Christian British composers throughout history. So in the spirit of what’s been expressed by some here, it’s important we do away with them completely—there’s no place for any type of Christian affiliation among CAF tradition in any form, right?       
”You don’t have a right to the cards you believe you should have been dealt. You have an obligation to play the hell out of the ones you’re holding. ”
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“The aim of argument, or of discussion should not be victory, but progress.”~Joseph Joubert

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1076 on: October 18, 2019, 12:38:02 »
Quote
When this bleeding war is over;
No more soldiering for me.
When I get my civvy clothes on,
Oh! How happy I shall be.
No more church parades on Sundays,
No more asking for a pass.
We can tell the Sergeant Major
To stick his passes up his arse!

http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/english/whenthis.htm

Circa WW1   ;D ;D ;D
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline BeyondTheNow

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”You don’t have a right to the cards you believe you should have been dealt. You have an obligation to play the hell out of the ones you’re holding. ”
~Cheryl Strayed

“The aim of argument, or of discussion should not be victory, but progress.”~Joseph Joubert

Offline mariomike

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1078 on: October 18, 2019, 13:12:29 »
Quote
When this bleeding war is over;
No more soldiering for me.
When I get my civvy clothes on,
Oh! How happy I shall be.
No more church parades on Sundays,
No more asking for a pass.
We can tell the Sergeant Major
To stick his passes up his arse!

Quote
MARKO
                              (yelling)
                         AT EASE!

                                     HOFFY
                         Break it off, boys! At ease for the
                         news!

               The ruckus subsides.

                                     MARKO
                         Today's Camp News!
                              (reading)
                         Father Murray announces that due to
                         local regulations the Christmas
                         midnight Mass will be held at seven
                         in the morning!

                                     STOSH
                         You can tell Father Murray to --

                                     MARKO
                         At ease! He also says, quote: All
                         you sack rats better show up for the
                         services and no bull from anybody.
                         Unquote. At ease!

 :)
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1079 on: October 18, 2019, 13:48:23 »
That's what you need in the army.

https://youtu.be/B9PV-smPTds?t=901
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1080 on: October 18, 2019, 15:03:39 »
That's what you need in the army.

https://youtu.be/B9PV-smPTds?t=901

And don’t let him find you wearing your hat in the Mess!
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline MCG

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1081 on: October 18, 2019, 16:21:22 »
... there’s still a very problematic bigger picture forming here and it can affect components some people haven’t even thought of. A quick example?  Let’s look at the band. (yes, yes, I’m well aware some don’t give two shits about the band—anywhere—not the point.) It’s steeped in tradition and purpose and has its place among all types of services, ceremonies and parades alike and always has. But the majority of pers aren’t aware of just how many of their Regimental pieces and marches are directly taken from hymns--either in their entirety or mere excerpts. The majority of the tunes are wholly religious, mostly taken from Christian British composers throughout history. So in the spirit of what’s been expressed by some here, it’s important we do away with them completely—there’s no place for any type of Christian affiliation among CAF tradition in any form, right?   
There's one of those slippery slopes. Nobody is stretching the argument to say that things with long lost religious origins should be thrown away. That's a strawman. You can't defend any need for compelling the members of the regiment to go be lectured on Jesus, so you make the argument about something else. You make it about something nonsensical that is easy to dismiss.  But the nonsensical strawman is not what this is about.

Wearing military uniforms is fine.
Maintaining old regimental marches is fine.
Attending funerals is fine.
Attending public ceremonies with religious/cultural injects that reflect participating audiences is fine.
Compelling the members of a regiment to attend a church for the purpose of observing a Christian religious service is not fine.
Compelling the members of a regiment to attend a mosque for the purpose of observing an Islamic religious service is not fine.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1082 on: October 18, 2019, 16:30:15 »
https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/11956555/The_Abolition_of_Compulsory_Church_Parades_in_the_British_Army.pdf

Quote
The compulsory church parade was one of the oldest traditions in the British army, dating back to the
seventeenth century. In 1946, shortly after the end of the Second World War, the practice was abolished.

This was a significant moment in Army–Church relations since the compulsory attendance of soldiers at
divine worship had been an official acknowledgement of the importance of religion as a guiding force in the
corporate life of the army. This article explores the background to this historic decision and the unsuccessful
efforts of senior officers in the late 1940s to restore the ritual.

In the name of Christ, can't we move on?

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline FJAG

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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1084 on: October 18, 2019, 17:08:55 »
There's one of those slippery slopes. Nobody is stretching the argument to say that things with long lost religious origins should be thrown away. That's a strawman. You can't defend any need for compelling the members of the regiment to go be lectured on Jesus, so you make the argument about something else. You make it about something nonsensical that is easy to dismiss.  But the nonsensical strawman is not what this is about.

Wearing military uniforms is fine.
Maintaining old regimental marches is fine.
Attending funerals is fine.
Attending public ceremonies with religious/cultural injects that reflect participating audiences is fine.
Compelling the members of a regiment to attend a church for the purpose of observing a Christian religious service is not fine.
Compelling the members of a regiment to attend a mosque for the purpose of observing an Islamic religious service is not fine.

Second paragraph agreed. Wholeheartedly. (But I’ll again reiterate a point raised by multiple users that in conjunction with members not being forced to attend, then CAF also can’t force members NOT to attend.)

Ref the “strawman”—Unfortunately mankind has a pretty lengthy history of anecdotal evidence during various scenarios where situations of what many initially thought were implausible and largely ridiculous circumstances ended up staring them right in the face, even military/defence related—Simple policy issues to full-out combat specific. So I haven’t much faith in humanity’s ability to know when to draw the line in some instances. If the right (or wrong) people get into a position of power, can push their agendas, and they have the support of many, and/or are surrounded by those who don’t check them, then all too often trying to undo the damage once they’re through is almost impossible. (But I digress—this could easily turn into a politics thread.)

My point is simple; we all do it, or we don’t. This is a position that should’ve been properly weighed then executed equally if all were in agreement across the board. And has been clearly mentioned, CAF can’t show support for some religious practices and not others. Especially, again, when it’s only one part of CAF choosing to do something very visibly (and questionable by CAF and outsiders alike) on their own, then leaving the individual units to conduct clean-up and take the hits of negative press and instances of community discourse.
”You don’t have a right to the cards you believe you should have been dealt. You have an obligation to play the hell out of the ones you’re holding. ”
~Cheryl Strayed

“The aim of argument, or of discussion should not be victory, but progress.”~Joseph Joubert

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1085 on: October 18, 2019, 17:19:48 »
Just one more  --- and because you started this particular one just above.  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK4p7tbwv1w

 :cheers:

 ;D ;D ;D :cheers:
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline Bread Guy

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1086 on: October 18, 2019, 17:48:01 »
In the name of Christ, can't we move on?
I think I see what you did there ...
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1087 on: October 19, 2019, 12:27:08 »
I like where the Chaplain asks the men, "Was this trip necessary?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrnB1OMhETI
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline FJAG

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1088 on: October 19, 2019, 12:40:06 »
That raised an interesting memory.  Many years ago, when still with the artillery (early 1970s while Vietnam was still a thing), I signed up for the US Army Advanced Artillery Officer's extension course. Every week or so I would receive a package in the mail from Fort Sill providing me with another study module. One of those was on the US Army Chaplain Corps and the left me with the clear impression that one of the major purposes of the Corps was to instill the will to fight as much as it was to bring God to the soldier. I think that has been toned down a bit but my impression at the time was that the Corps was just one of the tools that a Commander had at his disposal to advance the mission.

 :cheers:
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces
« Reply #1089 on: October 19, 2019, 12:55:40 »
One of those was on the US Army Chaplain Corps and the left me with the clear impression that one of the major purposes of the Corps was to instill the will to fight as much as it was to bring God to the soldier. I think that has been toned down a bit but my impression at the time was that the Corps was just one of the tools that a Commander had at his disposal to advance the mission.

 :cheers:

That was always my impression. Above all else, keep the wheels rolling.

Since the title of this discussion is "& in Canadian Society", where I worked they always had a departmental Chaplain. Still do, but a lot of the pep talks have been taken over by the staff psychologist since the early 1980's.

Seemed to me the only difference was one gave you a cigarette, the other gave you a cookie.  :)
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline TheAeronaut

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1090 on: April 08, 2020, 19:55:37 »
I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.
I've seen the same at a Mosque. In fact, I was the tour guide for a Jewish group when we held an "open house" in a Mosque in Toronto after the Quebec mosque shooting. Many of them kept their kippahs on. You would be required to take your shoes off ONLY in the areas where people pray, since the Islamic prayer involves touching your head to the floor. I'm sure you, too, wouldn't touch your face where someone else stood with their dirty shoes.

Quote
Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?
Everyone would be required to dress modestly, but covering the head would be optional. Again, we regularly entertain women at Mosques who do not don headwear. The PM's companions probably did so out of respect and/r for the public outreach.

Quote
I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)
Sir, I invite you to visit your local Mosque with your family and friends at your earliest convenience (once COVID dies out). We would be happy to have you and clear up your misunderstandigs. Here's a tip: show up on a Friday night and you'll get probably get a free meal out of it. Hope you can handle your spicy Biryani!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 19:59:14 by ACE_Engineer »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1091 on: April 08, 2020, 20:13:42 »
Here's a tip: show up on a Friday night and you'll get probably get a free meal out of it. Hope you can handle your spicy Biryani!

Two thumbs up to that! Great food, and very welcoming people...  :nod:
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —