Author Topic: Ch-146 Griffon  (Read 131796 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NFLD Sapper

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 283,481
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,067
  • CFSME STAFF
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #200 on: January 04, 2018, 17:07:18 »
I understand they no longer recce the underside of the Confederation bridge...

No but they buzz us at Swan Lake....
CHIMO!
First in, Last out
Sappers Lead the Way

Just tell your wife she owes your life to some Muddy Old Engineer,
Some dusty, crusty, croaking, joking Muddy Old Engineer

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,697
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #201 on: January 04, 2018, 22:07:41 »
I understand they no longer recce the underside of the Confederation bridge...

Too bad really.  The navigation span is absolutely high enough for this type of flying.   ;D
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,605
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,964
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #202 on: February 25, 2018, 16:49:28 »
Too bad really.  The navigation span is absolutely high enough for this type of flying.   ;D

Heck, you could even fit the SGOD underneath that thing? ;D

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,697
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #203 on: February 25, 2018, 20:21:23 »
The navigation span is 60m or so...ya!  Doubt anyone would notice that itty bitty plane if it was tried... 8)
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Ashkan08

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #204 on: August 24, 2018, 19:10:33 »
Shouldn't we be looking to purchase a gunship like the Viper or Apache to escort the Griffons and Chinooks when they are on operations such as the ones in Mali?

Online YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 24,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 729
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2018, 19:31:40 »
The Griffon is the escort.  And yes, it would be nice to have proper rotor wing attack aircraft.  Now just consider that phrase 'attack aircraft'.  Can you imagine our current government actually agreeing to purchase a machine that is exclusively designed for killing?  Not a chance.  Be happy they allow the Griffon.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,697
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2018, 19:38:30 »
Be happy they allow don't know we have helicopters like the Griffon.

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Ashkan08

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2018, 19:48:02 »
The Griffon is the escort.  And yes, it would be nice to have proper rotor wing attack aircraft.  Now just consider that phrase 'attack aircraft'.  Can you imagine our current government actually agreeing to purchase a machine that is exclusively designed for killing?  Not a chance.  Be happy they allow the Griffon.
You have a point there.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 112,469
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,022
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #208 on: August 25, 2018, 05:12:58 »
The Griffon is the escort.  And yes, it would be nice to have proper rotor wing attack aircraft.  Now just consider that phrase 'attack aircraft'.  Can you imagine our current government actually agreeing to purchase a machine that is exclusively designed for killing?  Not a chance.  Be happy they allow the Griffon.

That's why instead of calling it an "attack helicopter" you call it an "armed reconnaissance helicopter"

Like the Tiger ARH:


Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 173,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,121
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #209 on: August 25, 2018, 08:47:58 »
That's why instead of calling it an "attack helicopter" you call it an "armed reconnaissance helicopter"

Like the Tiger ARH:


You mean the (paraphrased from folks familiar with that airframe) "useless piece of crap"?   :nod:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/defence-chooses-to-repair-rather-than-replace-grounded-helicopters/news-story/3e34e5f7d0a641b78db0806d69c01319
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,605
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,964
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2018, 12:53:59 »
Yeah, they never really wanted the Tiger...specs adjusted to fit the machine, vice the Apaches they were aiming for.  That said, the French seem to operate the Tiger quite effectively.

Regards
G2G

Offline Ashkan08

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2018, 13:02:04 »
You mean the (paraphrased from folks familiar with that airframe) "useless piece of crap"?   :nod:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/defence-chooses-to-repair-rather-than-replace-grounded-helicopters/news-story/3e34e5f7d0a641b78db0806d69c01319

Although the Tiger isn't the best ( armed reconnaissance helicopter) helicopter available, it would still be adequate for the operations we are currently in. It has been tested in Mali by both Germany and France and seems to have been quite effective.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 13:22:41 by Ashkan08 »

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 71,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,479
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2018, 13:36:49 »
Do the Griffons in Mali have FN M3M GAU-21 .50 Cal machine guns in each door, or just in one with C-6 in other? Hope not dumb question, assume no M-134 Dillon miniguns:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mali-helicopters-un-mission-1.4627507



Photo from this official RCAF tweet, sure seems to highlight firepower:
https://twitter.com/RCAF_ARC/status/1023944178764529665

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 14:04:25 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,605
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,964
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2018, 18:07:20 »
The load out can vary, but often when dissimilar weapons are used, the section aircraft will often mirror each other to ensure full azimuthal type coverage within the formation, ie. Lead GAU port, Dillon starboard, #2 Dillon port, GAU starboard.  If no Dillon, a C6 often complements the GAU.  Specific TTPs vary, and something not likely to be referred to in detail here.

Regards
G2G

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 20,485
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 910
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2018, 21:12:04 »
If a replacement utility helicopter was purchased, what's a good type to replace it with? A direct replacement for the utility role vice some other role.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 21:43:41 by Underway »

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 919,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,169
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2018, 21:30:21 »
If a replacement utility helicopter was purchased, what's a good type to replace it with?  I'm looking at a direct replacement for the utility role.

Something that can carry an infantry section along with door guns? The Griffon seems to only be able to pick guns or troops, and at max weight its got awfully short legs, which is fine if we only plan on fighting an hour or so away from the airfield.

Offline Ashkan08

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 56
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2018, 21:45:24 »
If a replacement utility helicopter was purchased, what's a good type to replace it with?  I'm looking at a direct replacement for the utility role.
The Sikorsky Black Hawk would be nice. Can almost hold double the weight the Griffon can.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 140,710
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,410
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2018, 22:18:41 »
Even a USMC style "upgrade" would help.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,605
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,964
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #218 on: August 26, 2018, 10:39:06 »
As a NATO/Like-minded-nation doctrinally compliant "UTTH", the UH-60, UH-1Y or H725.

That said, in the "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" department, the Griffon isn't necessarily a bad machine for the most part, and it was a huge improvement over the Twin Huey.  You'll have a very hard time finding anyone who flew both the CH-135 and the CH-146, say they take the 135...unless of course they were supporting a small-scale airshow at a reunion of Viet Nam vets at the time, and seeing a few hundred vets come up and hug the chopper with tears of appreciation in their eyes...year, maybe then, as an exception.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 10:49:13 by Good2Golf »

Offline OceanBonfire

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 119
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #219 on: January 26, 2019, 20:02:43 »
Quote
The Griffon Limited Life-Extension (GLLE) project





January 26 2019 – Ottawa, Ontario – National Defence / Canadian Armed Forces

As outlined in Canada’s defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada is making investments to re-capitalize and extend the life of equipment to ensure our women and men of the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) have the equipment they need to fulfill the Canadian Armed Forces’ (CAF) core missions.

In support of this, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Multiculturalism Andy Fillmore, on behalf of Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan, announced today that Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited will be undertaking design work to extend the life of Canada’s fleet of 85 CH-146 Griffon helicopters to at least 2031.

The first phase of this life extension is the definition phase, during which Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited – the original equipment manufacturer – will develop design changes to upgrade the helicopter’s avionics systems, engines, and cockpit displays, and integrate sensor systems.

This definition work, valued at up to $90 million (including taxes), will be performed under the existing support contract for the CH-146, which was awarded to Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited in 2011. The overall scope of the Griffon Limited Life Extension project is estimated to be valued at approximately $800 million (taxes included).

The Griffon, Canada’s multi-purpose utility helicopter, is essential to CAF operations both at home and abroad. The helicopter fills a number of functions, including tactical troop transport, reconnaissance, escort and surveillance, casualty evacuation, disaster relief, special operations aviation support, and search and rescue.

Upgrading the CH-146 will ensure that it continues to make important contributions to the success of the full range of the CAF’s missions and operations.

https://www.facebook.com/NationalDefenceGC/posts/325599258065229

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2019/01/government-of-canada-invests-in-the-modernization-of-the-royal-canadian-air-forces-ch-146-griffon.html
Recruiting Center: Montreal
Regular/Reserve: Regular Force
Officer/NCM: Officer (DEO)
Occupation choice: Logistics Officer
Current application: March 28, 2017
CFAT: Previously completed in November 2011
Interview: July 11, 2017
Medical: August 2017
Competition list: October/November 2017
Position Offered: May 25, 2018
Swearing In: August 21, 2018
BMOQ: August 25, 2018
BMOQ Graduation: November 16, 2018

Online YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 24,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 729
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2019, 22:06:16 »
800 million dollars to upgrade 85 aircraft is absolutely insane. The newest airframe is 20 years old.   We could replace them with brand new Black Hawks for very little more or if you prefer, more airbuses and have a far superior aircraft that is good until at least 2040.     

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 919,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,169
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2019, 22:26:52 »
Especially if they still cant make it be able to carry an infantry section of 8 with rucks when it's full of fuel...

Offline HappyWithYourHacky

  • Member
  • ****
  • 7,655
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 139
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2019, 22:49:13 »
Especially if they still cant make it be able to carry an infantry section of 8 with rucks when it's full of fuel...

Or more than one critically ill patient in SAR.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 140,710
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,410
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #223 on: January 27, 2019, 02:19:45 »
what is the engine upgrade?

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 43,560
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,651
Re: Ch-146 Griffon
« Reply #224 on: January 27, 2019, 09:43:14 »
what is the engine upgrade?

From the above link; " Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited will be undertaking design work to extend the life of Canada’s fleet of 85 CH-146 Griffon helicopters to at least 2031."

"The first phase of this life extension is the definition phase, during which Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited – the original equipment manufacturer – will develop design changes to upgrade the helicopter’s avionics systems, engines, and cockpit displays, and integrate sensor systems."

From the 10.01.2018 issue of the Canadian Defence Review:

"GRIFFON LIMITED LIFE EXTENSION PROJECT

The GLLE project will extend the life of the CH-146 Griffon beyond the current Estimated Life Expectancy so that the aircraft can continue to be operationally relevant and remain a vital contributor to the readiness of the Canadian Army and the Canadian Special Operations Force Command units well into the future.

The extension will bridge the gap until a replacement capability is acquired through the Tactical Reconnaissance Utility Helicopter project. GLLE aims to extend CH-146 operat­ing life to 2030+ through the replacement of obsolete avionics, instrumentation and displays with an integrated digital systems architecture. It may also include new digitally controlled engines as a package.

Flight simulators will also be modified to conform to the fleet. Finally, the project will ensure integrated logistic support, supply of initial spares and training. According to an April 2017 RCAF Director of Air Requirements (DAR) document, the preliminary estimate of the cost of GLLE ranges between $500 million to $1.5 billion."


Interesting, back in 2011, when the last contract for a CH-146 Griffon upgrade was awarded, the plan was to retire it in 2021.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark