Author Topic: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder  (Read 11370 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 204,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,617
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2006, 20:36:14 »
Not only did this idiot lie, he used Australia as a pawn to do so, and worst of all it's lying about an issue that is non-existent here in Aus.

There is no argument over our deployments in afghanistan, actually that's not true, there have been calls, from some factions in the moderate left in fact, that it hasn't been strong enough.

cobbler - you're in fair company.  He pulled the same stunt with President Karzai - claiming that Karzai agreed with him that a military solution was not the solution.  Bill Good challenged him on that on a call in show here in Vancouver and he was forced to admit that he neglected to mention that that was the only point of agreement that they had and that Karzai continued to stress the security needs as well as the humanitarian needs.   At the same time he chastises the Conservatives because even they say the war can't be won militarily (alone).

Jack has moved into my FOAD file for the irredeemably loony.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline warspite

  • Sworn enemy of squirrel's everywhere
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • -180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 342
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2006, 20:53:14 »
Personally I don't think the problem is that Canadians just don't care, but rather that we(I speak as a civilion) have all been brought up to have no faith in the armed forces, I have a distinct memory from grade three of me and many of my friends ridiculing the armed forces, (please forgive me for my sins, I have since learned the error of my ways and hope to serve proudly as soon as I can) but if in grade three kids are ridiculing the armed forces that trend is likely to continue, in my case I leared better and by now many of my friends no longer criticize the armed forces... but that may just be my influence. But I believe the problem is that these trends start young and unless corrected develop into an anti-military or uncaring attitude toward the armed forces.

Jacqueline

  • Guest
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2006, 21:42:04 »
This is what I intended to E-mail Mr. Layton, but it said that the service was unavailable right now. I will give him this:

Dear Mr. Layton
              I will be brisk and informing. I think you are making false statements about Australia withdrawing it's entire special forces from Afghanistan with deliberate intentions to deceive the people of Canada. I think you are twisting the truth and have lost the foothold of many including myself because of your repetitive trickiness.
            -Jacqueline Ford

Offline Nieghorn

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 210
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 70
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2006, 22:15:13 »
I must admit I was twice a NDP supporter, but mostly for the social and environmental policies I support.  I always said to my friend with whom I discuss politics and military affairs that their foreign policy and view for the Forces had me concerned.  Jack's most recent outburst has had me fall into a group, with one or two others who've posted on this site, who won't be supporting them any further.  I'd be echoing other's statements on here saying that I'm disgusted by his spin, so I'll leave it with that.  Despite my leftist leanings, as an historian and military buff, I've always been a keen supporter of our military past and present (odd, eh?).  His act is the final straw of my occasional support.  Shameful.

I'm also finding myself increasingly frustrated with the media and many Canadians' blindness to the facts, or at least disinterest in reading a more balanced account than what their local 6pm news tells them.  My parents watch this, and it seems with every death/attack the anchors bring up the 'controversy' and 'need for debate' and talk to someone who has no clue why we're there.  I've sworn never to tune in for one minute anymore for fear of my brain exploding.

I've made the effort to read a few different sources on our involvement and developments in 'the sand box' and think I have a fairly clear view, hence my support for efforts to crush those who'd prevent the people of Afghanistan from enjoying even just some of the freedoms we do.  It reeks of selfishness on the part of those Canadians who declare we should pull out, as all I can think is, "Do they not know how many innocent civilians will be killed as a result?"   Even if people don't support the initial cause (and Afgh is a much nobler than Iraq if they need any justification, given the Taliban regime's iron grip), they should at least support the need to see this one through until the end.  I think when this is over (and I certainly hope it's for the better), I think history will look on this as one of the successful forays into 'peacemaking' which might just make the world a little nicer for those people without the power to do it for themselves.  And as someone who's seriously considering a military career, who at least who cares deeply for his friends and family in the Forces, I think helping stabilize such a destitute nation is a worthy cause.

Offline pbi

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,725
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,962
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2006, 08:21:10 »
With the mentality of some people who sound off in this country (politicians, wannabes and otherwise...) I think we would have quit WWII right after Dieppe or Hong Kong. This is a gross-oversimplification, but the point I am making is that we seem to have lost sight of the idea that if you stand up to dangerous, determined and heavily armed people, somebody will get hurt. So, is the answer to stop standing up? I hope not.

Cheers

The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline Weinie

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 800
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 98
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2006, 08:53:32 »
  IMHO, and as disgusting as this may sound, I don't believe that Jack's motivations here are as apparent as some believe. Jack is trying to woo the undecided left and soft liberals ( most of whom are dovish) to his camp, and using the guise of Canadian troops out of Afghanistan as his lever. Every vote he receives translates into dollars for the party, and he has to increase his 18 ish percent of popular support at the next federal election, or risk losing the leadership of the party.  So Jack is being deceitful once more, as well as cynical and manipulative, but never idealistic. Realpolitik as policy.
"The Bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives."
- Admiral William Daniel Leahy (advising President Truman on the U.S. atom bomb project, 1945)

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 413,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 21,829
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2006, 09:25:58 »
Don't know if this is the best thread to tack this on to, but thought you'd enjoy!

 Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

Layton mulls trip to Afghanistan
Ian Bailey, CanWest News Service, 1 Oct 06
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=b7349ee8-226f-4c64-8b65-9f07ce673740

Federal NDP Leader Jack Layton, who wants Canada to pull its troops from Afghanistan, says he wants to visit the war-torn country to get a sense of the situation there.

But Layton told The Province during a trip to Vancouver that he does not need to have been to Afghanistan to be a credible critic of Canada's role there.

"I don't think credibility on the question of whether the mission is working depends on whether a person has the opportunity to be there," Layton said.

"If that was the case, then most Canadians would have to be absent themselves for the debate, and I don't accept that proposition."


Two of four federal party leaders in the House of Commons have been to Afghanistan where 2,200 Canadian soldiers are posted.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been. Bill Graham, interim leader for the Liberals, went twice while foreign affairs and defence minister in the former Liberal government.

Layton and Gilles Duceppe, leader of the Bloc Quebecois, have yet to visit.

Layton has called for Canadian troops to leave Afghanistan by next February, slamming the mission there as improperly planned to achieve peace.

The position, strongly endorsed by rank-and-file NDP members at the party's national convention early in September, has put the New Democrats odds with the other three parties in Parliament.

Thirty-seven soldiers and one Canadian diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002 the latest being Pte. Josh Klukie, from an Ontario-based regiment killed by an explosive device Friday while on patrol near Kandahar. Canada has been involved in reconstruction in Afghanistan and battling remnants of the Taliban and al-Qaida.

Layton said he was invited to Afghanistan by that country's president, Hamid Karzai, when the pair met during Karzai's recent trip to Canada.

"The timing of such a visit is something I'd like to discuss further with the Afghanistan officials and, of course, with our own Foreign Affairs officials here," he said.

Layton said, at this point, his office was working through logistics on the issue, but that he would, among other things, like to talk to elected officials in the country, aid groups, and Canadian troops.

Asked whether he was concerned about his own security, he replied: "Not any more than anybody else would be."

Layton has condemned the effort as a "George Bush-style counter-insurgency war" and called on Canada to pursue humanitarian aid, reconstruction and peace.

He called on Canada to declare it won't abandon Afghanistan, but will stop what isn't working.

"The goal of trying to help resolve conflicts in other than war fighting approaches is, I think, a uniquely Canadian goal in the world," he said.

ibailey@png.canwest.com

© CanWest News Service 2006
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Technoviking

    DANCE TO THE TECHNOVIKING.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 186,296
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,001
  • OBEY!
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2006, 10:15:15 »
Oh, I "DO" hope he goes.  It may actually open his eyes to the dangers of trying to rebuild and the folly of not trying to get the bad guys before they get you.
So, there I was....

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 35,990
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,975
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2006, 10:20:34 »
The little prick would probably leak his schedule to his friends in party hedquarters, which would almost certainly find its way into the hands of AQ and then the Taliban.   Sniper bait. Who the heck would want to be within 100 metres of him in theatre?
Living the lean life.

Online medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,244
  • In Arduis Fidelis
    • Fed By The Firehose
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2006, 10:23:15 »
That's one CP detail I'd never want to be on - pretty hard not to accidentally on purpose leave him in the middle of Panjwai or some other lovely place all by his lonesome.  Though, with our luck, I'm sure he'd find some way of talking his way out of an orange jumpsuit...

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 413,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 21,829
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2006, 10:28:25 »
The little prick would probably leak his schedule to his friends in party hedquarters, which would almost certainly find its way into the hands of AQ and then the Taliban.   Sniper bait. Who the heck would want to be within 100 metres of him in theatre?

Don't want to sound too disloyal, but "sniper bait" for which side?  >:D
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 212,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,948
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2006, 10:49:03 »
Don't want to sound too disloyal, but "sniper bait" for which side?  >:D

Who knows?  You do know this is not PC?  ;D
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Offline neko

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 86
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2006, 14:17:05 »
Oh, I "DO" hope he goes.  It may actually open his eyes to the dangers of trying to rebuild and the folly of not trying to get the bad guys before they get you.
This assumes he gets his head out of his *** long enough to see anything.
Seriously though I wonder why he wants to go, if of course he's not just giving lip service to the idea. Does he actually want to see firsthand what is going on and how it is working and provide support or campaign for better ways. Or does he just want to be able to say he has been there so his pull the troops line has more credibility. (not that credible and Layton belong in a sentence together)
I don't have a problem with caffeine. I have a problem without caffeine.

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 13,345
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 843
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2006, 17:17:48 »
The little prick would probably leak his schedule to his friends in party hedquarters, which would almost certainly find its way into the hands of AQ and then the Taliban.   Sniper bait. Who the heck would want to be within 100 metres of him in theatre?

Why would the Taliban want to take out Taliban Jack?  He's their best friend in Canada!

I think he'd have more to fear from the troops!  ;D
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 13,345
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 843
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2006, 17:22:07 »
Or does he just want to be able to say he has been there so his pull the troops line has more credibility.

I believe this is closer to the truth.  I'm sure Taliban Jack knows the truth of the situation in A'stan, but he's using this as a wedge issue to get the sizable, but ignorant anti-war crowd to support his party.

Quote
(not that credible and Layton belong in a sentence together)

Give the man a cigar!  ;D
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline Jed

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,101
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2006, 17:36:43 »
I would rather that we did not waste any tax payer's funds on sending 'Taliban Jack' to A'stan. Who really would want to be anywhere near wherever he was going ?

It is bad enough seeing his smiling face on TV let along having our troops seeing him over there. ( Just seeing his face and hearing his BS on the TV comes close to causing me a price of a replacement set after my coffee cup goes through it.)
As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

couchcommander

  • Guest
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2006, 20:02:32 »
For some reason the thought of him trying to address a crowd of soldiers... is amusing, really amusing. Q & A would be even better.

But seriously, he would have no intention of actually seeing what is going on. He'd visit the governor, then go to a school, then go visit some NGO's.... all the while protected by JTF2 and a couple of platoons worth of LAV's.

He'd come back and proclaim "For I have seen the promised land, and it doesn't need soldiers".

We could always hope timmy isn't thinking straight and bombs his convoy... not killing him, but close enough to singe his mustache and rattle that little peanut around enough to possibly have the thought "hey, maybe it's really not safe enough for NGO's to go running around without protection" go wizzing between his ears.

Ah, I can dream.

Offline neko

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 86
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2006, 22:15:49 »
I believe this is closer to the truth.  I'm sure Taliban Jack knows the truth of the situation in A'stan, but he's using this as a wedge issue to get the sizable, but ignorant anti-war crowd to support his party.

Sometimes I think he knows the truth, other times I'm not sure, it's possible he really does believe what he's saying. If he doesn't though, and it is just to garner support, then does he think his opposition to it will have no effect whatsoever to the mission. Or is he really such a jerk that he doesn't care if he and his cohorts bring about a change for the worse if they manage to completely undermine support for the mission?

Give the man a cigar!  ;D
If you're refering to me how about 'woman' instead? :)
(And could you make it a drink? I quit smoking) ;D
I don't have a problem with caffeine. I have a problem without caffeine.

Offline RangerRay

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 13,345
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 843
  • Kloshe Nanitch
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2006, 01:58:30 »
If you're refering to me how about 'woman' instead? :)

Oops!  I'm terribly sorry!  :-[
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline riot

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8
  • MEMENTO MORI
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2006, 06:38:22 »


The majority of Canadians simply "don't get it".  That is bizarre.  It is also frustrating.  But above and beyond that, it is foremost scary.  Sheep (as a nation) to the slaughter.....



After six years reg force and a couple of good tours, I'm now at University checking out this side. It's amazing the influence that uninformed people have. People that consider themselves informed! I would only say that it falls again to the people who truly love this country to solve the problem. Just like in Afghanistan, it's going to take education, now of both their and our masses. I can think of no one better than us to spread INTELLIGENT thought and hard fact.
"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" -Thucydides

Offline neko

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 86
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2006, 07:15:43 »
Oops!  I'm terribly sorry!  :-[
No worries, it's not like you were insulting me. 8)
I don't have a problem with caffeine. I have a problem without caffeine.

Offline neko

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 86
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2006, 08:21:43 »

I'm not bitter in the least.  I am simply distressed that the general Canadian public are so abjectly
 navel-gazing that the vast majority don't remember why we are in Afghanistan in the first place,

The average Canadian isn't living with this on a daily basis,  aside from whatever coverage the media
 deigns to give us on Afghanistan. Which often isn't very much. Yes people do forget, the terror of September 11th
 is gone, especially as it didn't happen here, but this 'forgetfullness'is an intrinsic coping mechanism,
 such as women quickly forgetting the pain of child birth. W would go insane if every pain and terror stayed
 foremost in our minds.
  What coverage there is tends to highlight the fallen and wounded soldiers, civilian deaths, and other
 negative aspects. There isn't much positive information out there, I've not heard much through the
media about the reconstruction, the freedom of some girls to go to school now, women being able to
 work again. It's a far off war in a far off land with no apparent relevance to Canada, and we are continually
 bombarded with the 'fact' that it is an impossible war to win. There's not much said about the need to keep
 the Taliban out so that it is not once again a safe refuge for terrorists, so that they have one less place to
 attack from.
Add to this the fact that it has been linked, erroneously yes, but nonetheless linked, with the war in Iraq.
 We have one whole party spouting off crap about it being the wrong mission for Canada, that they care
 for our soldiers and want to bring them home, and some moronic nitwits yapping about Africa and that
 we should be there instead. I know there are a lot of people who just don't care but there are also a lot
 who do trouble is we are ill-informed and misinformed. 

nor does the social collective have a clue we as a nation stand for.

 
This is sad. Some people I've talked to just don't see why we should help Afghanistan as "they are nothing to
 do with us,they don't live here, let them fight there own battles." Apparently the suffering of others
 and the fact we all share the same planet isn't important.
It sometimes makes me wonder what I've devoted my entire adulthood to.  26 years in the infantry,
and it seems that all I can do is preach to the converted.

It is on this site listening,( well reading technically) to soldiers that I have gained most of my information
 on the war in Afghanistan, the desire of soldiers to be there, their insights, their experiences,the good
that is being done. I wouldn't get the information elsewhere. Please keep preaching. :)
The majority of Canadians simply "don't get it".  That is bizarre.  It is also frustrating. 
But above and beyond that, it is foremost scary.  Sheep (as a nation) to the slaughter.....

Aside from alot of misinformation, there is also the desire to remain at peace and the lack of belief
 that others do not want the same thing. Most cannot conceive of people willing to go to war just to get rid
 of those who do not have the same religious beliefs. Or whatever other reasons that drive the extremists.

[/quote]
I don't have a problem with caffeine. I have a problem without caffeine.

Offline Boxkicker

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 210
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 91
Re: A reply to Taliban Jack from Friends DownUnder
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2006, 16:34:08 »
I have emailed Layton and several other NDP MP's and have never even had a P**S off in responce. I asked him to engage me with some sort of intelligent discussion along with Catherine Bell my local MP. it seems that with anyone who has some sort of dissenting opinion of his is not worth his time.
  Not to go off thread but at least Bob Rae took a principled stand on Israel and Hezbollah, and said Israel had the right to defend itself. I emailed him and even said I'd never vote for him and his office responded.
 Lets face facts the man is a WACK JOB, it does not help that our media is just as biased either. It is just to bad that we are not allowed to speak up. I would personally and publically love to offer him a cup of shut the **** up.
Peace is our desire. Honor and sacrifice our calling.