Author Topic: Pilot life after CF  (Read 28728 times)

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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2007, 17:57:30 »
Sorry, 421.40 (typo) ... I'm not saying that it is necessarily difficult to qualify for civvy equivalent ratings, just that they are different and T'port Canada has to review the applicant's DND hours and confirm that they meet the civvy standard (they employ people to do just this specifically).

That's no different than a civvie requesting a type rating. It's actually easier than you think. I know many people that have ATPLH licences but have very little solo flight time since all operational helos are two pilot (except the Kiowa guys back in the day). I only have about 10 hrs solo flight time in helos and that's all I'll ever get unless I get posted to helo school to fly Jet Rangers.

When I get the hour requirements and just before I do the Cyclone conversion course, I'll get my ATPLH with S61 rating. As soon as I've got a category on the Cyclone, I'll get an S92 type rating.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2007, 18:07:20 »
That's no different than a civvie requesting a type rating.
Yes I know that, but the requirements are different (which is what I was trying to convey in response to the original question).
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2007, 18:11:59 »
Yes I know that, but the requirements are different (which is what I was trying to convey in response to the original question).

What requirements?
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2007, 18:24:40 »
What requirements?
For type ratings.

e.g.
Quote
(iii) Skill

Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the rating, an applicant shall have successfully completed a qualifying flight under the supervision of a Transport Canada Inspector or a qualified person qualified in accordance with CAR 425.21(7)(a).


and

Quote
(iii) Skill

An applicant shall have passed a pilot proficiency check conducted in accordance with Part VII for that helicopter type within the 12 months preceding the application for the rating or passed a pilot proficiency check acceptable to the Minister for that helicopter type within 12 months preceding the application for the rating.
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(etc. ... the civilian requirements)

are not the same as

Quote
(4) Credits for DND Applicants

(a) Active and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are qualified to wings standard shall be deemed to have met the qualifying flight requirement specified in 3(c)(iii), 3(g)(iii), 3(k)(ii), and 3(l) above provided the applicant:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating, or
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) has qualified as pilot-in-command on the aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(b) Active and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are qualified to wings standard shall be deemed to have met the Pilot Proficiency Check requirement specified in 3(a)(iii), 3(b)(iii), 3(f)(iii),and 3(g)(ii) above provided the applicant:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating, or
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) has qualified as pilot-in-command on the aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
(military requirement)
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2007, 18:35:12 »
I see that, you're just pointing out that they're different?

Since we all upgrade to Aircraft Captain and requal every year, it seems to me that it's easier for a DND applicant to get the type rating.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2007, 19:13:43 »
Solo time isn't a requirment for ATPL, PIC time is.

Max

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2007, 19:16:09 »
As it turns-out, yes.  I didn't know exactly what the difference was, only that they were different, so I originally told the poster to check with T'port Canada (no one had responded to his question at that point).  You took the time to refer him to the CARs, so I checked them myself to make sure we were all on the same page (CPL & ATPL where it is really just a matter of number of hours, irrespective of source vs. type ratings where the requirement for military hours is somewhat different* (unless I am missing something)).

*Which you pointed-out that an active duty pilot should have no problem meeting ... thus, as it turns-out, for practical purposes the difference is not that great.   ::)
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Offline Ditch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2007, 19:48:37 »
ATPL's aside.

Transport Canada regulations are very clear on equivalent licenses/ratings.  As a multi-engine pilot with an unrestricted IRT, all I must do is write the PSTAR and score 80% on the test and I will receive my PPL.  If I wish to go further, I must write my CSTAR and again score 80% and then I would receive my Commercial, Multi-engine, IFR rating.

I could do this tomorrow with or without any PIC on type and gain such licenses.

I trust this answers the original posters question.
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2007, 21:13:06 »
ATPL's aside.

Transport Canada regulations are very clear on equivalent licenses/ratings.  As a multi-engine pilot with an unrestricted IRT, all I must do is write the PSTAR and score 80% on the test and I will receive my PPL.  If I wish to go further, I must write my CSTAR and again score 80% and then I would receive my Commercial, Multi-engine, IFR rating.

I could do this tomorrow with or without any PIC on type and gain such licenses.

I trust this answers the original posters question.


I have a Commercial Aeroplane licence and I gotta say, as far as written tests go, I've never heard of a CSTAR. PSTAR is a test to get a student pilot permit, PPAER is the written test to get a PPL. To get a CPL, you write the CPAER. For DND credit towards a CPL, you need to write the "Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures (ARPCO)", or the HARPC for a CPL-H.

You do need PIC time to get a multi rating, 50 hrs on type. For the instrument rating, you only need a valid, unrestricted IRT. Just got my unrestricted today.  ;D
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Offline Hippie

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2007, 21:29:36 »

You do need PIC time to get a multi rating, 50 hrs on type. For the instrument rating, you only need a valid, unrestricted IRT. Just got my unrestricted today.  ;D


Inch, if I'm reading what you typed correctly, you're saying that you need 50 hrs on type to get a multi rating?  Just checking my logbook, and I got my multi-engine rating on a BE-76 in 2001 with 9.5hrs Dual and 1.1hrs Solo (that being the ME flight test)

After my multi-IFR flight test, I had 23.8hrs Dual and 2.5hrs Solo (both flt tests)

Unless you mean you need 50 hrs BEFORE doing a multi rating..  ie. on single eng a/c...  OR if you're talking military time..  if that's the case, I'll find out after my Sea King OTU in 2019   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 21:37:59 by Hippie »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2007, 21:30:59 »
I think he means you need 50 hrs PIC on type before you can have your CPL.  PIC is NOT the same as Solo. 

Max

Offline Hippie

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2007, 21:43:49 »
PIC is NOT the same as Solo. 

Max

In my civie logbook the columns indicate "Dual" "PIC" "Co-pilot"  ; and in my mil logbook has the columns "Dual" and "Pilot" for SE ; and "Dual" "First Pilot" "Second Pilot" for ME...   so unless I ain't smokin' what you're rollin', PIC is the same as Solo..  Been wrong before tho!

Hippie
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 22:02:07 by Hippie »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2007, 21:46:29 »
In my books, PIC time is the time you are in charge of an aircraft.  In a multi-crew environment, that's the AC.  You have an FO, you are NOT solo and you still log it as First Pilot and you are the AC in the crew.

Max

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2007, 21:54:40 »
According to the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_38 (scroll down to 3 & 4) civvy applicants need to pass the prescribed test: mil applicants need i) at least 50 hours in the last 24 months, or ii) to have qualified in the last 24 months.

Quote
(3) Multi-engine Class Rating - Requirements

(a) Skill

An applicant for a multi-engine class rating shall complete a flight test to the standard outlined in the Flight Test Standard, Multi-Engine Class Rating.

(b) Credits for DND Applicants

Active and retired personnel of the Canadian Forces who are qualified to the pilot aeroplane wings standard shall be considered to have satisfied the skill requirements as set forth above provided that the applicant:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time as pilot-in-command in multi-engine aeroplanes during the 24 months preceding the date of application for the rating, or

(ii) has met the prescribed standards of the Canadian Forces to act as pilot-in-command of multi-engine aeroplanes during the 24 months preceding the date of application for the rating.
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Offline Hippie

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2007, 22:00:30 »
According to the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_38 (scroll down to 3 & 4) civvy applicants need to pass the prescribed test: mil applicants need i) at least 50 hours in the last 24 months, or ii) to have qualified in the last 24 months.


OK, that makes sense since I got my multi-IFR before entering the AF.

Hippie

Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2007, 05:30:29 »
Correct.

The difference is you had to do a TC ride to get your multi rating, as did I. Military applicants don't have to do a flight test to get it, they only need to meet the requirements as laid out by John_Galt.
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2007, 05:50:32 »
Hippie,

As you will learn at 406, Dual time is logged when you have a U/T category and while flying with a qualified MH Instructor, same as Moose Jaw and Portage. First Pilot time is logged when at the controls with a valid category on type, in your case, MH CoPilot (MHCP). 2nd Pilot time is logged by any pilot on the aircraft that is not at the controls. It doesn't count for anything so I don't even log it.

The difference between PIC and copilot time is where your name is in the two columns. Left column is for the aircraft captain, right column is for the cojo. If you didn't sign for the aircraft, your name shouldn't be in the left column.

When TC looks at your military logbook down the road, they'll be looking for when you were in the left column (PIC) and when there was no one in the right column (you were solo).

"At the controls" means sitting in the front seat, "in control" means actually flying.
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Offline Ditch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2007, 12:23:27 »
First Pilot time is logged when at the controls with a valid category on type, in your case, MH CoPilot (MHCP). 2nd Pilot time is logged by any pilot on the aircraft that is not at the controls...
..."At the controls" means sitting in the front seat, "in control" means actually flying.

Not quite true.  The Aircraft Captain can be sitting in the back (in the case of AAC rides) and still be accruing First Pilot, PIC time.

The short and the skinny of this entire post is as follows. (PSTAR and other CARs acronyms aside).

If you are a up and coming CF pilot and are tempted to go and get your civilian licenses/ratings, wait for your Wings.  You can save yourself $20,000 + (even higher if you get rotorhead training) by simply writing two very basic air regulations tests (PSTAR and Commercial version).  No flying required...
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Offline volition

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2007, 13:13:28 »
Exactly!!! ;D
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Offline Chou

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2007, 11:36:06 »
Thanks Zoomie, that clears it up for me. 

Offline flyboy140

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2007, 08:45:06 »
Your military flight time is definitely usable towards a civilian rating. I have flown for both the military and the airlines.  I started out as a military pilot and once I had enough hours I decided to get an ATPL.  I took a condensed ATPL exam prep course and then wrote the exam. My multi engine military instrument rating was accepted by Transport Canada and no flight test was required. So long as you maintain a military instrument rating, Transport Canada will continue to renew an IFR rating on a civilian licence. I am now on a leave of absence from the airlines and once again flying for the military and this is how I keep my civilian rating current.   

Offline Avro_Arrow_1976

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2007, 13:51:36 »
A guy at my unit just got out after 32 years, he flew Snowbirds, F5's, Single Huey's, Twin Huey's, Labs, Twin Otters, Muskateers (training) and a few other aircraft. He accumulated 5400 hrs over his 32 years and he is now a first officer with West Jet.