Author Topic: The Integrated Soldier System Project (ISSP)  (Read 70625 times)

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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2011, 17:08:12 »
True but if it is designed to carry plates then split front is not really an option.

That's something I'm wondering. Is the plan to move to the use of plate carriers and changing our SOP for PPE, or is the fact that this chest-rig has a plate pouch just a coincidence? Because like Anyone's grunt mentioned, wearing a plate carrier without plates causes sagging.

This Rig looks a lot like the SORD Chest rig to me, with a couple of modifications, and if it is, that pouch is intended for trauma plates.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 17:28:22 by Beadwindow 7 »
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Offline Lerch

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2011, 17:11:46 »
So...no plans for a canteen pouch? A bladder carrier on your back is all fine and dandy, but I don't know how I'd keep mine from freezing solid in the winters...ya know, when my thermos makes an appearance.
I'm just guessing that necessity items like that will have to paid out of pocket...

WRT the plates, the one article does mention that the rig is to be worn over our existing frag vest.
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Offline PatrickO

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2011, 17:26:34 »
Some of the ISSP documentation I've read so far have mentioned that ISSP items must be compatible with the existing Gallet helmet, ballistic eyewear and Frag vest - no mention was made of the tac vest at all, so it seems like the TV will eventually be fully replaced, at least for ISSP users.

The 30Mb document shows pictures of the MLCS vest and pouches.. what worries me is that the pouches are for the most part in the same places. I'm hoping that's just for demonstrating the layout. I really hope that these vests don't come with someone from DLR-5 saying that all our C7 Magazine pouches must be worn in a specific spot for "human factors" reasons...
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Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2011, 19:28:08 »
This Rig looks a lot like the SORD Chest rig to me, with a couple of modifications, and if it is, that pouch is intended for trauma plates.

The rig is in fact the SORD 'SCS Chest Rig Front' http://www.sordaustralia.com/details.php?catid=162&parentid=84&checkpage=1&oldpage=1 and the SORD 'SCS Chest Rig Back' http://www.sordaustralia.com/details.php?catid=165&parentid=84&checkpage=1&oldpage=1

I'd be surprised if the risk averse CF ever authorize the use of plate carriers rather than the current FPV with plates carried in it.  However, the plate pockets could be extremely useful to stow the Source Hydration 2L 'Low Profile System' (LPS) reservoir http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/outdoor.html#source2
-advantages of this is that it has a much more ergonomic shape so you can sit in a vehicle more comfortably, or wear your ruck or small pack while keeping your hydration system as part of your rig and it also reduces weight because you can ditch the 3L carrier.
-throw a 2L in the front plate pocket and a 2L in the back plate pocket and fill them about 3/4 full so you've got 1.5L in each which would give you 3L in total.  This now gives you a redundant system so that if one of your bladders gets damaged you still have hydration on your person.
-combine the LPS bladders with the Source 'Universal Tap Adaptor' (UTA) and you can refill the bladders without having to remove them from the rig
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/packs4.html#uta

Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2011, 19:48:02 »
My thoughts...


3) The drawing indicates a single waist adjustment strap centered in the panel.  This leaves the upper and lower corners free to sag and droop.  A simple solution would be to change to 2 straps, one on the extereme lower edge and one on the corner above it.  This change would lead to a more secure rig, less flop and droop.


This could be somewhat easily done as a non-permanent mod using field repair hardware, some extra 1" webbing, and some DIY ingenuity by the user.

Offline PatrickO

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2011, 20:02:04 »
Matt, I'm curious - the page was meant as an industry information site for bidders to the ISSP project. Is CPGear getting involved in this?
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Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2011, 20:11:05 »
Matt, I'm curious - the page was meant as an industry information site for bidders to the ISSP project. Is CPGear getting involved in this?

I wouldn't know as I haven't been involved with that organization since December 6th, 2010.

Cheers,

Matt

Offline PatrickO

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2011, 20:13:57 »
Ack - Sorry, I must have missed that memo  :P
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Offline Anyone's Grunt

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2011, 06:52:18 »
The rig is in fact the SORD 'SCS Chest Rig Front' http://www.sordaustralia.com/details.php?catid=162&parentid=84&checkpage=1&oldpage=1 and the SORD 'SCS Chest Rig Back' http://www.sordaustralia.com/details.php?catid=165&parentid=84&checkpage=1&oldpage=1

I'd be surprised if the risk averse CF ever authorize the use of plate carriers rather than the current FPV with plates carried in it.  However, the plate pockets could be extremely useful to stow the Source Hydration 2L 'Low Profile System' (LPS) reservoir http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/outdoor.html#source2
-advantages of this is that it has a much more ergonomic shape so you can sit in a vehicle more comfortably, or wear your ruck or small pack while keeping your hydration system as part of your rig and it also reduces weight because you can ditch the 3L carrier.
-throw a 2L in the front plate pocket and a 2L in the back plate pocket and fill them about 3/4 full so you've got 1.5L in each which would give you 3L in total.  This now gives you a redundant system so that if one of your bladders gets damaged you still have hydration on your person.
-combine the LPS bladders with the Source 'Universal Tap Adaptor' (UTA) and you can refill the bladders without having to remove them from the rig
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/packs4.html#uta

As this is a clear ripoff of a presumably patented design, does SORD have any legal recourse to prevent this rig from being contracted for manufacture by the CF?  If this was the MoFOCR, let's say, even though you are no longer associated with them, would CP Gear have grounds for legal action if this was done without their consent?  Is this patent infringement?

As for the plate carrier issue, some questions come to mind...

Are our plates rated as stand alone plates?  That is, can they be worn without a soft armor backing?  If not, then some changes need to be made.  I see one of three routes being taken.

1) Procure new plates that are rated as stand alone;
2) Procure a special cut of soft armor to back the plates and insert them in the carrier pockets as well; or
3) Remove the plate carrying option from this rig altogether.

Option 3 is most likely.  Simply stitch the vertical bar-tacks that divide the MOLLE/PALS columns right through the body of the rig and sew the opening in the bottom shut.  Remove the extra bits that hold the plate out of the back panel.  I say it's most likely as there are times when armor is desireable, but not kit i.e. filling sandbags, riding in a turret in an armored vehicle, etc.  A plate carrier would be desireable in certain situations, however the risk averse CF makes the chances of seeing one issued (at least for that purpose) slim to none.

Using the plate carrier pockets for hydration is a typically Canadian thing to do.  To take something that is inadequate or unsuitable and make the best of it, or take something built for one purpose and employ it in a completely different manner is something our Infantry Corps has been doing quite successfully for generations.  In order to become properly equipped, this attitude of "we'll make it work" needs to be stimied, especially during the T&E phases of equipment procurement.  We deserve better.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, but we shouldn't have to go to those lengths.

Quote from: Anyone's Grunt on Yesterday at 10:48:05
My thoughts...


3) The drawing indicates a single waist adjustment strap centered in the panel.  This leaves the upper and lower corners free to sag and droop.  A simple solution would be to change to 2 straps, one on the extereme lower edge and one on the corner above it.  This change would lead to a more secure rig, less flop and droop.


This could be somewhat easily done as a non-permanent mod using field repair hardware, some extra 1" webbing, and some DIY ingenuity by the user.

Again, the end user shouldn't be required to modify a brand new piece of gear.

Offline Tango18A

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2011, 09:33:51 »
I've seen the MTTF MP Pl running around in the Garrison field house with these carriers on. Looks wierd on some as the only pouches worn are for the 152.

Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2011, 12:01:48 »
As this is a clear ripoff of a presumably patented design, does SORD have any legal recourse to prevent this rig from being contracted for manufacture by the CF?  If this was the MoFOCR, let's say, even though you are no longer associated with them, would CP Gear have grounds for legal action if this was done without their consent?  Is this patent infringement?

As for the plate carrier issue, some questions come to mind...

Are our plates rated as stand alone plates?  That is, can they be worn without a soft armor backing?  If not, then some changes need to be made.  I see one of three routes being taken.

1) Procure new plates that are rated as stand alone;
2) Procure a special cut of soft armor to back the plates and insert them in the carrier pockets as well; or
3) Remove the plate carrying option from this rig altogether.

Option 3 is most likely.  Simply stitch the vertical bar-tacks that divide the MOLLE/PALS columns right through the body of the rig and sew the opening in the bottom shut.  Remove the extra bits that hold the plate out of the back panel.  I say it's most likely as there are times when armor is desireable, but not kit i.e. filling sandbags, riding in a turret in an armored vehicle, etc.  A plate carrier would be desireable in certain situations, however the risk averse CF makes the chances of seeing one issued (at least for that purpose) slim to none.

Using the plate carrier pockets for hydration is a typically Canadian thing to do.  To take something that is inadequate or unsuitable and make the best of it, or take something built for one purpose and employ it in a completely different manner is something our Infantry Corps has been doing quite successfully for generations.  In order to become properly equipped, this attitude of "we'll make it work" needs to be stimied, especially during the T&E phases of equipment procurement.  We deserve better.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, but we shouldn't have to go to those lengths.


This could be somewhat easily done as a non-permanent mod using field repair hardware, some extra 1" webbing, and some DIY ingenuity by the user.


Again, the end user shouldn't be required to modify a brand new piece of gear.

I was told a few months ago through the grapevine that DND had licensed SORD's design for their rigs and pouches.  With that said, even if they hadn't unless something is specifically patented or has some other sort of IP protection, i.e. registered industrial design, design patent, trademark, etc. there's virtually nothing other than crying "Hey you *******, you copied my stuff..." that can be done.  Lots of companies in the nylon business either take somebody else's design and modify it, or outright copy it.  Eagle did some mods to London Bridge's Riverine Warfare H-Harness, and came up with the 'Maritime Load Carriage System', which was then cloned by Blackhawk as their STRIKE line back in 2003.

I don't know for certain, but believe the current CF issued plates are not for stand-alone use.  CANSOFCOM may be different, but not for big Army.  It's a fairly simple fix to build a nylon pouch for a SAPI plate that has the appropriate soft armor on the rear for back face deformation/spalling issues.  Pacific Safety Products, Armorworks Canada, and Allen Vanguard  (the major soft body armor producers in Canada) could easily fabricate something like this, and have it tested and certified.  The SAPI plate would be inserted into that pouch and then the ensemble would be placed into the plate carrier pocket inside the MLCS rig.  Now you have a modular plate carrier platform.

So as long as the rig is adjusted snugly, the extra bulk for the plate carrier pockets probably won't really affect the performance of the rig, as they'll be compressed under the rig against the body.  It's not like you're wearing a CIRAS, which has alot of play in the material because it's designed to accomodate soft body armor panels.  I've worn a SO Tech Callahan plate carrier, and an older TAG plate carrier for range training sessions and they fit fine without the plates inserted.  Plate Carriers without plates are more like a chest rig type system with a full back panel. 

Regarding 'Jerry Rigging' hydration bladders into plate carrier pockets:  You'd be surprised as to what some very high speed units (non-Canadian) are doing with respect to inserting that Source LPS 2L into plate carrier pockets, placing the bladder in front of the strike face.  They want to reduce weight and extraneous bulk, and because they can get away with doing what they want in respect to PPE they actually approached Source to develop a system specifically to do this.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 12:07:49 by Matt_Fisher »

Offline Anyone's Grunt

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2011, 13:03:36 »
...It's a fairly simple fix...

Fairly simple fixes in the CF still take years... look at the WWB re-sole project.

Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2011, 13:10:00 »
Fairly simple fixes in the CF still take years... look at the WWB re-sole project.

I wouldn't be surprised if before too long either CPGear, ICE Tactical, Dropzone, or somebody else have a commercial version of this thing available, with or without some improvements.

Offline Anyone's Grunt

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2011, 10:56:56 »
So once again troops will have to pay out of pocket for proper equipment... Awesome.

Does the release of these documents indicate that the T&E phase is over?  If not, who's trialling this rig in Canada?

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2011, 10:59:50 »
If not, who's trialling this rig in Canada?

Probably someone at NDHQ who hasn't been in the field since St.Jean. Then they'll give it to an Inf Bn for a 12 hour assessment period just before the final T&E report is delivered.

Offline Anyone's Grunt

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2011, 12:10:16 »
Probably someone at NDHQ who hasn't been in the field since St.Jean. Then they'll give it to an Inf Bn for a 12 hour assessment period just before the final T&E report is delivered.

The river of bitterness runs deep I see.

Don't forget, during the 12 hour assessment period the only thing the science wienies will be concerned about is "do you like the color?"  All other objections will be waved aside.

Nothing is too good for the troops, so nothing is what they'll get.

Offline MCG

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2011, 12:19:42 »
... who's trialling this rig in Canada?
Where there are eqpt trials in the Army, it should be these guys: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cfb_gagetown/english/units/lfteu/index.asp

Offline alexgold

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2011, 12:33:54 »
This is the exact same vest we have in theatre right now actually, we've had them since Wainwright.  It is an awesome vest except it is extremely difficult to put on with the new arm brassards on the frag vest, you almost need a buddy to put it on.  But no its very good and lots of pouches come with it (27 are the baseline plus more for specialty jobs).  So far nobody has tried to make standards at all, but section commanders do have to make sure their guys don't try to put on all the pouches at once because they can and which becomes not practical.  But all in all very good vest, however, we were told that this was only one of three models they were testing so I wasn't aware that they went ahead with this project.  It would be good tough, cause this system looked the best out of the three.

Offline Anyone's Grunt

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2011, 06:57:15 »
...It is an awesome vest except ...

Please ensure you make this point known to those running the trial along with the other points this thread has brought up regarding this rig.  If your unsure who to bring these points to ask you CoC.  Those participating in the trial are the only chance we have to ensure that proper kit is procured.

...this system looked the best out of the three.

Looks can be deceiving.  IMO it's a POS.

Offline BCBoy

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2011, 22:07:41 »
All of 3VP has been issued this MFR, along with most (if not all) of TF 1-11. We have been using it for the last 5 months or so. The specialty pouches have finally come in.. C9 gunners got issued 2 pouches, grenadiers got 2x quad carriers plus a 12 bomb bandolier. I'd say the general consensus is fairly positive. The only thing i've had a problem with is it's very front heavy, and quite annoying while lying in the prone. Obvious ways to counter that, you just have to switch the pouches around to better suit the user. I've switched my pouches around a few times now, just trying to figure out what I like best. I sure hope they keep this rig around and issue it to all combat arms.



...better than the old rig, designed by Chair Force and completely useless...
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2011, 12:07:06 »
... *sigh* another case of CF equipment stupidity...

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Offline Snaketnk

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2011, 19:54:55 »
Would the front heavy problem be solved if you carry water on your back?
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Offline Anyone's Grunt

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2011, 20:43:52 »
Would the front heavy problem be solved if you carry water on your back?

Yup, right up until you drink the water. 

Offline Thucydides

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2011, 21:03:41 »
I inherited a rig with a somewhat similar layout, and the front strike plate carrier served as a map pocket and FMP holder for me. I don't see a kangaroo pouch as being a total waste of time even if you don't have a plate to put inside.
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Offline PatrickO

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Re: ISSP - Modular Load Carriage at last
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 17:20:34 »
Update on the ISSP Modular load carriage subject - looks like we're getting close to seeing a Request for Proposals soon...

from the site:
Quote
Update - Nov. 17, 2011

The ISSP Team is pleased to inform you that we are making every effort to finalize the Request For Proposal in preparation for a February 2012 release to the Government Electronic Tendering Service (GETS).  Due to the upcoming release, all RFP related content will be removed from this website sometime during the month of January 2012.

The feedback and questions received so far have been of great assistance. As a result of several inquiries, we realized that some additional clarification may be required to help potential Bidders better understand the sequence of events related to Systems deliveries and participation in the Performance Evaluation (PE) following the Solicitation closing.  A graphical representation of this sequence of events is available, with tentative timing blocks so that potential bidders have a better time appreciation of the activities involved.  Specific dates on these activities cannot be provided before the Solicitation process is well underway.  Amendments to the schedule may occur should circumstances change.
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Sharpe: "Trust me."
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