Topic: Apaches

[Ex-Dragoon]

i think that our 15 new very expensive CH-47F's Had better be very well escorted because inside thoes helicopters are our kids. I say that if we didn't get rid of the GST, just froze it and chaneled it into northern development and military spending we could afford what we needed.  Attack helicopters are essential, I'd rather not have to keep saying to other countries 'CAN WE BORROW, DO YOU HAVE, WE CAN'T AFFORD' the basics.  When it comes down to it if country A needs the capability that is theres and we need the same and dont have it we wait, Is that worth a life to save face in Ottawa?

The quiet was too good to be true....

[Humphrey Bogart]

I am all for the procurement of more helicopters for the CF, especially ones of the offensive nature.  Understandably, their isn't a lot of political will power to procure something like an apache but heck if the air force can drop billions of dollars on the JSF... (An aircraft which I would argue we don't need at all/ not that we don't need new aircraft, but I believe money we be far better spent on something like the Eurofighter or something similar) why not by a sqn of apaches or tigers for escort and fire support.

I mean are we not trying to develop an air assault capability within the CF, especially with the procurement of the Chinooks and the re-invigoration of the light infantry.  The CF needs to get away from looking at choppers as simply just a transport platform and look at actually developing some basic tactics and structure to how they conduct helicopter ops i.e. aerial cbt team manoeuvres.

[Thucydides]

The government putting out a RFP and tenders for any sort of attack helicopter will certainly cause Stephen Staples and his fellow travelers to go into collective shock, so maybe there is something to that suggestion after all 

There are some fairly low budget attack helos out there such as the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, MH-6 "Little Bird" or (real outlier) the Chinese WZ-10, but the real cost is always the trained manpower to operate the machines. Streamlining the headquarters will open up PYs for other things, but I doubt the number of PY's would match what we need now to fill in the gaps in existing organizations, much less entirely new organizations.

Still, as missions and needs evolve, so too will where and how we place resources. It may well be that attack helicopters might be supplemented by UAV or UCAV's, or their roles taken by other technologies (ground attack by aircraft coming in the weeds has been largely replaced by high altitude bombing using smart weapons, for example)

[aesop081]

(ground attack by aircraft coming in the weeds has been largely replaced by high altitude bombing using smart weapons, for example)

Only because the operating environments lately have been permisive as far as the air situation is concerned.

[Good2Golf]

The government putting out a RFP and tenders for any sort of attack helicopter will certainly cause Stephen Staples and his fellow travelers to go into collective shock, so maybe there is something to that suggestion after all 
...

T, pun intended?   If so, 

[Colin P]

Well considering our recent usage, one could likely get Mi-8AMTSh's to act in this role, and we could sell them to the public as dual use SAR helo's inbetween killings...

[FoverF]

T, pun intended?   If so, 

I absolutely despise puns in all their forms. But this just about made my day.

Oh, and I'd rather see us get AORs, Javelins, HIMARS, a few extra C-17 and CC-150 airframes, a DDH replacement, F-35s, satellites, combat-capable submarines, more U(C)AVs, a fleet of P-8s (with maybe some airframes in a Wedgetail-type configuration), an LDP, maybe some Juan-Carlos I class ships, and while I'm dreaming I'd wish for some means of rudimentary ground-based air defence. Once we had all of that in place, then maybe some AH's. Like Tiger ARHs.

But let's be realistic. There's no way Canada could afford gear like this. It's impossible... *cough* AUSTRALIA *cough* excuse me.  Things like stealth fighters, AWACS, aircraft carriers, attack helos, and SAMs are outside the reach of middle powers like us.

*COUGH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures *cough*, oh, gesundheit.

(Just to be fair, Australia doesn't have HIMARS. I could live with that.)

[Michael O'Leary]

*COUGH* http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,44917.0.html *COUGH*

[Thucydides]

The ROK gets AH-64Es with the new "Arrowhead" system. The ability to track targets in ground clutter and urban environments is very important in today's environment:

https://strategypage.com/htmw/htairw/articles/20171215.aspx

Air Weapons: The Missile That Sells Helicopters

December 15, 2017: In early November South Korea held a live fire exercise off the west coast featuring its newly organized force of AH-64E helicopter gunships. Eight AH-64Es flew sixty kilometers to the coast and then each of them fired at an offshore target using a Hellfire guided missile. This exercise was more for North Korea than anyone else because the 36 South Korea AH-64s began arriving in mid-2016 and were all in service by January 2017. What makes the AH-64 so effective is that it is combat proven, reliable and carries sixteen Hellfire missiles. Each one can be used to destroy individual vehicles (including tanks) or ships (especially the small, fast ones North Korea depends on).

The current Hellfire II weighs 48 kg (106 pounds), carries a 9 kg (20 pound) warhead, and has a range of 8,000 meters. The Hellfire is fast, travelling at about 450 meters a second, meaning that it can hit a target at maximum range in less than 20 seconds. Hellfire is popular for use in urban areas because the small warhead (with only about a kilogram/2.2 pounds of explosives) reduces casualties among nearby civilian (“collateral damage”). Hellfire was introduced in early 1980, shortly before the AH-64 entered service. Both systems were successful and remain in high demand worldwide.

South Korea ordered the AH-64E in 2013 and they arrived a year ahead of schedule because of the growing threat from North Korea. The South Korean AH-64Es are equipped with the new TADS/PNVS (“Arrowhead”) all-weather targeting systems. This cost an extra $6.8 million per helicopter but was considered worth it because South Korean Army aviators had seen Arrowhead in action on U.S. 48 AH-64Es stationed in South Korea and urged adoption of the system because they could see how effective it was along the DMZ, which is hilly and often covered in low clouds or mist. Moreover the Arrowhead system had proved itself during combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. The U.S. Army began installing Arrowhead in its AH-64s in 2005 after two years of development and testing. Arrowhead uses the latest night vision devices (light enhancement and thermal, or heat, based) and fire control electronics to enable AH-64 crews to operate more safely, and effectively, at lower altitudes and in any weather. This is particularly critical in urban areas, where South Korea expects a lot of combat to take place if the North Koreans manage to get across the border (DMZ).

Work on Arrowhead got a boost after the Iraq invasion in 2003, which was followed by a growing amount of urban fighting. This created the need for an AH-64 that could hover at 800 meters (2,500 feet) altitude (safe from most small arms fire) and use its high resolution sensors to see who was doing what for out to eight kilometers (five miles) away. Arrowhead could do that, and now most American AH-64s have Arrowhead and many transport helicopters as well (to make night flying safer). Whatever an AH-64 can see (or detect via Arrowhead) it can hit with a Hellfire missile.

Arrowhead was a major shift from the previous Longbow fire control system developed in the 1990s. Longbow was designed for the original AH-64 mission: flying at higher altitudes and looking for and destroying distant enemy armored vehicles. The Longbow allowed the AH-64 to go after armored vehicles at night and in bad weather. In the past, potential American enemies practiced moving their armor at night and bad weather, to avoid helicopters armed with long range missiles (like Hellfire or TOW). Longbow was doubly lethal because it was designed to avoid giving away its position when using its radar. AH-64s also had electronic countermeasures. Arrowhead, on the other hand, made night and bad weather deadly for enemy troops thinking they could sneak through urban areas unobserved. Longbow could not spot these guys, but Arrowhead could and did. South Korea had plenty of evidence that North Korean troops trained to use tactics that Arrowhead proved it could handle. The latest AH-64E exercise using Hellfire missiles made it clear that South Korea was now ready to handle North Korean gunboats and high speed hovercraft North Korea had stationed on the west coast for landing commandos.

Both American and South Korean forces are using the latest version of the AH-64. This model was originally designated the AH-64D Block III. But the changes proved to be so extensive that the name was changed to AH-64E. The E version had its first flight in 2008 entered service in 2011. The U.S. Army decided to upgrade all 634 of its AH-64s to the new E standard, a process that won't be completed until 2020.

The E version had a lot of improvements. One of the notable ones is a more powerful and fuel efficient engine, as well as much improved electronics. This includes Internet like capabilities with other aircraft and ground troops. The E version is able to control several UAVs and launch missiles at targets spotted by its UAVs. The E version radar has longer range and onboard computers are much more powerful. The electronics are easier to upgrade and maintain. The combination of Longbow, Arrowhead, and Internet capabilities greatly increased the capabilities of the AH-64. That and all the combat experience it gained after 2001 made it the most popular helicopter gunship design and nations that could afford to (and were on good terms with the U.S.) ordered the AH-64 or the Arrowhead upgrades.

The 10 ton AH-64E carries a pilot and a weapons officer, as well as about a ton of weapons. The AH-64 can operate at night and has a top speed of 260 kilometers an hour. Sorties average 90 minutes but can be extended to three hours or more by replacing weapons with fuel tanks. Most of the existing 1,100 AH-64s (American and foreign) will eventually be upgraded to the E standard. AH-64Es can fly several sorties a day, for at least a few days. This is the kind of weapon North Korea fears most and the South Koreans are trying to keep their new AH-64s safe from North Korea artillery or commando attack on the first day of any war.

[alexanderpeterson]

UK recently mothballed sixteen (16) WAH -64 Apache.    http://defense-update.com/20150321_british_apache.html

We might make an agreement with UK. Bring those WAH-64 (blade folding capability) and upgraded them to AH-64E.

They will be stationed in BATUS, some with skis (https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/apache-attack-helicopters-don-skis-and-other-upgrades-f-1764321093).

The Helicopters will remain part of the motherland Army (leased to Canada) in exchange for spare parts for their Apaches. We will need to upgrade our Army Doctrine,  we will train our own pilots in Apache inter operations tactics. We can use as deterrent to our friend from uhumm the Arctic and beyond and use them in our foreign expeditionary UN sponsored missions case in point Mali. It will be cheaper than buying hardware

[Hamish Seggie]

FWIW I think you’re dreaming in technicolor. There is no way the current GoC would consider using attack helicopters IMO.

[alexanderpeterson]

You are absolutely right...dreaming still is free 

FYI:

50 New AH64E Apache cost US$ 2.3 Billion (US$ 56 Million a piece).  Re manufacture to AH64E will cost US$ 12.9 Million a piece (US$ 488 Million per 38 Apaches). BATUS for UK is priceless...hope a GoC representative notice this asymetry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-to-remanufacture-38-apaches-for-uk-437205/

[daftandbarmy]

You are absolutely right...dreaming still is free 

FYI:

50 New AH64E Apache cost US$ 2.3 Billion (US$ 56 Million a piece).  Re manufacture to AH64E will cost US$ 12.9 Million a piece (US$ 488 Million per 38 Apaches). BATUS for UK is priceless...hope a GoC representative notice this asymetry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-to-remanufacture-38-apaches-for-uk-437205/

As long as they have unicorn paint jobs, and the ability to fire parkas and teddy bears, the current government would likely support this idea

[tomahawk6]

Get some used A-10's instead.

[daftandbarmy]

Get some used A-10's instead.

First: more long range artillery (MLRS)
Second: Whatever else is needed to support the infantry and armoured fight

[alexanderpeterson]

Second: Whatever else is needed to support the infantry and armoured fight

Apache is a formidable infantry support asset (Do not forget during the first Gulf war a complete Iraqi Battalion surrender to a couple of Apaches. Source: Desert Storm Land Power Osprey Coalition Iraqi Armies Gulf War by Tim Ripley and they were design to combat Varsovia Pact armored tanks in Eastern Europe. Agreed with MLRS, btw...anyone knows what is the status of that purchasing process?

[daftandbarmy]

Apache is a formidable infantry support asset (Do not forget during the first Gulf war a complete Iraqi Battalion surrender to a couple of Apaches. Source: Desert Storm Land Power Osprey Coalition Iraqi Armies Gulf War by Tim Ripley and they were design to combat Varsovia Pact armored tanks in Eastern Europe. Agreed with MLRS, btw...anyone knows what is the status of that purchasing process?

Artillery is an all weather, 24/7, brylcreem free asset

[alexanderpeterson]

Canadian Army needs both for different reasons MLRS to improve Artillery Capability and deterrent if our Northern Arctic neighbor became creative. Apache for protecting Infantry and overseas deployment...among other useful things.

[alexanderpeterson]

Imagine one of this...with the Red Maple on it

[Loachman]

We haven't painted red maple leaves on green helicopters for more than three decades.

[Journeyman]

Imagine one of this...with the Red Maple on it

We haven't painted red maple leaves on green helicopters for more than three decades.

I think Canada having any  Apaches, let alone one, is a more significant "imagine" than the roundel colour. 

But thanks. 

[alexanderpeterson]

Or Cobras?

[SeaKingTacco]

Lets start a petition. Who is joining? Basically Buy Apaches Helicopter...who is with me?

https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Search?category=All&text=apache

You are serious? You come to Army.ca and ask serving military personnel to sign a petition to buy attack helicopters for the CF?

You are delusional.

 

[alexanderpeterson]

You are serious? You come to Army.ca and ask serving military personnel to sign a petition to buy attack helicopters for the CF?

You are delusional.

 

Did not know the rules. Learned the hard way...It was a bad joke

[George Wallace]

Not to troll, but this seems interesting in this thread......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Ie0CwP_EgM0


Propaganda or not?