Author Topic: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )  (Read 790104 times)

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Offline AK

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1150 on: July 25, 2019, 09:42:34 »
Nowadays you can buy an InBody machine for $15,000. It's as accurate, more importantly as consistent, as a DEXA scan (costs significantly more, like $40 - 50k). DEXA requires a trained technician to operate it, a monkey can operate an InBody machine. It provides body composition, BMI, body fat %, segmental lean analysis, segmental fat analysis, and visceral fat levels. It takes about 60 seconds and prints your results right in front of you.

For some reason, I feel like there's a lot of good things the CAF could do with a machine like this on every base.... but no one is interested in those kind of initiatives because they would take longer than their 2 year posting.

When I was a guinea pig for the FORCE test and DFit, they had the high-tech body composition measurement machines (could have been InBody, I don't remember clearly).  Marvelous amount of information.  I also had access to one at my fancy civilian gym on my last posting.  It would be so useful to have an annual check on this machine and be able to track the trends.  And it's always good for morale to be officially told that you're not so much fat as very muscular.   ;D

Cheers,

AK

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1151 on: July 25, 2019, 18:57:40 »
When I was a guinea pig for the FORCE test and DFit, they had the high-tech body composition measurement machines (could have been InBody, I don't remember clearly).

Yes, fellow lab rat, it was the InBody 570.  I found my printouts while cleaning out my files when I released.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1152 on: July 25, 2019, 21:32:05 »
Got a funny email today from RCN Chief to the Navy writ large.

Apparently 3500 sailors didn't bother doing the FORCE Test last year and are expired.  I had a chuckle when they said, "members need to sort it out".

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1153 on: July 25, 2019, 21:41:39 »
Got a funny email today from RCN Chief to the Navy writ large.

Apparently 3500 sailors didn't bother doing the FORCE Test last year and are expired.  I had a chuckle when they said, "members need to sort it out".

That...uh, seems like a lot of people.
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1154 on: July 25, 2019, 21:48:53 »
That can't be right; that's half the navy. I wonder if that's a bad data pull or something? 

I'm sure there are probably a number of people that don't make it every year for various reasons, but that seems exceptionally high. Especially given that there is usually a few people at each unit with the secondary duty to schedule the tests that track when everyone is expiring, plus other reports that go to the XOs that cover that off.  Can't really see a scenario where that many people got overlooked or just didn't bother to get it done.

Since they switched to the Force test, the PSP results go in the same day for me, so that part of it seems to work well.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1155 on: July 25, 2019, 21:55:16 »
Well, no valid fitness profile means unfit military conditions, so everyone with a lapsed profile should lose all allowances the day it lapsed until they get retested.

Time to bring a stick to the fight, and not milquetoast words.
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1156 on: July 25, 2019, 22:07:57 »
That...uh, seems like a lot of people.

Depends on how you count ‘The Navy’. Have we sorted out FORCE testing for reservists yet? If not, the NAVRES is a decent chunk of people. There are also people who have legitimate reasons not to be tested, like those who have a test expiring while on a deployment, who have an injury or are on LWOP.

If they are all regular fleet sailors posted to Halifax and Esquimalt? Yeah, that’s a problem. But more a problem for the leadership than the sailors. One sailor skips the FORCE test, that’s the sailor’sfault. 3000 sailors skip a FORCE test, that’s the Admiral’s fault. Units are supposd to be checking PT tests, and not just on PERs and promotions.

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1157 on: July 25, 2019, 23:23:21 »
Well, no valid fitness profile means unfit military conditions, so everyone with a lapsed profile should lose all allowances the day it lapsed until they get retested.

Time to bring a stick to the fight, and not milquetoast words.

You mean like the various COs of mine who have waved to us from the curb as my company tabbed last with 55 lbs on during the (13 km) BFT?

P.S. all of us Reservists (even those of us in our 40s and 50s) passed easily.
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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1158 on: July 26, 2019, 00:13:51 »
This doesn't take into account test dates. You could do you fitness test in Apr, and depart on a six month sail in Feb. You would be lapsed if you didn't test before you left the wall. Not entirely fair to stop someone's allowances when they were unable to test for service reasons.
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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1159 on: July 26, 2019, 05:43:53 »
Well, no valid fitness profile means unfit military conditions, so everyone with a lapsed profile should lose all allowances the day it lapsed until they get retested.

Time to bring a stick to the fight, and not milquetoast words.

Not quite;  I've had an *expired* FORCE test but I still flew.  My medical being expired would be an example or something that would ground me but not the FORCE test.
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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1160 on: July 26, 2019, 07:24:33 »
That...uh, seems like a lot of people.

Seems like it but...

I know in the Army a lot of people complete the test put the data is not input into the system until later if at all in a lot of cases.  So maybe that accounts for it.  It wouldn't shock me.
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Offline stoker dave

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1161 on: July 26, 2019, 07:46:24 »
Apparently 3500 sailors didn't bother doing the FORCE Test last year and are expired. 
Some decades ago I was tasked with arranging fitness testing for everyone in a small (25 person) group in NDHQ.  The first person I approached was the senior officer of the group.  I asked him when would be convenient for him to take his fitness test and that I would schedule it.

His response was (to the effect) "I am not taking any stupid fitness test." 

I decided that if he wasn't taking the test, no one was.  This guy was a Navy Commander, by the way.  So I scheduled no one in the group for the test. 

If you can't lead the troops to a fitness test, how can you lead them in battle? (Yeah, that is a bit sarcastic, but meant to be funny - please take my little anecdote for what it is meant to be.)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 09:33:25 by stoker dave »

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1162 on: July 26, 2019, 10:35:41 »
Just quoting the RCN Chief's SITREP.  I agree the number seems high but PSP logs all fitness scores electronically now so the number has to be coming from somewhere.

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1163 on: July 26, 2019, 10:40:23 »
PRes (at least Army) dodged the PSP empire build and does it in house on paper, then inputs into HRMS. 

I suspect the 3500 includes Res F NES, ED&T, and Reg F on terminal leave.

But it's still a big number...

Mind you, last time I looked at the MCS report, the number without a valid fitness profile was high across the board.

The CAF still lacks a culture of fitness and wellness; we run cheap bars, stores selling smokes and energy drinks, and messes offer fried fatty foods and sugar drinks.  The science us out there, we just don't want to pay attention.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1164 on: July 26, 2019, 11:10:40 »
The CAF still lacks a culture of fitness and wellness; we run cheap bars, stores selling smokes and energy drinks, and messes offer fried fatty foods and sugar drinks.  The science us out there, we just don't want to pay attention.

I agree that the CAF lacks a culture of fitness, but I don't agree with the solution I think you're implying.  There is nothing wrong with cheap bars, fatty foods and sugary drinks.  All things are fine in moderation, except smoking, that's just plain stupid. 

Where we lack a culture of fitness is really where we make it difficult for people to achieve and maintain a level of fitness.  We run the crap out of people on basic training, but then we stop.  Everybody should have a basic daily exercise routine.  There is a CANFORGEN that states personnel are to be given time during working hours to exercise, but many don't take advantage and there are still supervisors out there that fight it ("we're too busy" - BS! - NO ONE is too busy to train for a military requirement).  We have base parking committees that spend hours discussing parking issues, but the first time some extra space is needed, all the bicycle racks are removed.  In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles!  Without laundry or at least drying facilities, what are people supposed to do?  All the promotional material for the Carling campus brags about the bicycle parking, but there is still a dearth of change rooms and again, no place to hang wet gear.

All in all, we talk a good game about promoting individual fitness, but as a whole, we suck at supporting it, the Combat Arms perhaps excepted.
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Offline FSTO

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1165 on: July 26, 2019, 11:54:09 »
I agree that the CAF lacks a culture of fitness, but I don't agree with the solution I think you're implying.  There is nothing wrong with cheap bars, fatty foods and sugary drinks.  All things are fine in moderation, except smoking, that's just plain stupid. 

Where we lack a culture of fitness is really where we make it difficult for people to achieve and maintain a level of fitness.  We run the crap out of people on basic training, but then we stop.  Everybody should have a basic daily exercise routine.  There is a CANFORGEN that states personnel are to be given time during working hours to exercise, but many don't take advantage and there are still supervisors out there that fight it ("we're too busy" - BS! - NO ONE is too busy to train for a military requirement).  We have base parking committees that spend hours discussing parking issues, but the first time some extra space is needed, all the bicycle racks are removed.  In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles!  Without laundry or at least drying facilities, what are people supposed to do?  All the promotional material for the Carling campus brags about the bicycle parking, but there is still a dearth of change rooms and again, no place to hang wet gear.

All in all, we talk a good game about promoting individual fitness, but as a whole, we suck at supporting it, the Combat Arms perhaps excepted.

With all the other issues at Carling, I'm sure they could take one space per floor to make it into a "Commuter change room" you'd still have to shower down at the gym but at least you could hang your gear somewhere away from your work space.

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1166 on: July 26, 2019, 12:17:09 »
Hmmmmmm... I wonder if NAVRES would approve an MR for an InBody 570?
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1167 on: July 26, 2019, 13:09:34 »
With all the other issues at Carling, I'm sure they could take one space per floor to make it into a "Commuter change room" you'd still have to shower down at the gym but at least you could hang your gear somewhere away from your work space.

If it makes you all feel any better, I change in a smelly common bathroom that hasn't been updated since 1930 and I bike everyday.  I would get changed in the office like I would do in the field but someone would make a complaint probably  ;D

Offline mariomike

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1168 on: July 26, 2019, 13:17:53 »
In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles! 

This is a naïve question. But, I never worked in a cubicle. Do they not have locker rooms?

Offline CountDC

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1169 on: July 26, 2019, 13:41:11 »
FWIW...the absolute longest parade practice I've ever seen was the Officer's graduation parade at CTC Gagetown.  They'd be on the parade square in front of the Battle Mall in August for a solid week, mounted and dismounted.  And that grad parade was usually extremely impressive.

Longest I saw was a month long practice for the Queen's visit to Halifax in the mid 80's that was a changing of colours parade.  They practiced every day from early (8 or 9) until 2200h.

BMI absolutely was a total farce.  Total butterballs just passing while body builders were registered as obese and had to see a MO for the pinch test and certification that they were good.

There are many instances where the dress regs are not adhered to or enforced even by those that think they are strict about it. Go to a function where the dress is civvies and as a male wear an earing.  Probably wouldn't take long for someone to say something about it not allowed iaw dress regs.  Look around though and see how many females are dressed iaw with those same regs - lots of makeup, big earrings, long fake nails, hair, etc.  Before the beardgen came out how many were shaving every weekend or when on leave? The reg didn't say you only had to shave on days you worked.

Drill is certainly important, especially on basic as it does instill the team work and discipline.  Problem is when they want to throw everyone together at the last second to do a pomp and ceremony parade with no practice to take the rust off.  I have no delusion that we are all spending hours a week practicing drill on our own time to be sharp.

NDHQ generally didn't have locker rooms when I was there other than the "use while in the gym" ones.
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1170 on: July 26, 2019, 13:48:03 »
If there is a locker room, there are usually only temporary lockers.  They are meant for using while you are in the gym, so the # of lockers is based on the approx capacity of the gym.  There aren't usually assigned lockers, but if there are there is usually a wait list longer than a posting cycle.

The workplace 2.0 cubicle layout usually comes with a small locker (that actually isn't deep enough for a standard hangar) but isn't ventilated so nothing will dry out at all. Pretty typical to see towels, shirts and shorts hanging around inside a cubicle.  Especially anyone that bikes to/from, as there is nothing worse then putting on damp spandex at the end of the day.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1171 on: July 26, 2019, 15:38:42 »
I just looked at what RCN Chief said again:

"FORCE Tests -  On average, approximately 3500 RCN Pers are not tested annually.  Yes there are those on MELs, etc. But this is unacceptable. Kindly ensure all your pers are held accountable."

Offline ballz

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1172 on: July 27, 2019, 18:33:05 »
Yes, fellow lab rat, it was the InBody 570.  I found my printouts while cleaning out my files when I released.

That's the machine I used too.

Everyone in the CAF should get an InBody scan once a year... when they do their FORCE test or if they can't do their FORCE test, still get it done. And then have the data inputted into a data base. We could get soooo much valuable data relatively easily. Brigades can be compared to Brigades, PRes to RF, Divs to Divs, Units to Units, Army vs Navy vs RCAF, Patricias to Royals to Van doos...

Nothing changes culture better than shame. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnaVNAj7YLQ&t=12s

And then results over time can actually be tracked.... but like I said, no one cares about that, those in positions to make this kind of change are only there for two years, there is nothing in it for them to do something like this. They'd rather publish flashy BS that makes it into Facebook posts.
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Offline CTD

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1173 on: July 28, 2019, 02:43:30 »
I agree that the CAF lacks a culture of fitness, but I don't agree with the solution I think you're implying.  There is nothing wrong with cheap bars, fatty foods and sugary drinks.  All things are fine in moderation, except smoking, that's just plain stupid. 

Where we lack a culture of fitness is really where we make it difficult for people to achieve and maintain a level of fitness.  We run the crap out of people on basic training, but then we stop.  Everybody should have a basic daily exercise routine.  There is a CANFORGEN that states personnel are to be given time during working hours to exercise, but many don't take advantage and there are still supervisors out there that fight it ("we're too busy" - BS! - NO ONE is too busy to train for a military requirement).  We have base parking committees that spend hours discussing parking issues, but the first time some extra space is needed, all the bicycle racks are removed.  In my building, the building senior tried to ban the hanging of athletic gear in cubicles!  Without laundry or at least drying facilities, what are people supposed to do?  All the promotional material for the Carling campus brags about the bicycle parking, but there is still a dearth of change rooms and again, no place to hang wet gear.

All in all, we talk a good game about promoting individual fitness, but as a whole, we suck at supporting it, the Combat Arms perhaps excepted.
I know when I was fixing CF18's the Maintainers did not have time during the working day to take a hour to excercise. We barely had the manpower to keep the jets flying. I hear it is even worse now. Trying to convince the boss I need my 1 hour of fitness time everyday, because of that time your jet wont jet ready until tomorrow doesnt fly. Especially in operational units that actually work at their job every day. 

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )
« Reply #1174 on: July 28, 2019, 09:46:47 »
I know when I was fixing CF18's the Maintainers did not have time during the working day to take a hour to excercise. We barely had the manpower to keep the jets flying. I hear it is even worse now. Trying to convince the boss I need my 1 hour of fitness time everyday, because of that time your jet wont jet ready until tomorrow doesnt fly. Especially in operational units that actually work at their job every day.
This is what the the RCAF 12 min fitness plan was developed for during the Cold War. I use this when short for time and don’t have the kit. Great workout. Now commonly known as HIIT.


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