Author Topic: All things joining the military (but not wanting to deploy) - merged  (Read 34831 times)

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Offline Hull.Down

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2009, 00:09:03 »
I said it's something he might want to mention to his Recruiter during his Interview. But, then I figured you would be sore at me if the Interview did go as well as hoped.

My original post before the edit was saying how I liked you reply.


Also, to clear up a point I am not talking about killing people himself as part of his job. I believe he disagrees on it as a whole of the entire military. How the hell can you do any job in the military if you don't support what they do.


The saying "if you do not support our troops feel free to stand in front of them" should not have to be said to anyone in the CF.

Yup, I'm sure our Med Techs, Doctors and Social Workers would be happy to hear that their implied responsibility is to kill people just because they are in uniform.  Being trained and prepared to use a C7 does not require you to want to kill people or to want to be in a trade where the core task may be to kill people.

Well, Med Techs do have to use their rifles to defend themselves and their own patients. I am not positive on Canadian rules of engagement but is it not "to engage only when defending yourself or if it's a hostile force"?

Why disagree with what the combat arms do if you help enable them to do their jobs? That's my point they shouldn't be in the military if they don't want to support (fully) or do the combat arms.

Offline WB

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2009, 00:36:37 »
Quote
Being trained and prepared to use a C7 does not require you to want to kill people or to want to be in a trade where the core task may be to kill people.

And likewise, being in a trade where the core task is killing people does not necessarily mean that you have to want to carry out that aspect of the job. But that's besides the point. We're talking about whether an individual is willing to do a job, not whether he should enjoy it.

If our Doctors, Med Techs, and Social Workers are not willing to kill should the need arise, then their weapons should be taken away.  There's no point in giving a guy a rifle if he's not going to use it.

To deny that every man is a rifleman first is a massive failure of mindset.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2009, 00:41:20 »
Wow, the logic here is leaping all over the place.  In the few comments we have seen, no one has explicitly stated the individual has explicitly claimed he wouldn't "kill should the need arise" i.e., in self defence, which is the only time some of those trades will ever be expected to do so.


Offline WB

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2009, 01:17:58 »
Quote
In the few comments we have seen, no one has explicitly stated the individual has explicitly claimed he wouldn't "kill should the need arise" i.e., in self defence, which is the only time some of those trades will ever be expected to do so.

I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. 

My comments, anyways, are limited to the tangent I started off on: That anyone in the CF may be required to take life in the performance of his or her duties. 

This, I think, we agree on.

Offline gillbates

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2009, 02:02:19 »
I said it's something he might want to mention to his Recruiter during his Interview. But, then I figured you would be sore at me if the Interview did go as well as hoped.
There was an American who applied for Conscientious Objector status in World War One. He was refused, and drafted into the Army. He turned himself around, and went on to kill a lot of Germans and won the Congressional Medal of Honor.
Goes to show, you just never know about a man.

That would be Col Alvin York, right? What a man.

EDIT: To keep this on topic, I find it puzzling that a potential recruit would shun or avoid deployment. I'd be worried about NOT getting deployed and getting stuck in garrison for my entire career. Personally, seeing that our involvement in Afghanistan seems to be winding down, I'm starting to consider the navy or the air force. At least there's the chance to go to sea, or NORAD, etc.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 02:29:29 by gillbates »

Offline gcclarke

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2009, 08:13:24 »
The job of those Med Techs, Doctors, Social Workers, and indeed everyone else in uniform (and many of our civilian counterparts as well) is to support the capability of the Canadian Armed Forces to apply violence against the enemy to further the goals of the Government of Canada.

Some people will be more directly involved in the application of violence against the enemy. We call those people "Combat Arms", "Air Crew" or the "Naval Operations Branch". Some are less directly involved, such as health services, and the Padres. But, we're all part of the same team, and for anyone in the forces to view another member as more of a "killer" than they are, just because one is a pilot who's been on a few bombing runs, and the other is a Cook is, frankly, a skewed worldview.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
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Offline mariomike

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 08:52:05 by mariomike »

Offline RandyL

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2009, 09:24:24 »
I'm in a hurry here so I'll quickly explain what was explained to me a couple weeks ago. I just received a call last week for an offer for Medical Technician. As it was explained to me, I will be soldier first, medic second. Med techs are not protected under any Geneva accord or agreements, only doctors are as I understand it. There are instances where the Med Tech is looked as a target in combat. I'm 36 so by the time I'm done my training I'll be 40. It may so happen that I never get deployed into any type of hostile situation, but if I do, and if I need to defend myself, I most certainly will. People may look at the issue as, why join to try and help people only to possible hurt others. The only real answer that I or anyone could probably give is that, thats just the way it is.

Offline Hull.Down

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2009, 09:38:07 »
I'm in a hurry here so I'll quickly explain what was explained to me a couple weeks ago. I just received a call last week for an offer for Medical Technician. As it was explained to me, I will be soldier first, medic second. Med techs are not protected under any Geneva accord or agreements, only doctors are as I understand it. There are instances where the Med Tech is looked as a target in combat. I'm 36 so by the time I'm done my training I'll be 40. It may so happen that I never get deployed into any type of hostile situation, but if I do, and if I need to defend myself, I most certainly will. People may look at the issue as, why join to try and help people only to possible hurt others. The only real answer that I or anyone could probably give is that, thats just the way it is.

What?

"*Note: Although they are non-combatants under the Geneva conventions, Medical Technicians deployed on operations bear arms to defend both their patients and themselves."

Source: http://www.forces.ca/flash.aspx#/flash/en/video_link/_VIDEOS/737_en.flv


Offline ballz

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2009, 15:43:24 »
If you can't agree with what all of the military does then you shouldn't be a part of it even if you aren't involved in combat.

I'm not sure why you quoted me as you clearly don't understand my post.

A military does what it's told. There is no agreeing or disagreeing with it, you can only do that with the politicians that decide what it does, and at the end of the day that means the people of the country that the said military exists for.

There could easily come a day that the government tells us to do something that you or I don't agree with. You can't see the future, you don't know what they're going to tell you to do. But we still have to go and do it to the best of our ability, whether we agree with it or not... Some people can't/don't want to agree to that. It's a pretty big commitment. You can't fault the original poster for asking if he had a choice in the matter.

As for your friend, well, yeah, if he's so opposed to shooting somebody no matter what the circumstances then he's the biggest walking talking contradiction on earth if he actually signs up for any trade other than padre. Med tech, doctor, nurse, well, that's a grey area. But I believe any of those trades CAN be ordered to be a soldier first, trade second, and be ordered to take part in combat and reign destruction on an enemy.... so it's a pretty dark shade of grey...
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2009, 16:01:22 »
That would be Col Alvin York, right? What a man.

Sgt. York, actually. 
There was also a Mess Attendant ( what we would call a Steward ) at Pearl Harbor who won the Navy Cross:
"When directed to assist in loading a pair of unattended Browning .50 caliber anti-aircraft guns, Miller took control of one and began firing at the Japanese planes, even though he had no training in operating the weapon. He fired the gun until he ran out of ammunition. Japanese aircraft eventually dropped two armor-piercing bombs through the deck of the battleship and launched 5 × 18 in. (457 mm) aircraft torpedoes into her port side. Heavily damaged by the ensuing explosions, and suffering from severe flooding below decks, the West Virginia slowly settled to the harbor bottom as her crew—including Miller—abandoned ship."

There was also in the movie "12 O'Clock High" a Padre who flew a mission aboard a B-17 as an Air Gunner, but I don't know how true that is.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 16:04:35 by mariomike »

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2009, 16:18:51 »
Med tech, doctor, nurse, well, that's a grey area. But I believe any of those trades CAN be ordered to be a soldier first, trade second, and be ordered to take part in combat and reign destruction on an enemy....

No they can't.  Medical personnel are allowed to defend themselves and their patients, depending on the ROEs.  The minute they start shooting at the enemy and tossing grenades, all bets are off.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2009, 14:22:11 »
No they can't.  Medical personnel are allowed to defend themselves and their patients, depending on the ROEs.  The minute they start shooting at the enemy and tossing grenades, all bets are off.

But they can (I know it's unlikely) be ordered to be a soldier first, trade second, just like any other trade other than padre, right? They *can* be ordered to start shooting the enemy and toss a grenade as part of an offensive campaign, no? Sorry but your post wasn't clear so I'm not sure what you're saying.
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Offline Hull.Down

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2009, 14:32:07 »
But they can (I know it's unlikely) be ordered to be a soldier first, trade second, just like any other trade other than padre, right? They *can* be ordered to start shooting the enemy and toss a grenade as part of an offensive campaign, no? Sorry but your post wasn't clear so I'm not sure what you're saying.

I am pretty sure that's against RoE for a med tech to be wearing the internationally recognized red cross on his arm and participating as a combatant (unless he changes uniform?).

This was especially seen in the Gaza strip as militants from Hamas used a single ambulance to escape a battle and then after that the Israeli army began opening fire on all ambulances. It's one of the things the U.N. says the Israeli military did wrong since the militants had the right to evacuate their wounded/dead.


aesop081

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2009, 15:04:49 »
I am pretty sure that's against RoE

International law is what governs the actions of those wearing the red cross/red crescent.

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2009, 16:28:20 »
No they can't.  Medical personnel are allowed to defend themselves and their patients, depending on the ROEs

But they can (I know it's unlikely) be ordered to be a soldier first, trade second, just like any other trade other than padre, right? They *can* be ordered to start shooting the enemy and toss a grenade as part of an offensive campaign, no? Sorry but your post wasn't clear so I'm not sure what you're saying.

What part of "No, they can't" was unclear?  Yes, everyone is a soldier/airman/seaman first and trade second but all medical personnel and padres are covered under the Geneva Convention and International Law (as CDN Aviator stated). So no, they cannot be ordered to throw grenades as part of an offensive campaign.  We can certainly be trained to do so, but to use it against the enemy is contravening the Geneva Convention.

You might want to also check out Laws of Armed Conflict.

See the link for more info, but here is a quote:

Quote
Nevertheless, to enjoy immunity, they must naturally abstain from any form of participation -even indirect- in hostile acts. We saw in Article 21 that the protection to which medical units are entitled ceases if they are used to commit acts "harmful to the enemy". This proviso obviously applies to medical personnel also.

Link:  http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/GC_1949-I.pdf
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Offline gcclarke

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2009, 16:55:54 »
I don't think anyone is trying to argue that medical units would still be entitled to protection their usual protection under the Geneva Convention and other Laws of Armed Conflict. The question is whether or not a medical unit could be ordered to forgo said protection in order to participate in an offensive. Would an order to a field hospital to take off their Red Cross armband, pick up their rifles, and move out to destroy the enemy be a legal order?

I'm not sure if it would be or not. However, I rather doubt that many commanders would even contemplate giving such an order, let alone actually issue it. Our health care personnel are generally a lot more useful in that role than they would be trying to pretend to be an infantry platoon.
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2009, 17:03:08 »
See what happens with "quick" questions?   ;)

IMHO, if you have no intention of deploying, don't join.  Of course, that's just me. 
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Offline GAP

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2009, 17:29:55 »
I haven't joined yet but Ive been wanting to get into artillery.

Let's say I completed BMQ, SQ, etc and at some time down the line my battalion/unit was called to Afghanistan and I refused to go. In short Im asking how do they deal with soldiers that have no intentions of going to Afghanistan?

(Moderator edit to clarify thread title.)

This was the original question.....I think we've kinda slipped away from it....
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Offline Hull.Down

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2009, 19:15:35 »
See what happens with "quick" questions?   ;)

IMHO, if you have no intention of deploying, don't join.  Of course, that's just me.

That's what I was trying to say originally.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2009, 19:33:46 »
Dean22 why don't you consider getting some more time in soldiering before answering questions about what soldiers can and can't do?
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Offline Hull.Down

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2009, 19:40:46 »
Dean22 why don't you consider getting some more time in soldiering before answering questions about what soldiers can and can't do?

I was merely commenting on how medics cannot engage in combat unless it's defense of themselves or their patients. If you'd like to mislead people then go right ahead.

aesop081

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2009, 19:43:44 »
If you'd like to mislead people then go right ahead.

Funny, usualy its you who does the misleading.

Translation..........STFU.

Offline Hull.Down

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2009, 20:01:19 »
Funny, usualy its you who does the misleading.

Translation..........STFU.

Usually.

No MSN talk please (at least those are the rules), also I fixed your spelling errors.

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Wanna join, but what if I don't wanna deploy? (merged)
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2009, 20:08:34 »
Usually.

No MSN talk please (at least those are the rules), also I fixed your spelling errors.

You just don't know when to quit, do you?   ::)
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