Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The problem is NOT Justin Trudeau; the problem wasn't Jean Chrétien nor was it Pierre Trudeau. The problem was and remains that we, the people of Canada, wanted and still want what our American neighbours and our European allies had and have: an advanced welfare state, but we didn't and still don't want to allow the sort of open, highly competitive, red in tooth and claw capitalism that characterizes the USA nor did we want pay European level taxes. We want something for nothing. We told the market researchers (pollsters) that in the early to mid 1960s. Neither John Diefenbaker nor Mike Pearson paid much attention; Jim Coutts and Keith Davey did and they advised Pierre Trudeau that his instinct - to try to abandon the US-led West and lead Canada, somehow, into the non-aligned group of nations, while politically naive was, essentially, what Canadians wanted ... this was the 1960s and '70s, remember, and Vietnam dominated the global narrative.

Nothing much has changed.

Partisan party politics isn't the problem.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The problem is NOT Justin Trudeau; the problem wasn't Jean Chrétien nor was it Pierre Trudeau. The problem was and remains that we, the people of Canada, wanted and still want what our American neighbours and our European allies had and have: an advanced welfare state, but we didn't and still don't want to allow the sort of open, highly competitive, red in tooth and claw capitalism that characterizes the USA nor did we want pay European level taxes. We want something for nothing. We told the market researchers (pollsters) that in the early to mid 1960s. Neither John Diefenbaker nor Mike Pearson paid much attention; Jim Coutts and Keith Davey did and they advised Pierre Trudeau that his instinct - to try to abandon the US-led West and lead Canada, somehow, into the non-aligned group of nations, while politically naive was, essentially, what Canadians wanted ... this was the 1960s and '70s, remember, and Vietnam dominated the global narrative.

Nothing much has changed.

Partisan party politics isn't the problem.

View attachment 74869

You're right. We tend to blame politicians, but in reality they are just going to do what the people want and keep thier butts warming seats in the HoC.

 

[kev994]

But without the Ajax disaster, right?

Inside Britain's £5.5 billion military disaster​

The Ajax tank was meant to revolutionise modern warfare – but after a succession of setbacks, is it now destined for the scrap heap.

There is a saying in the arms business about how some deals get done: ‘a conspiracy of optimism’. It’s a term for the bargains that are struck when military men dreaming of revolutionary new kit meet manufacturers desperate to land what might be the only contract for decades.
Neither side wants to dwell on limitations of design or problems that have derailed past procurements. Instead, the soldiers ask for the earth and manufacturers promise they can deliver it, on time and on budget.

It tends not to work that way. This year the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which evaluates the Government’s major spending plans, analysed 52 projects underway at the MoD, worth a total of £194.7 billion – about one and a half times the entire NHS budget. Of those 52, just three were given the green rating suggesting that ‘successful delivery appears highly likely’. Most, in the amber zone, are freighted with difficulties. And nine are flagged red, where ‘the project appears to be unachievable’.

These now include critical programmes like the Crowsnest helicopter surveillance programme; the production capability which builds the nuclear reactors for our Navy subs; a futuristic anti-ship weapon known as FCASW; the F35B Lightning combat jet; the Sea Venom anti-surface missile; and a communications system known as MoDnet Evolve.

In all, notes a recent Defence Select Committee report, attempts to equip Britain’s armed forces in the last two decades amount to ‘a woeful story of bureaucratic procrastination, military indecision, financial mismanagement and general ineptitude’. As a result, it goes on, if British soldiers had to go to war today, they would have to rely on ‘obsolete armoured vehicles… [be] very heavily outgunned by more modern missile and artillery systems and [be] chronically lacking in adequate air defence’.

Even amid this blizzard of failure, however, a single programme stands out, symbolising the nation’s procurement failings: Ajax.

Ajax, a type of light tank, has been repeatedly delayed. It was supposed to provide unparalleled protection to its crew, while delivering devastating fire through a 40mm cannon and hitting top speeds of 45mph. When one was finally delivered for trial in 2019 it shook so violently and was so noisy that it injured not the enemy but the personnel using it, with the vibrations also affecting the automatic loading of the cannon. Meanwhile billions of pounds of public money have so far been spent in return for not a single tank that the Army deems acceptable. According to a National Audit Office report, the project was ‘flawed from the start’.

Inside Britain's £5.5 billion military disaster

The Ajax tank was meant to revolutionise modern warfare – but after a succession of setbacks, is it now destined for the scrap heap?

www.telegraph.co.uk

PSPC: “Hold my beer and watch this!”

 

[Good2Golf]

PSPC: “Hold my beer and watch this!”

TBS: “Hold my cognac snifter…”

 

[GR66]

The problem is NOT Justin Trudeau; the problem wasn't Jean Chrétien nor was it Pierre Trudeau. The problem was and remains that we, the people of Canada, wanted and still want what our American neighbours and our European allies had and have: an advanced welfare state, but we didn't and still don't want to allow the sort of open, highly competitive, red in tooth and claw capitalism that characterizes the USA nor did we want pay European level taxes. We want something for nothing. We told the market researchers (pollsters) that in the early to mid 1960s. Neither John Diefenbaker nor Mike Pearson paid much attention; Jim Coutts and Keith Davey did and they advised Pierre Trudeau that his instinct - to try to abandon the US-led West and lead Canada, somehow, into the non-aligned group of nations, while politically naive was, essentially, what Canadians wanted ... this was the 1960s and '70s, remember, and Vietnam dominated the global narrative.

Nothing much has changed.

Partisan party politics isn't the problem.

View attachment 74869

Absolutely correct, but a smart military leadership would watch the winds of public opinion and time steps toward improving our military accordingly. The Ukraine conflict has ATGMs, AD Systems, small UAVs and Artillery (both tube and rocket) firmly in the public eye at the moment. All capabilities that are either completely missing or sorely deficient in our forces.

The CDS and everyone else in uniform with an opportunity to speak to our politicians and the general public should be drawing attention to the demonstrated importance of these systems and highlight our lack of them in order to get movement on these programs while there may be some increased public awareness and support.

Maritime human trafficing or illegal fishing in the news? We only have a handful of aging MPAs to patrol our vast coastal regions.

A warming arctic and increased foreign vessel traffic in the NW Passage increasing environmental risks along with a lack of basic infrastructure for our Inuit communities? Need improved airfields, port facilities and surveillance systems in the far North as well as all-terrain vehicles to get around.

The RCAF delivers aid to a disaster stricken country on the other side of the planet? With a few extra transport aircraft we could increase our lift capability and reduce the wear on our limited fleet of aircraft. Etc., etc., etc.

 

[WLSC]

Absolutely correct, but a smart military leadership would watch the winds of public opinion and time steps toward improving our military accordingly. The Ukraine conflict has ATGMs, AD Systems, small UAVs and Artillery (both tube and rocket) firmly in the public eye at the moment. All capabilities that are either completely missing or sorely deficient in our forces.

The CDS and everyone else in uniform with an opportunity to speak to our politicians and the general public should be drawing attention to the demonstrated importance of these systems and highlight our lack of them in order to get movement on these programs while there may be some increased public awareness and support.

Maritime human trafficing or illegal fishing in the news? We only have a handful of aging MPAs to patrol our vast coastal regions.

A warming arctic and increased foreign vessel traffic in the NW Passage increasing environmental risks along with a lack of basic infrastructure for our Inuit communities? Need improved airfields, port facilities and surveillance systems in the far North as well as all-terrain vehicles to get around.

The RCAF delivers aid to a disaster stricken country on the other side of the planet? With a few extra transport aircraft we could increase our lift capability and reduce the wear on our limited fleet of aircraft. Etc., etc., etc.

I don’t think the CDS is allowed to speech as freely as he wants about those things. Read the lines Chief, thank you.

 

[Spencer100]

In other news the government signed a contract with GDLS-C for the deverted LAVs to Ukraine to replace one for one. Can't post the news piece. Also said to be looking at AT-4 to replace the CGs.

 

[Quirky]

I don’t think the CDS is allowed to speech as freely as he wants about those things. Read the lines Chief, thank you.

What’s the government going to do, give him early retirement with a pension that’s more than 90% of Canadian household salaries? The horror. We need more GOFOs to say what needs to be said.

 

[dimsum]

The CDS and everyone else in uniform with an opportunity to speak to our politicians and the general public should be drawing attention to the demonstrated importance of these systems and highlight our lack of them in order to get movement on these programs while there may be some increased public awareness and support.

The CDS has been pretty vocal in the news about that lately.

 

[WLSC]

The CDS has been pretty vocal in the news about that lately.

Yes, but the MDN answers are always about the culture as her primary focus so, is vocal without being backed.

 

[Grimey]

As long as curling was on Tv or maybe HNIC most would not notice

^^^This. The part of the national consciousnes/pride that isn’t defined by “The Best Healthcare System in the World (TM)” is HNIC.

 

[GR66]

I don’t think the CDS is allowed to speech as freely as he wants about those things. Read the lines Chief, thank you.

There's ways of doing it without crossing the lines. In briefings, etc. he raises the issue directly. In public the issues can be discussed in a round about manner.

Public Affairs Officer on the nightly news: "Our CC-177's and their crews have been doing an amazing job making the 11 hour flight to the disaster area delivering the food and medical supplies that are so urgent at this critical moment. It's also been a herculean task for our maintenance crews and other supporters keeping this airlift going as with just five aircraft in the fleet and other important tasks to be done it puts a lot of strain on both our personnel and the equipment".

At the same time the CDS is privately briefing the Minister and the HOC Defence Committee on the wear and readiness effects on the fleet and projects what our expected airlift capacity would be in a full wartime deployment situation and what that means in terms of our ability to deploy and support our forces.

 

[WLSC]

There's ways of doing it without crossing the lines. In briefings, etc. he raises the issue directly. In public the issues can be discussed in a round about manner.

Public Affairs Officer on the nightly news: "Our CC-177's and their crews have been doing an amazing job making the 11 hour flight to the disaster area delivering the food and medical supplies that are so urgent at this critical moment. It's also been a herculean task for our maintenance crews and other supporters keeping this airlift going as with just five aircraft in the fleet and other important tasks to be done it puts a lot of strain on both our personnel and the equipment".

At the same time the CDS is privately briefing the Minister and the HOC Defence Committee on the wear and readiness effects on the fleet and projects what our expected airlift capacity would be in a full wartime deployment situation and what that means in terms of our ability to deploy and support our forces.

You’re probably right ans I know it can be done, It has been done effectively in the past. It all come back to the latitude the CAF have to discuss that with the population. Right now, I hear those messages out that much.

 

[RangerRay]

Could you just imagine the howls of outrage from the chattering classes if a Democrat Administration, one who the Liberal Party loves to emulate lets it be known that if Canada doesn't pull its weight in the defence of North America that the US will pull its support of keeping Canada in the G7.

There isn't enough beer and popcorn in the world to satisfy that amount of entertainment!

Obama did when he said “the world needs more Canada”. Unfortunately, it flew over most Canadians heads since he did go old school Chicago and beat us over the head with a two-by-four.

 

[Underway]

I'm calling BS on eviction from 5 Eyes and G7+1 (EU is the +1). They can't even kick the Russians out of the G20, and as far as Five Eyes are concerned the Kiwi's are probably first on the chopping block.

The G7 has Canada in it because the US wants another diplomatic foil against Europe. Five Eyes contributions from Canada also include massive bilateral deals with the US that go further than Five Eyes. US can't afford to cut those cords for their own security.

I'm not saying things were not said by the US, nor frustration being show, but there are threats and there are threats you can actually deliver on. But we'll see how things go with the new Defence Policy (expected in the New Year) and how that impacts the Fed budget in Feb.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm calling BS on eviction from 5 Eyes and G7+1 (EU is the +1). They can't even kick the Russians out of the G20, and as far as Five Eyes are concerned the Kiwi's are probably first on the chopping block.

You mean the little nation that already bought P-8s to remain serious ASW players, while we look to extend our aged platform out to 60-year lifecycle?

The G7 has Canada in it because the US wants another diplomatic foil against Europe. Five Eyes contributions from Canada also include massive bilateral deals with the US that go further than Five Eyes. US can't afford to cut those cords for their own security.

By “massive” you mean the US share of the “bi”-lateral relationship? The US could cease all bilats with Canada tomorrow and the morning hiccups will be done by afternoon.

I'm not saying things were not said by the US, nor frustration being show, but there are threats and there are threats you can actually deliver on. But we'll see how things go with the new Defence Policy (expected in the New Year) and how that impacts the Fed budget in Feb.

That’s a classically Canadian view that isn’t shared by many south of the border.

I actually heard a not-uninformed American posit that it seemed that some Canadians wanted to play the ‘Fuck Around and Find Out’ game…

 

[Booter]

What’s the government going to do, give him early retirement with a pension that’s more than 90% of Canadian household salaries? The horror. We need more GOFOs to say what needs to be said.

Except there is always a bankrupt second rank that is willing to step up and say whatever they want. If a GOFO Did that they would Be out- and a new guy in- explaining how the other guy was wrong. You don’t have enough depth of integrity at the senior ranks next to
Politics to have that happen.

 

[Kirkhill]

next group photo of the NATO leaders put Trudeau on the outer edge and then crop him out in the press release

For the record the Money Men in Britain just fired the last two sitting Prime Ministers who wanted to increase defence spending. Boris wanted 2.5% and Liz wanted 3%, All the other candidates popular with the Tory Party also all wanted a big defence budget.

The new guy is saying 2% is good enough.....

 

[Kirkhill]

My opinion - worth exactly what you're paying for it - is that no matter what President Biden (and, indeed, other world leaders say or (in the cases of e.g. Kim Jong-un and Ali Khamenei) do) Canadian voters will find it very hard to support any substantial action to make Canada more powerful ... militarily. It is also my opinion that that overwhelming majority of Canadian does not understand that there is an important, unbreakable nexus between hard and soft power. It is great to have soft power - the more the better - but Joseph Nye himself pointed out that soft power works only when the country wielding it has demonstrated that it has and is wiling to use enough hard power to make its voice heard.

I know I'm repeating myself, but both the Conservative and Liberal parties know that Canadians oppose rebuilding our military - they poll assiduously and they ask hard question; they want to know what we think; and we, most Canadians (my guess is 60%+ of us) tell them, over and over again, that we don't like the idea of Canada using military power and, therefore, don't want Canada to have much military power; they certainly, by and even larger percentage, don't want to see their taxes go up our their entitlements go down not pay for it.

I don't know how Pierre Poilievre could sell rebuilding Canada's military to his own party, much less to the country at large. I'm about 99.9% certain that Justin Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland would find the notion totally impossible.

The best option, I'm thinking is dual function civil-military assets. Buy milspec kit for civvy applications (air, sea and cyber monitoring) that both civvy and milspec kit can plug into.

Example cited previously is airspace protection against wandering pilots, birds and UAVs.

 

[ueo]

Should the RCN still be operating the MCDVs, which were supposed to get paid off to free up people for the AOPs? Has the RCN been beating on the fleet like rentals for over a decade and never scheduling long enough work periods to get the required maintenance done?

The RCN has been ignoring this my entire career and it's just in a death spiral at this point. Martechs are at 50-60% PMLs on the coasts, that's insane, and it's continuing to get worse as the RCN keeps the pedal down on the OPSCHED.

Even before the CDS order they should have been begging to slow things down. Instead they are still planning on RAMPING UP TRAINING to a level higher than we've ever acheived, despite numerous instructor billets being empty, major maintenance needed to the schools and a general lack of throughput capacity..

Institutionally completely out of touch. So either CRCN and staff is getting their arses shined on or they are just ignoring reality, and not sure which is worse.

So go the others!