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Hamas invaded Israel 2023

abduly85 said:
And congrats to you and other posters for using the same argument used by Hitler to justify exterminating the Jews.
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What? Looks like Hitler was just trying to be helpful. He's talking about other countries being generous, giving practical aid, and even setting them up on luxury ships.
It's just like the Palestinians not hating the Jews - which is super accurate and believable.

abduly85 said:
The Palestinian cause was never anti-Jewish, it's simply anti-occupation regardless of its ethnicity or religion.
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abduly85 said:
The Palestinian cause was never anti-Jewish, it's simply anti-occupation regardless of its ethnicity or religion.
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Never?

Hmm.

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews andkill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and therocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behindme, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

So the people elected Hamas when that was in their charter no?

Here is some more light reading on that.

 
Funny how you don't write about the oppression of the Palestinians by the Ottomans. They were right bastards and despised Arabs. The UK was pretty generous to the Arabs post WWI and rewarded them with land and titles, not to mention Mecca. If you look at the census data from the Ottoman period to 1947, you see there is a major increase in population under the British Mandate, both the Arab and Jewish populations increased at roughly the same rate during that time. The Brits took over a messy situation post WWI and tried to improve it. Within the UK were two opposing camps, the pro-Zionist and the pro-Arab. In the end the Brits tried to come up with a workable solution. It was the Arab Leaders that were going to have none of that. It was intolerable to have Jews on equal footing as a Muslim, that really is the crux of the matter. Jews and Christians can exist in Islamic lands as long as they know their place. Islam must always be on top.
The Israelis despite their failings, gave the Palestinians Gaza to show the world what they could do. The Palestinians could have invested in their people and made Gaza a significant player economically and made it that the Israeli would want to engage with them on a equal footing. Instead they raced to the bottom of the toilet. Not only attacking Israel ever chance they got, but also oppressing and abusing their own people. The Palestinians have shown all of us what they would do if given another chance at a State and it will not be pretty.
As for the ethnic cleansing charge, as many Palestinian within the region live outside of Gaza and the WB as are inside. The massive increase in population both in Gaza and WB , shows there was never any ethnic cleansing. The problem now is that the Palestinians on Oct 7th have shown their hand and have publicly stated that they have no intention of peacefully co-existent with Israel and will attempt to destroy Israel every chance they get.
 
Colin Parkinson said:
Funny how you don't write about the oppression of the Palestinians by the Ottomans. They were right bastards and despised Arabs. The UK was pretty generous to the Arabs post WWI and rewarded them with land and titles, not to mention Mecca. If you look at the census data from the Ottoman period to 1947, you see there is a major increase in population under the British Mandate, both the Arab and Jewish populations increased at roughly the same rate during that time. The Brits took over a messy situation post WWI and tried to improve it. Within the UK were two opposing camps, the pro-Zionist and the pro-Arab. In the end the Brits tried to come up with a workable solution. It was the Arab Leaders that were going to have none of that. It was intolerable to have Jews on equal footing as a Muslim, that really is the crux of the matter. Jews and Christians can exist in Islamic lands as long as they know their place. Islam must always be on top.
The Israelis despite their failings, gave the Palestinians Gaza to show the world what they could do. The Palestinians could have invested in their people and made Gaza a significant player economically and made it that the Israeli would want to engage with them on a equal footing. Instead they raced to the bottom of the toilet. Not only attacking Israel ever chance they got, but also oppressing and abusing their own people. The Palestinians have shown all of us what they would do if given another chance at a State and it will not be pretty.
As for the ethnic cleansing charge, as many Palestinian within the region live outside of Gaza and the WB as are inside. The massive increase in population both in Gaza and WB , shows there was never any ethnic cleansing. The problem now is that the Palestinians on Oct 7th have shown their hand and have publicly stated that they have no intention of peacefully co-existent with Israel and will attempt to destroy Israel every chance they get.
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Colin, I'm not sure the Gaza region could have become a significant economic player. I may be incorrect, but I believe there is little in the way of natural resources on/under the land or sea to develop. If it were not for significant aid influx, it would not even be able to support its population.
 
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Staff Weenie said:
Colin, I'm not sure the Gaza region could have become a significant economic player. I may be incorrect, but I believe there is little in the way of natural resources on/under the land or sea to develop. If it were not for significant aid influx, it would not even be able to support its population.
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Beaches. If it wasn’t for the western hating population, it could be a big tourist destination.
 
TacticalTea said:
And therein lies the problem with foreign aid.

Screws the local economy like nothing else.
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Not just the economy. It creates ripples and dependency throughout the socio-cultural spectrum - in some ways it creates learned helplessness. Short term foreign aid can address the emergency needs, but moving past that everything needs to focus on building long term self-sufficiency.

In this case, that plays against my earlier comment that other states in the region don't want a self-sufficient and stable Gaza or West Bank. Happy, well fed, educated people with a bright future don't really want to blow themselves up in a marketplace.
 
KevinB said:
Beaches. If it wasn’t for the western hating population, it could be a big tourist destination.
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Depends on what's in the water and what else there is to do. People can only do so much sitting on the sand before they want to swim, snorkel, scuba, surf, go to night clubs, etc. If the sea bottom is shallow and sterile it's not very interesting for some of those. If the local religious authorities frown on revelry, more options are closed off.
 
abduly85 said:
Nice try.
Why should the Palestinians leave their land in the first place? They are indigenous to it (and note the difference between indigenous and ancestral).
Israel (and Britain historically) created this historic injustice on the Palestinians and they shall own it. You pushing the point that Arab neighbours should take them in is irrelevant...it's still considered ethnic cleansing (a war crime that surprisingly many posters here are advocating!)

And congrats to you and other posters for using the same argument used by Hitler to justify exterminating the Jews. After the US and 30 other countries failed during the Évian conference to agree on accepting Jewish refugees fleeing the Third Reich he said:
"I can only hope and expect that the other world, which has such deep sympathy for them (Jews), will at least be generous enough to convert this sympathy into practical aid. We, on our part, are ready to put all them at the disposal of these countries, for all I care, even on luxury ships"
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To be clear, I've never advocated for the forced relocation (i.e. ethnic cleansing) of the Palestinians from Gaza (or the WB), but I do echo the sentiment that it is...odd that the vehemently "pro-Palestinian" Arab neighbors have not volunteered to take on refugees who willingly choose to flee the violence in Gaza.
 
Staff Weenie said:
Colin, I'm not sure the Gaza region could have become a significant economic player. I may be incorrect, but I believe there is little in the way of natural resources on/under the land or sea to develop. If it were not for significant aid influx, it would not even be able to support its population.
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There are sizeable natural gas deposits underwater off the coast of Gaza.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Depends on what's in the water and what else there is to do. People can only do so much sitting on the sand before they want to swim, snorkel, scuba, surf, go to night clubs, etc. If the sea bottom is shallow and sterile it's not very interesting for some of those. If the local religious authorities frown on revelry, more options are closed off.
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Dubia enters the chat.

Looking at some of the maps to does seem fairly shallow - so not sure it would be that interesting until one goes out a ways. But it would be good swimming and boating. That said, I know some folks who have dove there "for work" and said it would be a fantastic place to dive recreationally. So I'm guessing it does have variations that aren't on this map.
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Before Hamas made a muck up of it, there was a lot of potential. But when you rip up infrastructure for rocket tubes, and abuse and threaten the population also creating a culture of hate and intolerance - well what do you get...
 
Lumber said:
To be clear, I've never advocated for the forced relocation (i.e. ethnic cleansing) of the Palestinians from Gaza (or the WB), but I do echo the sentiment that it is...odd that the vehemently "pro-Palestinian" Arab neighbors have not volunteered to take on refugees who willingly choose to flee the violence in Gaza.
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But are they really pro-Palestinian? In the past, most of them have been, but is that still true?

I think many Arab states have recognized that Iran is a common enemy that they share with Israel, and Iran is far more aggressive and unpredictable. At this point they may have more to gain from cooperation with Israel than from continued enmity. Certainly, Arab-Israeli peace and cooperation has generally trended favorably over the last 20 years. The exceptions are Hamas and Hezbollah, two IRGC-backed terror groups.

Hamas' October attacks seem to have been timed, at least in part, to prevent the normalization of Saudi-Israeli relations.

The Arab governments also have problems with internal legitimacy, or outright insurgency, and pulling in large numbers of Palestinians with a history of Intifidah would come with quite a bit of risk.

Note that there are some differences here between the general public in Arab countries and their governments. The Arab governments still have to pander to the "Arab street" and be careful about how they handle things in the public eye. But they haven't been going out of their way to help the Palestinians, and they certainly did support the Israelis when Iran launched that drone/missile attack a while ago.
 
Staff Weenie said:
Colin, I'm not sure the Gaza region could have become a significant economic player. I may be incorrect, but I believe there is little in the way of natural resources on/under the land or sea to develop. If it were not for significant aid influx, it would not even be able to support its population.
Click to expand...
There is a gas field off the coast they could have worked with the Israelis to gain from. But the real resource would their people, by focusing on education and creating a favourable banking and regulatory regime, they could make themselves very economically viable and would have both Israel and Egyptian wanting to work with them. It would have also given a way forward for the WB to operate as well. But they chose poorly.
 
Rudburg said:
... I think many Arab states have recognized that Iran is a common enemy that they share with Israel, and Iran is far more aggressive and unpredictable ...
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That might also be why they don't do more to help Israel - don't want to piss off the crankiest neighbour in the 'hood?
Rudburg said:
... The Arab governments also have problems with internal legitimacy, or outright insurgency, and pulling in large numbers of Palestinians with a history of Intifidah would come with quite a bit of risk ...
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True.
 
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