Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

I'm more a TSN fan...

I suspect the 212CD might be a hard sell, if they can't actually fit us into the build schedule.

Plus there are no 212CD in the water yet. The KS-III also displaces 1,000 more tons, meaning more space for crew, systems, stores and fuel.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Plus there are no 212CD in the water yet. The KS-III also displaces 1,000 more tons, meaning more space for crew, systems, stores and fuel.

The build timelines for the 212CD SHOULD be a non-starter for us.
If we choose this sub its got to be because the Gov is trying to curry favour with the Euros and gain entrance into the 'ReArm' initiative and is not looking to have multiple subs in the water before 2035.

 

[KevinB]

I just want something that can leave Halifax, operate for a month or two in the Arctic and then return to Halifax on its own.

So a Virginia class SSN you say…

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you want Canada to get serious and buy something, you need one of these.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If you want Canada to get serious and buy something, you need one of these.

View attachment 93223
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LOL - so does that mean we are buying the M10 Booker as a replacement for the Leo's?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If you want Canada to get serious and buy something, you need one of these.

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Been there! Done That!


(If you didn't know, those are Oberon class).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

At the height of the Cold War, the UK operated between 12 and 14 diesel subs, so 12 diesel subs is a not an inconsequential number. Whether these subs are Korean or European is irrelevant. Twelve would make us one of the largest NATO non-nuke sub operator. This means we could very well become the leader in that field and run NATO's non-nuke Perisher, providing the Masters for such course, just as we used to be NATO's ASW school and provide the masters in that field in the old days. Again, that would be a not insignificant contribution to European security.

 

[PrairieFella]

LOL - so does that mean we are buying the M10 Booker as a replacement for the Leo's?

Please don't give them any ideas.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Been there! Done That!


(If you didn't know, those are Oberon class).

Since Taiwan is building new subs, maybe we can pickup their 2nd hand subs.

 

[Czech_pivo]

At the height of the Cold War, the UK operated between 12 and 14 diesel subs, so 12 diesel subs is a not an inconsequential number. Whether these subs are Korean or European is irrelevant. Twelve would make us one of the largest NATO non-nuke sub operator. This means we could very well become the leader in that field and run NATO's non-nuke Perisher, providing the Masters for such course, just as we used to be NATO's ASW school and provide the masters in that field in the old days. Again, that would be a not insignificant contribution to European security.

12 is what a reasonably informed individual would expect from a country that has the world's longest coastline and encompasses 3 of the worlds 5 oceans.

 

[KevinB]

24 SSN is what a reasonably informed individual would expect from a country that has the world's longest coastline and encompasses 3 of the worlds 5 oceans.

FIFY

 

[PrairieFella]

FIFY

I don't think you guys could even afford to buy 24 SSN at once considering that'd be $150,000,000,000ish haha

 

[KevinB]

I don't think you guys could even afford to buy 24 SSN at once considering that'd be $150,000,000,000ish haha

No my point was to realistically patrol Canada oceans and have a few for global usage that is the sort of thing you’d need.

5.3B / boat plus infrastructure, it would be a significant cost. Your 150B number is pretty close.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

At the height of the Cold War, the UK operated between 12 and 14 diesel subs, so 12 diesel subs is a not an inconsequential number. Whether these subs are Korean or European is irrelevant. Twelve would make us one of the largest NATO non-nuke sub operator. This means we could very well become the leader in that field and run NATO's non-nuke Perisher, providing the Masters for such course, just as we used to be NATO's ASW school and provide the masters in that field in the old days. Again, that would be a not insignificant contribution to European security.

I keep coming back to manning. Aren’t they currently in the situation where guys have to double back to sea duty because of pers shortages? What happens when we get 12 more boats? Or all those ships carney promised? I realise not everything will be in the water at once, but still.

 

[KevinB]

I keep coming back to manning. Aren’t they currently in the situation where guys have to double back to sea duty because of pers shortages? What happens when we get 12 more boats? Or all those ships carney promised? I realise not everything will be in the water at once, but still.

I think that’s true for the surface fleet, but isn’t only one of the Vic’s actually able to do anything these days?
Looking at the sea days for the sub fleet over the past few years, one would get more time on a jet ski rental…

Also not sure who wants to go below the sea in an aging boat that the RCN got at a scrap yard.

New boats with amenities, I think you would find a lot more interest.

 

[PrairieFella]

I keep coming back to manning. Aren’t they currently in the situation where guys have to double back to sea duty because of pers shortages? What happens when we get 12 more boats? Or all those ships carney promised? I realise not everything will be in the water at once, but still.

There's a huge navy recruiting push at the moment. That and once the kit shows up, there could be a spike. Build it and they will come. Here's to hoping at least.

 

[Navy_Pete]

There's a huge navy recruiting push at the moment. That and once the kit shows up, there could be a spike. Build it and they will come. Here's to hoping at least

We didn't get any big recruiting push when the CPFs rolled in, and we haven't really with AOPs; the COA of hope hasn't worked for a few decades, why would it work now? We're down to a sub crew and a bit, 5 or 6 ish CPF crews, and still iffy where JSS 2 crew is coming from, with key trades still falling. New kit might interest people in signing up, but getting used and abused with jetty hopping won't keep them in.

Even with cutting standards on training, cutting a lot of actual training and cosolidating trades we have only slowed down the bleeding. If they doubled recruits coming in, we'd still have a lot of people sitting on PAT because the schools are another bottleneck, and we've only really shrunk our effective training capacity and gotten rid of external traiing options (like some college programs).

Some things are getting stood up again, but you can't create schools overnight, you can't create instructors, training programs or training platforms overnight, so the RCN really needs to stop hoping shit will get better and take real concrete steps to realistic start fixing things. It's not sexy, and none of it is innovative or rocket surgery, but you can't massively understaff the training facilities, not have adequate TDO support, and still operate WW2 era buildings full of asbestos and then expect the training system to be able to somehow surge when it's at capacity to just keep up.

 

[Maxman1]

We didn't get any big recruiting push when the CPFs rolled in

That coincided with the cuts and decade of darkness from the Chretien government.

 

[quadrapiper]

We didn't get any big recruiting push when the CPFs rolled in, and we haven't really with AOPs; the COA of hope hasn't worked for a few decades, why would it work now? We're down to a sub crew and a bit, 5 or 6 ish CPF crews, and still iffy where JSS 2 crew is coming from, with key trades still falling. New kit might interest people in signing up, but getting used and abused with jetty hopping won't keep them in.

Even with cutting standards on training, cutting a lot of actual training and cosolidating trades we have only slowed down the bleeding. If they doubled recruits coming in, we'd still have a lot of people sitting on PAT because the schools are another bottleneck, and we've only really shrunk our effective training capacity and gotten rid of external traiing options (like some college programs).

Some things are getting stood up again, but you can't create schools overnight, you can't create instructors, training programs or training platforms overnight, so the RCN really needs to stop hoping shit will get better and take real concrete steps to realistic start fixing things. It's not sexy, and none of it is innovative or rocket surgery, but you can't massively understaff the training facilities, not have adequate TDO support, and still operate WW2 era buildings full of asbestos and then expect the training system to be able to somehow surge when it's at capacity to just keep up.

Would one of the more crapulous CPFs travelling up and down the BC coast as a training ship be useful?

 

[deepblue202]

Well since we only have 6 CPF's should we just retire the worst 6 and maybe buy 4 to 6 light ASW frigates from South Korea I assume they could pump those out in a few years.