OldSolduer
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Canadian River Class Destroyer Megathread
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I was told the same thing when I joined the Canadian Armyu and that was back in the mid-70's.
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The Royal Navy also specifically told us not to do what we did, because they had and it didn't work, but we knew better somehow.
@dapaterson I think the mobilisation mindset they use really only works if you can rapidly mobilize, which they kind of can if they bring a lot of their mothballed ships back into service.
With how long big ships take to build, and the complexity of modern weapon systems, I don't think that really works for anyone in practice, so having a mix of highly trained people, with some very basic trained people and a lot of small, simpler ships is more realistic, and what some our our allies like the Swedes seem to do.
The operators don't like to admit it, but if you can actually automate most of the detect to engage sequence, if you are willing to accept you'll miss some detection, and may splash some friendlies, but some ways to reduce training there.
For other trades we've already really scaled back on the maintenance side of things, without being smart enough to augment with extra shore support, but more common in small ships to have essentially juniour maintainers running the machinery plant, with a lot of automation and no real combat survivability, so a lot of it depends on your expectations. Cheap ships that people can operate with limited training can still put a lot of effective munitions down range, and probably also harder to target a group of them then one big expensive ship. I think the Iranians have a lot of small boats like that, where it's essentially a jacked up RHIB with a few anti ship missiles, but they have a whack of them they can get to run in at one time. Much simpler as well if you are just doing coastal defence/local area denial vice force projection, so really all depends what you want the Navy to be able to do independently.
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I'm not sure if other trades had mobilization MOCs/MOSIDs but Ammo Tech did/has. I would require an expansion of trainers, but the lesson plans and course structures were there. We would have three trades, one focused on guided weapons, and...I believe one focused on storage and inspection, and a third focused on lab work and disposal. Details on the division of tasks may be fuzzy, but the process was there. We couldn't have the mobilization structure in place during peace time because there wasn't the establishment.
There are many problems with the training system, but complaining that we don't train 3 times as many people as we do is pointless when we don't have billets to put those people. Planning to train three times as many people is what is possible.
There are many problems with the training system, but complaining that we don't train 3 times as many people as we do is pointless when we don't have billets to put those people. Planning to train three times as many people is what is possible.
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Ok I was reading the wiki article on this class, and this really stuck out to me:Some interesting points coming out of Australia's decision to buy 11 frigates from Japan in a VERY quick timeline.
The stated capabilities of these frigates from Japan are second to none.
With a full-load displacement of 6,200 tonnes, it’s much larger than and has important technical advantages over its German competitor, the 3,700-tonne TKMS Meko A-200. Most notably, the upgraded Mogami has 32 vertical-launch system (VLS) missile cells, double the number in the Meko A-200. Each of the seven remaining ships of the 3,600-tonne Anzac class has only eight VLS cells.
The Mark 41 VLS cells on the upgraded Mogami frigate are of a large type, called ‘strike length’. This means the ships can potentially carry Tomahawk land-attack cruise missiles, though, officially, Australia plans to load such weapons only on Hobart-class destroyers. Again, having lots of cells is helpful.
Another advantage of the upgraded Mogami frigate is the smallness of its crew, just 90 people, thanks to extensive automation. The A-200 needs 120, and the Anzac class, which the upgraded Mogami class will replace, about 180. As the Royal Australian Navy struggles to recruit and retain personnel, the leaner complement of the upgraded Mogami design will help keep ships ready for service.
The Mogami also has a longer design operational life of 40 years versus 30 years for the Meko A-200—though making use of that will depend on how naval technology will develop during the ships’ years of service.
Currently, the Navy operates seven Anzac-class frigates after one was decommissioned in May 2024. These ships, built between 1996 and 2006, have recently undergone modernisation but are nearing the end of their operational life.
Australia chooses big, heavily armed Japanese frigates | The Strategist
If all goes to plan, Australia will receive its first made-in-Japan frigate in 2029. The choice of the upgraded Mogami design of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, announced today, means the Royal Australian Navy will replace its ...www.aspistrategist.org.au
To accelerate the programme, the first three Mogami frigates for Australia will be built in Japan, with the first expected to be delivered in 2029 and entering service in 2030. Subsequent ships will be constructed at the Henderson Maritime Precinct in Western Australia.
Australia ups defense spending amid China's military buildup
Australia announced a major restructuring of its military in 2023, turning towards long-range strike capabilities to better respond to China's military expansion.
It is striving to expand its fleet of major warships from 11 to 26 over the next 10 years.
The deal is Japan's first warship export since before World War II and only its second major defense package sold abroad.
Australia says the first three general-purpose frigates will be built offshore, with the remainder built in Western Australia.
Misubishi Heavy Industries has never built warships in a foreign country, The Australian wrote.
Australia to buy 11 advanced warships from Japan – DW – 08/05/2025
Japan has beat a German company to win a contract for 11 frigates in what will be its biggest-ever postwar foreign defense contract.www.dw.com
The government's decision is a major victory for Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) and for Japan, which has thrown substantial political resources into securing the bid.
It is also a vote of confidence in MHI, which has never built warships overseas before.
"This is clearly the biggest defence industry agreement that will ever have been struck between Japan and Australia. In fact, it's really one of the biggest defence exports that Japan has ever engaged in."
Mr Marles said the first would come into service by the end of this decade, closing a gap that would have otherwise meant Australia would not receive a new surface combatant until 2034, when the first of the Hunter Class vessels would arrive.
While the government insists it was making the decision on capability alone, Japan has leaned heavily on the blossoming strategic and defence relationship between the two countries as it lobbied for the contract.
The United States is also believed to have backed Japan's bid, and Mr Conroy said on Tuesday the decision to select MHI would "reassure our allies, deter our adversaries and make Australia safer".
Japan's prime minister welcomed the decision on social media, promising the two countries would "work together — across both government and industry — to move toward the conclusion of the contract".
I find that sentence above telling - as the Japanese specifically stated that they had zero interest in bidding on our Sub contract for a dozen new subs, a contract that would have been substantially much more lucrative in terms of time/money when compared to this frigate contract. Maybe the Japanese didn't want to share their IP on the subs with us or anyone, maybe the timelines don't line up in terms of deliveries, maybe the US specifically told the Japanese NOT to bid on our contract or maybe the Japanese don't take us as being serious about this project, knowing that the Australians are actually serious about defence and have been actively upgrading/expanding their capabilities over the last 5-8yrs.
Australia picks Japan to build $10b frigates after fierce contest
Japanese shipbuilder Mitsubishi Heavy Industries wins a fierce contest to build the Australian navy's new fleet of warships, beating a bid from German rival ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems.www.abc.net.au
"At Sea Air Space 2019, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries revealed their 'Advanced Integrated CIC' for the vessel. It will combine the wheelhouse, the managing and situational awareness room, the engine and power control room, and combat information center within a large 360-degree circular screen wall.[24] It can display panoramic views around the ship without a blind spot on the screen and will utilize augmented reality technology to discriminate among the objects shown and to navigate the ship.[23] This allows the crew to operate under a Total Ship Crew System (TSCS) where navigation, steering and ship management is centralized into one area.[25]"
So they'll manage navigation, situational awareness, weapon and sensor employment, and engineering plant control, all from a single room with a massive 360 degree screen? I need to see this...
KevinB
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I believe they have multiple work stations as well for specific things, the large screen can show the outside in 360, or segments of it can can be used to put up data from the various stations as well.
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Found a picture. While "cool", This just seems like an inefficient use of space... except that I suppose if this is both your CIC and MCR, I guess it might actually be an efficient use of space...
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Live long and prosper
Oldgateboatdriver
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Assuming that the "managing and situational awareness" thing is what we call Integrated Platform management and Navigation, respectively, that would mean that we have the engineers, the bosns and OOW all co-located in the CIC (I hope that there is still a bridge with actual lookouts, just in case). Does that mean that you now have to make sure all these engineers and bosn have a top secret security clearance, because they are in the CIC?
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From what I understand, the small gun on the AOPs is almost identical to one already in use by the Army so maybe don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Sure some Navy folks would be really happy to do TD in Borden or wherever for a training course, and seems like an odd spot where everyone gets treated like an untrained private again, but if the training kit and course material are already on site, that would at least tick the box for infra and facility to support the courses. Aside from that sure there are a lot of tips and tricks we could learn from the army folks that have already been using it and fixing it, as the delta for marinizing it is probably pretty small.
KevinB
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KevinB
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In general most people already need level 2 clearance just for controlled goods/ITAR, but even level 3 won't catch this if it comes up after the screening.
This is the kind of situation where you need some kind of active surveillance or reporting, but sounds like these idiots are well known so wouldn't be surprised if someone reported this to the CoC or elsewhere.
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Um, what?
KevinB
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Seems like an intended reply to another thread got tacked on.
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Yeah, sorry, posted on wrong thread, was talking about the security clearance catching something like the idiots in QC arrested for terrorism charges. If they start it after joining, security screening won't catch it, so needs active surveillance.
On the RCD, MCR and HQ1 are not incorporated into the CIC, there is just a repeater. That should give them access to things like the flight deck camera for normal helo ops, as well as other CCTV for FP situations, so expect that will be it's primary usage, but no one is going to be on watch there outside the dibs.
All the techs have level 2 for CG requirements, but really no need to know for most of the ops room stuff, and also would be distracting for everyone if they are doing normal or emergency situations in the Ops room. Plus for QoL having a stand alone MCR is good for the MSED.
KevinB
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What is that in non Naval speak
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Long ass explanation below, and not sure if there is an army equivalent. We have a whole doctrine set for all the stuff happening inside the ship (aka the internal battle) as well as what is going on outside the ship (external battle), which adds some extra on when in a task group or other external assets (like aircraft or land support). I guess one difference is that there is a baseline risk of things like onboard fires, floods and collisions at sea (or allisions alongside I guess) so there is a lot of things you do for peacetime sailing that army doesn't need to have a system in place for day to day routine operations.
MCR is the machinery control room, and where you run the machinery plant out of. Depends on the class, but you'll have some control consoles for monitoring as well as to be able to control things like propulsion, power generation and all the other machinery systems. You'll also have things like controls for ventilation and fitted fire suppression and flood systems, with SOPs for initial response.
For the control system, you'll see the acronym 'Integrated Platform Managment System (IPMS)', which is also used in commercial industry, but the L3 system was really developed off the original "Integrated Machinery Control System' (IMCS) which was a really innovative Canadian thing developed for the CPFs, and then retrofit onto the 280s that was a lot more interconnected then previous analogue and early digital setups on ships.
Because it's all digital, it's very easy to have duplicate displays all over the place, but for control purposes different locations are normally set up in a hierarchy with more limited control capabilities by default, and then different consoles in limited locations tailored for specific users. So the one on the bridge has some physical buttons for things like standard speed inputs, and the ones in the MCR have different hard and soft buttons for common functions and emergency things like a battle overide button that disables all the software safeties so you can run equipment to failure if necessary in an emergency to prevent worse stuff happening in emergencies.
Normal posture depends on the ship class, but typically on warships you will have some people on watch actively monitoring the plant in the MCR. On something like AOPs you won't have someone actively monitoring on watch unless you are doing something higher risk like a RAS or coming in and out of harbour, but your maintainers on watch will get notified something is wrong and will respond to that. Because it's a non-combatant you can safely automate that response for the most part, so will do things like switch over engines or generators automatically for you (assuming they are available). There is a lot less redundancy built in though, so really can't afford to go to sea with a lot of things not working.
HQ1 is the main headquarters during an emergency, and where the damage control officer DCO(usually the engineer) and damage control PO go to coordinate the fire/flood teams throughout the ship (usually set up with a forward and aft section base, plus a few others spread around for survivability), with the DCO is coordinating with the other departments doing first aid, helo ops and combat equipment support.
Usually co-located normally with the MCR, so that the DCO and DCPO can talk with the senior electrician and Chief Eng who is maintaining propulsion, but doesn't necessarily have to be.
There are alternate locations for both the MCR and HQ1, as well as some local control stations where you can drive the engines, switchboards, steering etc directly. Without the consoles you can still take the computer based systems and log in other spots, but without the interface and number of screens it's a lot harder to do.
Because we've intergrated a lot of things, you can do things like pull up all the CCTV feeds, monitor the power plant, and track the damage control overlay so with a few big screens you can track and do a lot of things from the same spot. With the different log ins and hierarchy, you can set it up so you can get screens to just monitor only, and that's usually how it's set up for the combat operators (aka dibs) so they can watch things like the flight deck camera, but can't accidentally trip a propulsion engine or whatever.
One challenge for all this is that you now have access to a huge amount of live data and can be on a lot of comm channels at the same time, so we put a lot of effort into things like the human machine interface, comms setups etc, so that the people doing the 'internal battle' and 'external battle' can focus on their bit, with some people coordinating/monitoring between them but it's something that takes a lot of individual and collective training to actually get good at, so why we do a lot of continual training, and if you get too many postings some of the collective qualifications are voided.
Oldgateboatdriver
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If Kevin didn't get it after that, then there's just no explaining. It was crystal clear. 
BTW Kevin, for those "remote" location Navy_Pete is talking about, think Star Trek TNG with Geordy (as the chief engineer) coming unto the bridge, going to one of the side consoles and saying "Computer, transfer engineering to bridge". That's how it is on the Halifax class right now. There are touch screens computers in various places that the engineers with the proper access codes can access and use to operate most of the platforms systems if and when away from the actual MCR compartment.
BTW Kevin, for those "remote" location Navy_Pete is talking about, think Star Trek TNG with Geordy (as the chief engineer) coming unto the bridge, going to one of the side consoles and saying "Computer, transfer engineering to bridge". That's how it is on the Halifax class right now. There are touch screens computers in various places that the engineers with the proper access codes can access and use to operate most of the platforms systems if and when away from the actual MCR compartment.
