Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[SeaKingTacco]

No clue where to put this and the site seems to no longer let me search, but the attached popped up in my news feeds. It might be old news.

I know nothing about the technology but it seems curious to my small brain that they need to buy a farm that is a grand total of 10 km (as the electronic beam flies) from CFB Borden where they have gobs of land they no longer use.

Proposed NORAD receiving site on the radar for Barrie area

As part of Canada’s $38.6-billion plan announced in 2022 to modernize North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) over the next two decades, the DND announced the selection of the first transmit and receive sites for the Arctic Over-the-Horizon Radar (A-OTHR) project on July 17

www.baytoday.ca

I am nearly certain that the “gobs of unused land” at Borden is neither gobs, nor unused.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I am nearly certain that the “gobs of unused land” at Borden is neither gobs, nor unused.

Its just seems 'off' that North Bay is where we located 'Arctic' radar transmit and receive sites.

 

[Kirkhill]

Its just seems 'off' that North Bay is where we located 'Arctic' radar transmit and receive sites.

Of course that is where the Arctic begins - 300 km north of Toronto and 300 km south of the 49th.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Of course that is where the Arctic begins - 300 km north of Toronto and 300 km south of the 49th.

I mean Minot, ND is farther north than North Bay. Why is that not a better location than North Bay?

 

[Blackadder1916]

I mean Minot, ND is farther north than North Bay. Why is that not a better location than North Bay?

Because Canada doesn't have authority to establish Canadian military bases in the United States and they would probably levy a tariff on the Australian radar system that we are buying.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Why pick points in the US? Trois-Rivieres, Quebec city, Bagotville, Sidney N.S., St-John's and every single point of every province from Manitoba (included) going West are North of North Bay.

The only people who think that North Bay is a Northern town all live in Southern Ontario (which, as everybody knows, dips South just about as far as the Northern most point of California.)

 

[Czech_pivo]

Why pick points in the US? Trois-Rivieres, Quebec city, Bagotville, Sidney N.S., St-John's and every single point of every province from Manitoba (included) going West are North of North Bay.

The only people who think that North Bay is a Northern town all live in Southern Ontario (which, as everybody knows, dips South just about as far as the Northern most point of California.)

I'm not suggesting picking any point in the US. I was trying to understand why North Bay was picked for the location of an 'Arctic' related radar base. I'm aware that its an existing CAF base but as noted, its no where near the north in Canada. Choosing Hearst or Kapuskasing or Cochrane, all aside a major hwy, are further north than North Bay.

 

[PrairieFella]

I'm not suggesting picking any point in the US. I was trying to understand why North Bay was picked for the location of an 'Arctic' related radar base. I'm aware that its an existing CAF base but as noted, its no where near the north in Canada. Choosing Hearst or Kapuskasing or Cochrane, all aside a major hwy, are further north than North Bay.

Dispersion maybe? It might seem more logical to put NORAD assets near CFB Winnipeg where the Canadian headquarters is but maybe they wanted to move some stuff around for targeting purposes?

Realistically though, some MP needed more jobs in their riding.

 

[GR66]

I'm not suggesting picking any point in the US. I was trying to understand why North Bay was picked for the location of an 'Arctic' related radar base. I'm aware that its an existing CAF base but as noted, its no where near the north in Canada. Choosing Hearst or Kapuskasing or Cochrane, all aside a major hwy, are further north than North Bay.

The receiving station mentioned in the article is actually down in the Barrie/CFB Borden area. The related transmission site is going to be in Kawartha Lakes, near Kirkfield.

The way the OTH radar works is it bounces signals off the ionosphere. The diagram in the article shows the basics. I'm certainly no radar specialist but it seems to me that to achieve greater detection distances you need to hit the ionosphere at a narrower angle meaning your transmitter/receiving stations need to be set fairly far back from the area you are searching. I'm assuming that the people responsible for setting up the system know what they are doing and have selected the locations that best suit the detection ranges they are trying to achieve.

As for the references to North Bay I'm assuming that NORAD's Canadian Air Defence Sector (CADS) located at CFB North Bay will be responsible for monitoring the OTH radar facilities.

 

[KevinB]

I'm not suggesting picking any point in the US. I was trying to understand why North Bay was picked for the location of an 'Arctic' related radar base. I'm aware that its an existing CAF base but as noted, its no where near the north in Canada. Choosing Hearst or Kapuskasing or Cochrane, all aside a major hwy, are further north than North Bay.

Ionosphere bounce.

Same reason Vint Hill VA was a Comms intercept site for years (WWII to after the Cold War).

Edit @GR66 beat me.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm assuming that the people responsible for setting up the system know what they are doing and have selected the locations that best suit the detection ranges they are trying to achieve.

No doubt, I was just curious how a difference of 10-ish km made such a difference that they had to buy land.

I am nearly certain that the “gobs of unused land” at Borden is neither gobs, nor unused.

I'm not privy to inside information but, outside of the Blackdown site, the ranges and the AD, it's a non-combat arms training base and the vast major of training is classroom. There are acres of bush with a few roads (the base is 22000 acres). I did a motorcycle training course there a number of years ago where we did some off-roading (the place is one big sandbox) and we were told at the time that nobody had been on some of those roads in years.

Unless things have changed.

 

[dapaterson]

No doubt, I was just curious how a difference of 10-ish km made such a difference that they had to buy land.

Depending on the requirements, extant flat terrain may be eminently preferable to rough terrain with UXO.

 

[lenaitch]

Depending on the requirements, extant flat terrain may be eminently preferable to rough terrain with UXO.

It's definitely flat but I never thought of the UXO.

 

[PrairieFella]

It's definitely flat but I never thought of the UXO.

Once upon a time Borden was the home of the RCAC, wasn't always a support trade training base.

 

[FJAG]

Both the schools of infantry and armour were there until 1970. When 3 CMBG was stood down and Gagetown became underpopulated both those schools and the artillery one from Shilo moved there. At the same time Meaford started to deteriorate. Meaford has been revitalized but IMHO, Borden could be put to much better use for nearby Toronto reserve units.

 

[ueo]

Both the schools of infantry and armour were there until 1970. When 3 CMBG was stood down and Gagetown became underpopulated both those schools and the artillery one from Shilo moved there. At the same time Meaford started to deteriorate. Meaford has been revitalized but IMHO, Borden could be put to much better use for nearby Toronto reserve units.

Been tried over and over, a school is the net result.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Been tried over and over, a school is the net result.

Real estate developers have their eye on it yet?

 

[dapaterson]

Real estate developers have their eye on it yet?

CFAD Angus is a bit of a deterrent.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

CAF Angus is a bit of a deterrent.

Thank the Gords that a CFAD is actually useful for something…

 

[GK .Dundas]

Thank the Gords that a CFAD is actually useful for something…

You're welcome.