3 RCR transfers to the Light Infantry Regiment

[RangerRay]

Im sure there will be plenty of arguments over what regiment gets brought back to the reg force. Im partial to the RHRC to have a regular force highland regiment again, and the FGH since they already have roots in western canada.

If they are going to reactivate any regiments for the RegF, wouldn’t they go further up the Order of Precedence like the QOR of C and 8CH first?

 

[Kilted]

If they are going to reactivate any regiments for the RegF, wouldn’t they go further up the Order of Precedence like the QOR of C and 8CH first?

Those units are not part of the Supplementary Order of Battle because their original units still exist and have never gone anywhere. The difference between Reg/Res doesn't really matter for the Supplementary Order of Battle. The 4PLDG were part of the reserves in Ottawa. Naming this Light Infantry "regiment" after another regiment would just make things confusing. It looks like they are trying to create the regimental structure similar to what the CAR had, without actually creating a new regiment. This is supper confussing, because the LIR is essentially a brigade.

 

[MilEME09]

Those units are not part of the Supplementary Order of Battle because their original units still exist and have never gone anywhere. The difference between Reg/Res doesn't really matter for the Supplementary Order of Battle. The 4PLDG were part of the reserves in Ottawa. Naming this Light Infantry "regiment" after another regiment would just make things confusing. It looks like they are trying to create the regimental structure similar to what the CAR had, without actually creating a new regiment. This is supper confussing, because the LIR is essentially a brigade.

Not really, from what ive seen, its just a standard 3 battalion regiment, no attached service battalion, arty, signals etc. Internal admin coy yes, but not full brigade level support.

 

[McG]

Not really, from what ive seen, its just a standard 3 battalion regiment, no attached service battalion, arty, signals etc. Internal admin coy yes, but not full brigade level support.

The presence of Artillery & Engineers is why Canada calls its maneuver formations as “Brigade Groups.” You don’t need these for a brigade (and all the CMBGs are loosing their artillery without a matching name change). A Service Battalion is also not a hard requirement for a brigade intended to fight as part of a division.

 

[MilEME09]

Those units are not part of the Supplementary Order of Battle because their original units still exist and have never gone anywhere. The difference between Reg/Res doesn't really matter for the Supplementary Order of Battle. The 4PLDG were part of the reserves in Ottawa. Naming this Light Infantry "regiment" after another regiment would just make things confusing. It looks like they are trying to create the regimental structure similar to what the CAR had, without actually creating a new regiment. This is supper confussing, because the LIR is essentially a brigade.

Those units had reserve elements before being taken from the reg force so I dont see how it would be an issue to bring them back

 

[MilEME09]

The presence of Artillery & Engineers is why Canada calls its maneuver formations as “Brigade Groups.” You don’t need these for a brigade (and all the CMBGs are loosing their artillery without a matching name change). A Service Battalion is also not a hard requirement for a brigade intended to fight as part of a division.

It is with the way our CSS is currently structured, a service battalion is the second line support to the brigade. Without it, you are going straight to the div level assets, sure you could do that, but they are much further back by doctrine. Calling 3 battalions a brigade without organic support to be self sufficient would require a conplete rewriting of our doctrine of Combat, CS and CSS

 

[McG]

CAMO requires our doctrine to be rewritten because we don’t have doctrine for the scope of what CAMO is building. It is really not a barrier to what can or cannot be called a brigade.

 

[Kirkhill]

Fantastic. We finally get an air assault brigade in time for it to be obsolete lmao

Not sure the helicopters are entirely obsolete. They are probably out of the F Echelon fight and maybe even the A Echelon. On the other hand they would be a pretty speedy B Echelon capable of supporting remote operations where the conventional enemy isn't.

 

[WestIsle]

The nice thing about bringing back the Rifles and PLDG is that their battle honours cant be stolen like is planned by regiments that opted to not sign up for either world war.

 

[Ostrozac]

The nice thing about bringing back the Rifles and PLDG is that their battle honours cant be stolen like is planned by regiments that opted to not sign up for either world war.

That’s already happened for the Royal Rifles of Canada. The Voltigeurs de Quebec have claimed the Royal Rifles battle honours of Hong Kong and South East Asia 1941 since 2019. The Voltigeurs spent WW2 as a home defence unit.

 

[Cloud Cover]

That’s already happened for the Royal Rifles of Canada. The Voltigeurs de Quebec have claimed the Royal Rifles battle honours of Hong Kong and South East Asia 1941 since 2019. The Voltigeurs spent WW2 as a home defence unit.

That has happened to the RRC twice since WW2.

 

[ArmyRick]

My prediction. There will be no new cap badge or creation/revival of a regiment. Its an LIR in formation. You really think the regimental mafias will allow the disappearance of their third battalions?

 

[Good2Golf]

Overall good to see that at least something is being done other that the traditional annual pilgrimage to/from the LFWGs… that’s a good thing. Scaling, capabilities, doctrine, TTPs and all can be refine/developed as things progress.

One defining principle of that era: Everything in the infantry battalion, including the M113s, Lynxes, Ferrets and Deuces, could all be transported by air in the fleet of 24 C130 Es purchased by Paul Hellyer in 1964. Another 6 were purchased later.

Concurrently purchased was a fleet of
8 CH-147 Chinooks (1973)
74 CH-136 Kiowas (1971)
50 CH-135 Twin Hueys (1968)
10 CH-118 Iroquois (1968)

IMHO the helicopters, while increasing tactical mobility, decreased strategic mobility, necessitating sealift.

That’s misguided ‘bucket of crabs’ thinking. Different roles. That’s like complaining that getting C7/8,9,6,16 decreased IDF.

Edit:

The Hercs could transport all the helicopters with the exception of the Chinooks. Some assembly required.

Edit 2:

Apparently the early Chinooks could be rigged to self-deploy over 2000 km.

‘Were rigged’ and flown… New Hooks same+

Those took a while to get to us. In 2 RCHA we were slinging L5s under Hueys and the C1s under Voyageurs until 1976 before they were given to the navy and turned into Labradors.

L5s under 135s in Pet at least until ‘93/94…

Fantastic. We finally get an air assault brigade in time for it to be obsolete lmao

Until it’s not obsolete. Its scale and capabilities that should continue to assess the operating environment and adjust as the OE (that Canada chooses and plans to operate in in the future) changes temporally and regionally.

Not sure the helicopters are entirely obsolete. They are probably out of the F Echelon fight and maybe even the A Echelon. On the other hand they would be a pretty speedy B Echelon capable of supporting remote operations where the conventional enemy isn't.

Were they ever in the conventional F Ech fight? Maybe rose-colour glasses with AOP in the 70s/80s, if truly ever.

 

[Kirkhill]

Overall good to see that at least something is being done other that the traditional annual pilgrimage to/from the LFWGs… that’s a good thing. Scaling, capabilities, doctrine, TTPs and all can be refine/developed as things progress.

That’s misguided ‘bucket of crabs’ thinking. Different roles. That’s like complaining that getting C7/8,9,6,16 decreased IDF.

Not arguing against helicopters being purchased. For domestic operations helicopters operating with light forces from regional bases made and make a lot of sense. I was only alluding to the ability to relocate force by means of air cargo. Hellyer's Hercs permitted the international movement of light infantry with some support. Moving helicopters internationally with Hercs seemed more challenging.

‘Were rigged’ and flown… New Hooks same+

Seen

L5s under 135s in Pet at least until ‘93/94…

Until it’s not obsolete. Its scale and capabilities that should continue to assess the operating environment and adjust as the OE (that Canada chooses and plans to operate in in the future) changes temporally and regionally.

Seen

Were they ever in the conventional F Ech fight? Maybe rose-colour glasses with AOP in the 70s/80s, if truly ever.

Arguably Canadian helos never were, FOOs in Kiowas and Kiowas with Minitats notwithstanding.

The Americans, on the otherhand, led the international charge to use helicopters in hot LZs and as flying tanks as well as deep strike assets. There doesn't seem to be as much enthusiasm for taking on those tasks as there used to be.

 

[McG]

Were they ever in the conventional F Ech fight? Maybe rose-colour glasses with AOP in the 70s/80s, if truly ever.

The echelon system is supposed to be internal to a land unit and, while it can be extrapolated to a brigade level, it stops making sense outside the manoeuvre & combat support units. So, helicopters would not have been part of an F Ech outside of the situation of a flight being attached to a BG.

 

[FJAG]

Were they ever in the conventional F Ech fight? Maybe rose-colour glasses with AOP in the 70s/80s, if truly ever.

I was going to make an earlier comment about the B Ech being irrelevant in any event. We're really talking 2nd and 3rd line logistics support . . . and even 1st line A Ech when you look at the cockamamy NSE structure that typified the early to mid Op Athena consolidation of all combat service support elements back in KAF thereby blending 1st and 2nd line support. There were numerous occasions when Chinooks brought emergency ammo to guns running out of ammo in mid fight. But that was a very unique environment and, IMHO, in light of the current situation, I think the CAF will definitely move away from that (if they have any sense at all).

Back in the day, we did extensively use both the Kiowa air OPs that you mentioned and both the Huey's and Voyageurs (later Chinooks) in what one could consider the F Ech and A Ech air assault, resupply and casevac roles. The way operations ran in Vietnam were a big influence at the time to us in Canada as well as the Americans. We even built a Khe Sanh-like fire base in Petawawa. That transferred easily into the FOB concept in Afghanistan and, based on some videos, the army aviation (especially ARNG ones) did some pretty ballsy work in resupplying FOBs and COPs under fire and air landing/extracting folks in contact.

The whole 1960s/1970s concept of the Airborne Regiment and the Combat Groups was to have light airborne and airmobile forces for numerous types of missions but primarily UN type missions in semi permissive environments against communist-oriented insurgents al la Africa. I think that was even true when the AVGPs were brought in. They were simultaneously tank and APC trainers for Europe and potentially deployable for UN ops.

I'm not sure how seriously anyone took to the idea of the airmobile concept in a NATO Europe although most of the time we exercised under guise of having, at a minimum, local air superiority. I know that at the time there was a big scheme floating around of building 4 CMBG into an anti-armour airmobile force (with attack helicopters and ground based TOWs) and making our contribution more of a rapid deployment, anti-armour/counter penetration force but that never really got off the ground.

At the end of the day I still see work for manned airmobile ops as emergency second-line sustainment and even some troop movement. For the first line role there should be a strong push to develop cheaper, more expendable unmanned UAVs and UGVs. My fear is that we are still buying equipment solely to equip the forces' basic TOE and have no plan to overbuy for combat casualty replacements. F and B Ech vehicles will atrit quickly and will require rapid replacement.

 

[vonGarvin]

If I were in charge, I would have made a Light Infantry "Regiment" and would have just called it "Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry". I would have made it a brigade instead, and would have given it an Arty Regiment, an Engineer Regiment, and a Cavalry (light recce?) Regiment. The other two brigades? No change, but I guess 1 CMBG would become 1 CLBG (?).

But since I'm not in charge, I'll just yell at clouds.


Also, dumb question: do we have doctrine for "light" units?

 

[PrairieFella]

If I were in charge, I would have made a Light Infantry "Regiment" and would have just called it "Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry". I would have made it a brigade instead, and would have given it an Arty Regiment, an Engineer Regiment, and a Cavalry (light recce?) Regiment. The other two brigades? No change, but I guess 1 CMBG would become 1 CLBG (?).

But since I'm not in charge, I'll just yell at clouds.


Also, dumb question: do we have doctrine for "light" units?

For the sake of discussion, how come?

What do we need to be able to do? What do we envision them doing they need a light cav regiment? Do they need arty? What kind of arty is appropriate for a light formation?

I dont have these answers but its an interesting conversation to be had.

 

[KevinB]

Fantastic. We finally get an air assault brigade in time for it to be obsolete lmao

Obsolete is a pretty hard call to make, and no more correct that those who claim the MBT/IFV is dead.
Air Assault always required SEAD and Air Supremacy, that definitely can be tough in a LSCO.


One should never use capabilities that aren’t suited to the situation - but that doesn’t mean you should not want certain niche capabilities.

For the sake of discussion, how come?

If the question is why PPCLI, the Light Infantry part of the name probably should mean something.

What do we need to be able to do?

Probably the #1 Question.

What do we envision them doing they need a light cav regiment?

I guess it depends on what the LtCav unit is.
battlefield range UAS and UGS stuff might be a Cavalry thing. Probably at least as much claim to them as any other trade

Do they need arty? What kind of arty is appropriate for a light formation?

M777, they can be towed by Hummers FWIW
If you want lighter: M119 105mm

I dont have these answers but its an interesting conversation to be had.

The proper questions need to be answered first.

Canada for years has cheaped out on vertical lift.
1) low numbers
2) questionable platforms
3) The CA being rather oblivious to what is needed, and the support.
4) The RCAF being less interested in green aviation that could take away from blue fast flying stuff

 

[PrairieFella]

Obsolete is a pretty hard call to make, and no more correct that those who claim the MBT/IFV is dead.
Air Assault always required SEAD and Air Supremacy, that definitely can be tough in a LSCO.

I know, but I couldnt leave the joke on the table lol.

One should never use capabilities that aren’t suited to the situation - but that doesn’t mean you should not want certain niche capabilities.

Agreed.

If the question is why PPCLI, the Light Infantry part of the name probably should mean something.

Not the topic of my how come haha.

Probably the #1 Question.

I guess it depends on what the LtCav unit is.

Its such a vague category. I constantly go back to the Second World War Reconnaissance Regiment for inspiration. Obviously its not 1-1 but the structure and variety of capabilities is interesting. Now what those platforms are in 2026 is a tough call.

www.canadiansoldiers.com

www.canadiansoldiers.com

www.canadiansoldiers.com

M777, they can be towed by Hummers FWIW
If you want lighter: M119 105mm

Those scorpion mortars out of singapore are cool for battalion fires. I wonder if there may be place for truck mounted 105 yet?