Canada to Spend $5.0Bil on AEW Aircraft (Saab Globaleye)

[KevinB]

If the US were to say their engines wont be allowed for Canada to use in the Gripen then Canada builds their own. If the electronics in the avionics are not allowed then Canada builds their own.

Maybe CAE limits what the US can use that is of their propriety, intellectual property. Then maybe the European and Canadian Defence industry starts to limit US Access to their knowledge and skills. (will put the hurt on them more then many of you would expect).

You understand that some of the Defense companies here have annual IRD budgets larger than most European defense budgets for a decade.

Defense Dollars as well as DARPA and NRL money are at an entirely different scale here as opposed to the rest of the world.

Korea stepped away and build their own defence industry using what they have access to and using what works from their allies. They have done pretty well for the past few years.

Korea JV’d and has considerable licensing agreements. They have also been willing to spend money at a national level to have ownership or rights to technology.

Is American Kit really better?

Yes

They usually end up buying or "hostile"collaborating with others to build their own kit. I would say the defence company alliances have provided the US with most if not all of their actual expertise from outside of the US for their better kit. The US has used and abused their "partners" for decades to better themselves. Often forcing the if you want to sell this item to us then we have to control the company. Remember We are the biggest buyer of this kit. So take our offer or leave it. In my opinion this has limited many to expand the bar, and or allow a cheaper process to be found.

You really don’t seem to understand the Defense Industry, or Industry in general. What you portray as hostile is generally just good business practices.

All one has to do is look at the lack of ability for us to build munitions and their components on a large scale, the costs are prohibitive and the specialized parts are no longer in production. Some how we cant produce those parts, and produce them in any quantities.

I mean it’s almost like the Canadian Government sold off its Defence Infrastructure…

Oh wait.

Yet we are seeing Ukraine and Poland with their gloves pulled off making things happen, with the help of all the team. While the allies remove some restrictions, Ukraine and Poland are working between the lines and getting things done.

Technical Assistance Agreements, Data Transfer Licenses etc are all a thing.
But no one does anything for free.

Canada has been a shitty defense acquisition partner for years.

Then look at the US and their tactic of we want this tech right now for ourselves. We don't want to pay for it.

Where Israel has specifically partnered up with Ukraine for anti Drone and missile defence among a couple of things. When the US tried to step in Israel did it anyways.

You are a prime example of how someone with a little information is dangerous.

 

[Gordon Dundas/]

It's one of the things that annoys me about the Gripen uberfanboys . It's that most of them seem utterly convinced that it's like buying a new car .
20 minutes of paperwork most of which is spent talking about sports or something .
Go out to the lot hop in and drive !
It hasn't quite gotten to the point where having the AC disassemble itself in mid flight is part of the mathematical probability of flight ....but it's starting to get close.
I'm sorry the but what part of the CF188 is aging out don't they get?
And they want to kick the can down the road...how many years???!??

 

[KevinB]

I do find it interesting that we have not actually received any F35s yet

Considering late FY26 is the slated delivery year for Canada’s first but why?

Canada committed late to the party.

It is amazing that folks don’t want to just give you thinks for free right?


Germany and the Swiss are the current build units.

. The US had stated a year or two ago that they had built a few in anticipation of sales so could provide immediate delivery if required.

The RCAF still has not gotten the required security infrastructure to base any in Canada. A quick search shows the delivery schedule for the current ordered aircraft.



Most customers seem to have opted for CONUS initial delivery and training. So the Luke AFB plan isn’t unique in that respect.

We will more then likely buy the 65 or so F35s unless DT makes a Presidential decree otherwsie. The Military side of things seems to plugging along as are the defence agreements. I just wish the US could provide the F35 as promised.

I wish stupid people would stop posting idiotic comments on the internet.

As for new agreements of other equipment purchases time will tell. I think somehow we will buy the same equipment but it might come through General Dynamics Europe with an agreement to build some or all here. The US still gets their cut, Europe gets their cut and Canada gets to create jobs here while re tooling and Rearming.

GD already has Canadian subsidiaries.

 

[Rainbow1910]

It was a field of two. The only possible outcomes were first and second. Coming in second in a two horse race is not an accomplishment.

And unlike the Super Hornet, the Gripen actually still passed muster and was not eliminated from the competition. It wasn't just coming in second place, it was holding enough of a standard to remain as a 'viable' alternative.

I think a valid question is; How much of the competition was genuine, and how much was the RCAF doing what all elements do, and rigging the criteria?

Its pretty easy to do, just toss in a few "critical" elements you know only one binder has... E.g. We must absolutely have a triple transducer barometer for flight safety! Meanwhile, most brands make a double transducer barometer, because that is the accepted standard in most of the world... So in the end, the one brand that makes a triple transducer barometer wins, and nobody else even bothers to waste time on us.

How much of the F-35 win is based on the MADL system, or similar capabilities, not even used by the F-22? The aircraft so special nobody else was allowed to buy it?

I could see the logic behind this being a "Canadian" specific issue, but that falls apart in my opinion when you look abroad. The Gripen E/F has not won a single competition where it has went up against the F-35 and it has also lost to other 4th generation platforms like the F-16, Eurofighter or Rafale in competitions where the F-35 wasn't even present. Are all of these nations similarly holding rigged competitions across multiple different year ranges, with different requirements and separate operational theatres? What is the actual value of the Gripen when it goes 1-3 in adoption by the Nordic nations (with the only winner being in its home country), in a political and geographic area where it should be dominant?

There comes a point where people have to sit down and consider "what if the F-35 is actually that good of an aircraft" instead of defaulting to "Bias/Lockheed Martin is behind this."

Personally, my only gripe is against how shitty the Gripen is and their used car salesman routine of promising anything and everything. I actually have come around to thinking that the F-35 order should be cut to 70 frames or less and our GCAP commitments accelerated. Along with CCAs. And all ITAR free thanks to our upcoming partnerships with Europe and Asia.

I can see the value in transitioning to GCAP eventually from an F-35A fleet however, I am much more hesitant to bet so much on GCAP when so much of it is up in the air. GCAP is already facing an uphill battle given the extreme timelines the Japanese have placed upon it entering operational service, those are likely to slip and Canada is far removed from the priority for delivery. What happens when the price-tag for these aircraft comes out and its in the multi-hundred million CAD? What happens when these aircraft have notable teething issues because next generation aerospace design is not a skill any of these companies have mastered? There is a lot of things around GCAP that are pie in the sky-esque that have not had to meet reality yet, we need to be realistic where Canada will fall on the priority list of GCAP operators and if GCAP will even deliver on capability/schedule.

For all of the F-35's ongoing issues, it has long since been an operational aircraft and is seeing nearly 200 aircraft built per year at this point. Cutting ourselves off at the knees now and in the intervening years for the idea of a future platform does not come off as wise planning to me.

If the US were to say their engines wont be allowed for Canada to use in the Gripen then Canada builds their own. If the electronics in the avionics are not allowed then Canada builds their own. Maybe CAE limits what the US can use that is of their propriety, intellectual property. Then maybe the European and Canadian Defence industry starts to limit US Access to their knowledge and skills. (will put the hurt on them more then many of you would expect).

This is entirely unrealistic, Canada may do depot maintenance and other upkeep on engines domestically but actually building our own is entirely different. Without major investment and technical assistance from a foreign nation who already has their own engine production capability, Canada is not going to be able to design or even build a modern, military jet engine able to replace a F414 within any timeline or fiscal environment one could call reasonable. Nations like China with immense industrial knowledge and ungodly deep pockets spent decades upon decades unable to fully replicate their own domestic engines and were helped to a substantial degree by the Russians. Modern military jet turbines have incredibly exact tolerances and metallurgic requirements that make copying, development and production exceedingly difficult.

There are only a handful of nations on Earth that can independently produce their own jet engines of this type, those being the United States, France, the United Kingdom, Russia and China. Other nations are trying, but they have yet to meaningfully succeed. A number of other nations can and do assembly engines on license however, that is an entirely different situation than building them independently. I'm not even going to open the legal can of worms that developing or building an unlicensed, illegal copy of an existing engine would expose Canada to.

 

[Gordon Dundas/]

I won't say that I don't care what Aircraft . we buy just so long as they are delivered soon.
As I understand it right now we should be flying F35s operationally in 2 to 3 years .
If we take options B so to speak we looking at least 5 to 10 more years.
I have no special knowledge this is all based on open source material . And watching the Canadian military for almost 40 odd years.(occasionally very odd years.)

 

[childs56]

You understand that some of the Defense companies here have annual IRD budgets larger than most European defense budgets for a decade.

Ya, they are also one of the most over inflated defense markets in the world. I can sell you a toilet for $300 or I sell you the same toilet for $30,000 plus The US buys the latter
If I had a population of 350 million compared to a Country of 40 million or less I would expect the budget to be much larger. Because they spend the second most per capita in the world on defense is very impressive, one has to ask why it is such a limited production of critical systems.

Defense Dollars as well as DARPA and NRL money are at an entirely different scale here as opposed to the rest of the world.

So the US has always planned to keep the fight over others territory at the expense of cost, of high tech large force tech. DT has now said everyone owes them for this.
It is funny how a change of thinking for one becomes a large change for all. I guess the US holds the key for world protection and so what they say goes. Until it doesn't.

Korea JV’d and has considerable licensing agreements. They have also been willing to spend money at a national level to have ownership or rights to technology.

They have gone outside of those agreements and provide kit elsewhere in the world. Against what the US wanted. But in the grand scheme of things the US still gets their share of the money. So it is still a win.

Yes

You really don’t seem to understand the Defense Industry, or Industry in general. What you portray as hostile is generally just good business practices.

In any other industry it would be deemed hostile take over in bad faith. Which eventually leads to failures across the board and investigations.
Typical American Business practice is "me bigger so me gets what me wants, no matter what".

I mean it’s almost like the Canadian Government sold off its Defence Infrastructure…

Oh wait.

They have not technically. Our industries have been going pretty strong overall.
For what was closed and or limited has been done by being bullied to do so. What has stayed has been due to knowing the value of what we have overall. KFC is a great example of this.

Technical Assistance Agreements, Data Transfer Licenses etc are all a thing.
But no one does anything for free.

The US has been very hostile in their partnerships.

Canada has been a shitty defense acquisition partner for years.

Have they really. Our procurement sucks but it eventually comes out in largeish purchases of good equipment. . Canada has bought the bare bones for sure, but we have stepped up when and where required on the ground.

You are a prime example of how someone with a little information is dangerous.

how so?

 

[childs56]

This is entirely unrealistic, Canada may do depot maintenance and other upkeep on engines domestically but actually building our own is entirely different. Without major investment and technical assistance from a foreign nation who already has their own engine production capability, Canada is not going to be able to design or even build a modern, military jet engine able to replace a F414 within any timeline or fiscal environment one could call reasonable. Nations like China with immense industrial knowledge and ungodly deep pockets spent decades upon decades unable to fully replicate their own domestic engines and were helped to a substantial degree by the Russians. Modern military jet turbines have incredibly exact tolerances and metallurgic requirements that make copying, development and production exceedingly difficult.

There are only a handful of nations on Earth that can independently produce their own jet engines of this type, those being the United States, France, the United Kingdom, Russia and China. Other nations are trying, but they have yet to meaningfully succeed. A number of other nations can and do assembly engines on license however, that is an entirely different situation than building them independently. I'm not even going to open the legal can of worms that developing or building an unlicensed, illegal copy of an existing engine would expose Canada to.

Canada already manufactures the components on these and other Turbine series, We have the skill, we have the tech we don't have the need at this time to go it alone.
Don't let that fool us to think we can't produce a domestic Gas Turbine.

 

[ytz]

I do find it interesting that we have not actually received any F35s yet.

There's nothing interesting about it. We don't have any crews who have completed conversion yet. When they do, the jet will be delivered to them. Should happen sometime this Fall.

 

[ytz]

Canada already manufactures the components on these and other Turbine series, We have the skill, we have the tech we don't have the need at this time to go it alone.
Don't let that fool us to think we can't produce a domestic Gas Turbine.

Producing a gas turbine and producing one that is effective or leading in combat are very different things. Look how long it took China to reverse engineer Russian turbines. And they still aren't anywhere as powerful or reliable as American engines. That's why the Chinese have 3 engine sixth gen fighters.

 

[MrWhyt]

Producing a gas turbine and producing one that is effective or leading in combat are very different things. Look how long it took China to reverse engineer Russian turbines. And they still aren't anywhere as powerful or reliable as American engines. That's why the Chinese have 3 engine sixth gen fighters.

and nevermind redesigning the grippen to take the new engine, and then recertifying the airframe with the new engine.

 

[dapaterson]

There's nothing interesting about it. We don't have any crews who have completed conversion yet. When they do, the jet will be delivered to them. Should happen sometime this Fall.

But once delivered, they will be at Luke AFB, not a Canadian base.

 

[ytz]

I can see the value in transitioning to GCAP eventually from an F-35A fleet however, I am much more hesitant to bet so much on GCAP when so much of it is up in the air. GCAP is already facing an uphill battle given the extreme timelines the Japanese have placed upon it entering operational service, those are likely to slip and Canada is far removed from the priority for delivery. What happens when the price-tag for these aircraft comes out and its in the multi-hundred million CAD? What happens when these aircraft have notable teething issues because next generation aerospace design is not a skill any of these companies have mastered? There is a lot of things around GCAP that are pie in the sky-esque that have not had to meet reality yet, we need to be realistic where Canada will fall on the priority list of GCAP operators and if GCAP will even deliver on capability/schedule.

For all of the F-35's ongoing issues, it has long since been an operational aircraft and is seeing nearly 200 aircraft built per year at this point. Cutting ourselves off at the knees now and in the intervening years for the idea of a future platform does not come off as wise planning to me.

I can read the winds at Carling. A dual fleet is coming. One way or another. So I'd rather have that second fleet be GCAP than Gripen.

 

[ytz]

But once delivered, they will be at Luke AFB, not a Canadian base.

Correct. They aren't moving to Canada till infrastructure is complete and certified. And on the current timeline, that's probably beyond 2030.

 

[KevinB]

Ya, they are also one of the most over inflated defense markets in the world. I can sell you a toilet for $300 or I sell you the same toilet for $30,000 plus The US buys the latter.

Years before budgets had line items for Black programs, a lot of Contractors help hide classified programs in plain sight

If I had a population of 350 million compared to a Country of 40 million or less I would expect the budget to be much larger. Because they spend the second most per capita in the world on defense is very impressive, one has to ask why it is such a limited production of critical systems.

One persons limited production is another’s outrageously lavish numbers.

So the US has always planned to keep the fight over others territory at the expense of cost, of high tech large force tech. DT has now said everyone owes them for this.

While I’m not a DJT fan, America kept forces a lot of places after WW2 to counter communism, as other nations pulled back or reduced their military back to pre war levels.

Then when the Wall came down, Europe and Canada etc slashed Defense spending even further.

Most nations enjoyed Pax Americana.
Or at least enjoyed the benefits while decrying America.

It is funny how a change of thinking for one becomes a large change for all. I guess the US holds the key for world protection and so what they say goes. Until it doesn't.

Still the most credible military in the world.

They have gone outside of those agreements and provide kit elsewhere in the world. Against what the US wanted. But in the grand scheme of things the US still gets their share of the money. So it is still a win.

Korean Industry doesn’t do anything contrary to US interests. That may eventually change but the Koreans have one of the most balance relationships with International Defense entities. They are fair, firm and make enough everyone benefits.

In any other industry it would be deemed hostile take over in bad faith. Which eventually leads to failures across the board and investigations.
Typical American Business practice is "me bigger so me gets what me wants, no matter what".

Canada has been an unserious country for years. Buying out a foreign entity or gaining control is simply good business.
Most of the companies that get gobbled up where eager to take money to expand, and sold their souls, then got angry when they realized they where no longer the owner/majority shareholder.

They have not technically. Our industries have been going pretty strong overall.
For what was closed and or limited has been done by being bullied to do so. What has stayed has been due to knowing the value of what we have overall. KFC is a great example of this.

The US has been very hostile in their partnerships.

Have they really. Our procurement sucks but it eventually comes out in largeish purchases of good equipment. . Canada has bought the bare bones for sure, but we have stepped up when and where required on the ground.

The problem is a lot of Canadians think you are right.
A Bde of equipment every 10 years (well more but..) isn’t large.

Having spent 17 years in the CAF, I am not disparaging members efforts or actions. The bone of contention is with the Canadian people as a whole who let the CAF rust out repeatedly.

how so?

Lots of moving parts to discussions.
Just like any other discussion everyone will tell their story, and somewhere in the world there is the truth.

I don’t pretend to know every specific aspect about Ukrainian/Israeli/American discussions on Defense Dome technologies— but I know enough to understand that there where many different COA’s and vectors proposed and requested by multiple parties both Governmental and Industry on all sides.
Including some national desires that fundamentally clashed with themselves.

 

[dapaterson]

Correct. They aren't moving to Canada till infrastructure is complete and certified. And on the current timeline, that's probably beyond 2030.

Both physical and electronic infrastructure.

 

[KevinB]

That's why the Chinese have 3 engine “sixth” gen fighters.

FIFY
Admittedly they are much further along than the Russian 6th Gen, which appears based on if a Tu-22 and SU-57 had a bastard love child just made even bigger and less stealthy.
I was wondering if that was what one hungover engineer did after they missed a deadline
- but ChatGPT made a much better design that removed a lot of flaws from the SU-57 exterior.

 

[ytz]

Both physical and electronic infrastructure.

100%. Unfortunately, the Gripen chuds will take this as evidence of why we shouldn't buy the F-35, instead of evidence that our infrastructure is decrepit. The F-35 has been an amazing forcing function for all of government to do all the infrastructure, security and IT stuff we should have done 15 years ago.

 

[dapaterson]

100%. Unfortunately, the Gripen chuds will take this as evidence of why we shouldn't buy the F-35, instead of evidence that our infrastructure is decrepit. The F-35 has been an amazing forcing function for all of government to do all the infrastructure, security and IT stuff we should have done 15 years ago.

The RCAF has been negligent in maintaining security.

The RCN and Army equally so, but this is a RCAF thread.

 

[ytz]

The RCAF has been negligent in maintaining security.

The RCN and Army equally so, but this is a RCAF thread.

100%. It was cute when I took some PS up to North Bay and there was a WASF exercise going on. Was entertaining that somebody thought it was serious.

 

[dapaterson]

100%. It was cute when I took some PS up to North Bay and there was a WASF exercise going on. Was entertaining that somebody thought it was serious.

I recall security exercises at 101 being cancelled the moment the DM was inconvenienced on arrival.