Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

[PrairieFella]

They actually did a pretty good job.

They usually do over there.

 

[FJAG]

The "victim of big bad RegF" culture is ruining the PRes. Your post completely misses the point of Defense of Canada.

Respectfully, I don't think he's missing the point about Defence of Canada at all. When you sit on the outside looking in, it's not hard to see where the army is applying its priorities by where it allocates its resources.

Defence of Canada is becoming, as it should, a major thing for the RCN and RCAF. But, it's not solely a pure RCN or RCAF task it will need some very specialized full-time land force resources none of which appear to be established in even an embryo state. What's more, the army has spent a year figuring out what the manoeuvre division should be but spent minimal time on Homeland (which is why there are no embryo establishments at this point)

The "big bad RegF culture" isn't ruining the PRes. That's been done continuously since the 1950s. What the "big bad army culture" is doing is giving the ARes a mission which the RegF would like to continue to ignore and doesn't want and is short changing 2 Div on resources. I, for one, am putting a lot of faith in some of the folks posted into 2 Div HQ to do the work that should have been done a year ago, if not four years ago.

I've got my fingers crossed. But I've been inside, or outside looking in since 1965, the years of the original "Snakes and Ladders Boys" and there's a feeling of déjà vu all over again here.

 

[PuckChaser]

The Army has leaders in place now to do real estimates on what defense of Canada is and needs. I'm sure there will be plenty of PRes input into that plan to transform how we do business domestically and how we defend our country. CAMO is an opportunity to make the PRes more than a farm team for the RegF, and opportunity that could have been seized decades ago by the actual reservists implicated in that plan.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Respectfully, I don't think he's missing the point about Defence of Canada at all. When you sit on the outside looking in, it's not hard to see where the army is applying its priorities by where it allocates its resources.

Defence of Canada is becoming, as it should, a major thing for the RCN and RCAF. But, it's not solely a pure RCN or RCAF task it will need some very specialized full-time land force resources none of which appear to be established in even an embryo state. What's more, the army has spent a year figuring out what the manoeuvre division should be but spent minimal time on Homeland (which is why there are no embryo establishments at this point)

The "big bad RegF culture" isn't ruining the PRes. That's been done continuously since the 1950s. What the "big bad army culture" is doing is giving the ARes a mission which the RegF would like to continue to ignore and doesn't want and is short changing 2 Div on resources. I, for one, am putting a lot of faith in some of the folks posted into 2 Div HQ to do the work that should have been done a year ago, if not four years ago.

I've got my fingers crossed. But I've been inside, or outside looking in since 1965, the years of the original "Snakes and Ladders Boys" and there's a feeling of déjà vu all over again here.

IOW...

The Defence of Canada is so important that it's been assigned to the 'least ready', most poorly equipped component of the CAF, most of whom also happen to be part timers.

Not a great look for a country banging the drum about arctic sovereignty, 'elbows up' vs. the USA etc... or that's how it seems at any rate.

 

[FJAG]

The Army has leaders in place now to do real estimates on what defense of Canada is and needs.

I agree. Now. My only thought on that is it should have been a year ago.

I'm sure there will be plenty of PRes input into that plan to transform how we do business domestically and how we defend our country.

I'm not concerned about the PRes input. Quite frankly planning is a full-time job that needs the A-team which to me means the senior RegF leadership trained and experienced in the process. As much as I'm an advocate of the PRes, I know what their systemic limitations are and strategic planning on this level isn't part of their tool-set.

CAMO is an opportunity to make the PRes more than a farm team for the RegF,

Here's my point. 2 Div needs a solid and large core of RegF to provide the things that only full-time fully trained soldiers can give. Concurrently, the PRes can provide the lower level mass that 1 Div needs to be sustained over the long haul. Both divs need a larger level of integration and resource allocation than they have. The only issue, in fairness, is that there are too few resources to go all around.

and opportunity that could have been seized decades ago by the actual reservists implicated in that plan.

That part is unrealistic. "The" plan isn't something worked out on the armouries floor. At best you teach battle drills there. How much defence of Canada work could they have done when they never had clear tasks, appropriate equipment nor funds to train with anyway? Has anyone in the army actually written the doctrine to show where the ARes fits in to homeland defence beyond the Arctic response companies? And when last I looked every division was commanded by a RegF brigadier.

The problems with the PRes are deeply engrained systemic ones that need some fundamental changes that can only be initiated at the CAF senior leadership level. They're all fixable if there was more of a will to address them rather than just try another organizational reshuffle. They're just not fixable if the problems are just relegated to some Class Bs scurrying around the halls in Ottawa and the mass of the Class As are left to their own devices. It needs not just the vision but a responsible and accountable full-time chain of command from top to bottom . . . and kit.

Okay. I'll get off my hobby horse now.

 

[PrairieFella]

We cant get the support to fix trucks within a three-year timeframe, its rich to think that the Reserves is anything other than exactly what Ottawa wants it to be.

 

[RangerRay]

I can see regiment formations superimposed on an army with a British regimental system causing confusion.

Are there any other armies with British regimental systems using regiment formations? I’m only aware of Americans and continental Europeans using regiment formations.

 

[Furniture]

We cant get the support to fix trucks within a three-year timeframe, its rich to think that the Reserves is anything other than exactly what Ottawa wants it to be.

We can't get support to buy a functional automated weather observation system(AWOS) to free-up nearly 1/3 of my trade to do actual value added work, because there hasn't been money or attention for anything that isn't a deployment since at least when I joined in Jan 2001.

AWOS's exist, around the world and even in Canada(since the 90's), but the CAF can't find the money or people to fix the problem. My trade is a 100% Reg F trade, so it's not about Reg F vs. Res F, it's about deploying forces vs. the rest of us.

That's the CAF/GoC choosing to not fail internationally, not the CAF hating the Res F/2 Div/Met Techs...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Here's my point. 2 Div needs a solid and large core of RegF to provide the things that only full-time fully trained soldiers can give. Concurrently, the PRes can provide the lower level mass that 1 Div needs to be sustained over the long haul.

Hell to the yeah.

My guess is that the Reserves seriously think, incorrectly, that they can go it alone as the '2nd best Army in Canada'.

Or, perhaps more accurately, ego driven senior reservists managed to pull one over on the CAF.

 

[FJAG]

We can't get support to buy a functional automated weather observation system(AWOS) to free-up nearly 1/3 of my trade to do actual value added work, because there hasn't been money or attention for anything that isn't a deployment since at least when I joined in Jan 2001.

AWOS's exist, around the world and even in Canada(since the 90's), but the CAF can't find the money or people to fix the problem. My trade is a 100% Reg F trade, so it's not about Reg F vs. Res F, it's about deploying forces vs. the rest of us.

That's the CAF/GoC choosing to not fail internationally, not the CAF hating the Res F/2 Div/Met Techs...

You are quite correct. It is not just a RegF or ResF issue. It is a priorities issue. It is where the leadership has to or chooses to spend the billions of dollars allocated to it. No one here is saying that the job is an easy one. But seeing where the money goes makes it clear where the priorities lie and the ResF, and through that homeland defence, is very low on that list. The proof will be in the pudding when the army starts to seriously proceed into planning homeland defence and starts allocating funds vis-a-vis as between 1 and 2 Div.

 

[WestIsle]

Hell to the yeah.

My guess is that the Reserves seriously think, incorrectly, that they can go it alone as the '2nd best Army in Canada'.

Or, perhaps more accurately, ego driven senior reservists managed to pull one over on the CAF.

Based on a lot of the various CMBGs input from the old FORCE 2025 I dont think that was the case. Any wins from this for the Reserves are likely a consolation prize in leu of any the equipment/capabilities to be felt by the rest of the force. Even the reserve training support staff being added are just more of an evolution of a situation that had developed since the late 2010s in that the various CDTCs and schools had shut off support or dramatically descaled courses for the reserve training relying on locally run courses often without proper infrastructure/support. The irony being the increasing number of people working at the CDTCs that are themselves from the reserves and the staffing at the CDTCs being a line item partially justified because of the need for reserve training.

Its a bit like in 2017 when the practice was ended of using funds/man days from the reserve allocation to fund reservists backfilling regular force positions. A bit of institutional having your cake and eating it to.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Based on a lot of the various CMBGs input from the old FORCE 2025 I dont think that was the case. Any wins from this for the Reserves are likely a consolation prize in leu of any the equipment/capabilities to be felt by the rest of the force. Even the reserve training support staff being added are just more of an evolution of a situation that had developed since the late 2010s in that the various CDTCs and schools had shut off support or dramatically descaled courses for the reserve training relying on locally run courses often without proper infrastructure/support. The irony being the increasing number of people working at the CDTCs that are themselves from the reserves and the staffing at the CDTCs being a line item partially justified because of the need for reserve training.

Its a bit like in 2017 when the practice was ended of using funds/man days from the reserve allocation to fund reservists backfilling regular force positions. A bit of institutional having your cake and eating it to.

At least it will be an opportunity to rationalize alot of 'independent thinking' prominenet throughout the old 'siloed' brigades and units.

 

[FJAG]

Good looking Org chart for 1 Div made by a Facebook contributor based on the Battle Order video.

 

[WestIsle]

Should 4 ESR not be moved to the new support formation?

 

[Kilted]

Good looking Org chart for 1 Div made by a Facebook contributor based on the Battle Order video.

View attachment 102221

Has there been any official announcement about the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards?

 

[PrairieFella]

Has there been any official announcement about the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards?

No. No confirmation Ive seen. Ive seen maybe 4 PLDG, 4 CAR (Canadian Armoured Regiment) and spitballing re-activating mothballed regular regiments like 8CH or FGH.

Most likely appears to be PLDG

 

[FJAG]

Has there been any official announcement about the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards?

I haven't seen or heard anything beyond the speculation here and on Battle Order. I can see 4 PLDG as it was the only armoured regiment in 1 Inf Div in WW2 as the div recce regiment. But that's just me rationalizing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Has there been any official announcement about the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards?

No, but they're probably working on their stand up parade routine

 

[Ostrozac]

My guess is that the Reserves seriously think, incorrectly, that they can go it alone as the '2nd best Army in Canada'.

Or, perhaps more accurately, ego driven senior reservists managed to pull one over on the CAF.

I get the sense that this is being imposed on the PRes, rather than being actively sought out. The inclusion in 2nd/Defence of Canada Division of things like the DOMOPS IRU role and the Canadian Rangers aren’t what the ‘Militia Myth’ crowd traditionally loves — but they are things that the Reg Force historically hates and view as a distraction to what it does think is important — high intensity war in Europe and lower intensity war everywhere else.

And if the PRes was really trying to build a ‘2nd best army’ then 2 Div would probably include the Reserve battle schools, which it won’t — they seem to be listed under the “Training Formation” — the successor to LFDTS/CADTC. Which suggests that individual and collective training for the 2 Div is probably destined to play second fiddle to the needs of the 1st/Manoeuvre Division.

 

[markppcli]

They actually did a pretty good job.

Its a one man operation.

I haven't seen or heard anything beyond the speculation here and on Battle Order. I can see 4 PLDG as it was the only armoured regiment in 1 Inf Div in WW2 as the div recce regiment. But that's just me rationalizing.

Its also the first on the supplemental order of battle.