09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[FDO]

I'm with Old Fart. If you want a full time military job with a better than average chance that you will have work go RegF. From what I understand (I may be misinformed) about Cl B contracts they are subject to termination with 30 days notice. That goes for the member who wants to quit.

 

[NL_engineer]

3.  The number of Reservists on full time (Class B and C) service is at an all time high and is also, quite frankly unsustainable.  There are many reasons for this which are not apparent to those on the Armoury floor.

aren't class C reservist's part of the Reg force pay system?

 

[old fart]

aren't class C reservist's part of the Reg force pay system?

Not sure what you are implying here.

A Reservists remains a reservist the only difference is the type of contract... with most Class C contracts that comes with a liability not inherent in Class A and Class B service...and not as easy to walk away from. 

Although certainly some reservists have Class C contracts and are managing to serve on this side of the pond. 

 

[Harris]

While I agree that there are a substantial number of Class B posns out there, I challenge the "system" to find a better way of filling many of them otherwise.  For example we were tasked with standing up a new HQ (3 Operational Support Group) in Bedford, and we were given 7 Reg force posns to help staff it.  6 of the 7 are no-fill from the Reg force.  So in a HQ that is meant to start off with approx 14 pers, currently we're at 4 pers.  How do you fix that directive without using Class B pers?

 

[PuckChaser]

Not sure what you are implying here.

A Reservists remains a reservist the only difference is the type of contract... with most Class C contracts that comes with a liability not inherent in Class A and Class B service...and not as easy to walk away from. 

Although certainly some reservists have Class C contracts and are managing to serve on this side of the pond.

Cl C money is from a different budget than Cl A/B.

I'm going to have to disagree with your wording... we're all on the same side of the pond Res and Reg, but that's not what this discussion is about.

Every section of the Army is making due with less and less people, and the Reg F units were using Cl B to fill those spots. I really don't see this freeze lasting for a long period of time. Just enough to make sure that the CL B positions that are out there (HQ staff, some Res unit daystaff positions, etc) are actually required for day to day operations, and aren't a way to allow your buddy to double dip.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Regardless...  Isn't there a moral obligation somewhere to employ people for 30 days. Even if their job gets axed.

30 days notice...  fine I'll take that,  but having it caught in a freeze with the possibilty of termination...  that is a different story.

No there's not. On civie street you'd be lucky to get two weeks notice with pay. Many private firms going through hard times have employees show up for work to find the gate padlocked by the bailiff and the company bankrupt. No benefits, no pension, and many have personal stuff like tools inside that can't be gotten at. No, your certainly not taking the hit like they do outside.

Now, I'll say it because no one else is. No one guaranteed you a job. It's why you have contracts. 6 month, a year, two years, whatever, but a contract. That implies that at the end of the contract, your services may no longer be required and there won't be an extention. People that cruise the B system for longer than the temporary job it was set up to be are damn lucky the B system is so corrupt. The same people get contracted time after time, without the bidding process happening. If it does happen it's often written and skewed to the point that only the incumbent is selectable. Cl B pers also seem to have the inside handle on any good positions coming up well before anyone looking to break that door even find out about it. The system is rife with favouritism and nepotism. It is meant to help a certain institution get over a small temporay hump in it's operations. However, those organization got lazy and fat.....and used to the idea of cheap labour. It also wasn't meant to provide careers for those that want all the benefits of the Reg force without the liability having to deploy or get posted.

If you want a career in the Service, do a Component Transfer and go Reg. As for having the rug yanked out from under you, there may be some fine print you missed. If not, redress it. Lots of companies sign contracts only to find the project cancelled. There is usually a penalty, but if the project company is bankrupt, nobody is getting anything.

Personally, I think it about time the Reg force had to put their own people into the positions they created. They've had the best of both worlds too long. Times are tough all over this country. No one is owed a living.

 

[old fart]

Cl C money is from a different budget than Cl A/B.

I'm going to have to disagree with your wording... we're all on the same side of the pond Res and Reg, but that's not what this discussion is about.

Every section of the Army is making due with less and less people, and the Reg F units were using Cl B to fill those spots. I really don't see this freeze lasting for a long period of time. Just enough to make sure that the CL B positions that are out there (HQ staff, some Res unit daystaff positions, etc) are actually required for day to day operations, and aren't a way to allow your buddy to double dip.

If your implying that a Reserve liability is the same as that of a Regular Force member "on this side of the pond"...the only place that is the case in clinical terms is within a conflict area.....not as easy to "just walk away" as Corps Express noted of course in relation to service; I am aware he was meaning service within Canada.

I find it hard to believe that we are expanding the Reserves given apparent budgetary constraints.  My solution to all this is the opposite.

And again, the Reg Force door remains open.

 

[X-mo-1979]

No there's not. On civie street you'd be lucky to get two weeks notice with pay. Many private firms going through hard times have employees show up for work to find the gate padlocked by the bailiff and the company bankrupt. No benefits, no pension, and many have personal stuff like tools inside that can't be gotten at. No, your certainly not taking the hit like they do outside.

Now, I'll say it because no one else is. No one guaranteed you a job. It's why you have contracts. 6 month, a year, two years, whatever, but a contract. That implies that at the end of the contract, your services may no longer be required and there won't be an extention. People that cruise the B system for longer than the temporary job it was set up to be are damn lucky the B system is so corrupt. The same people get contracted time after time, without the bidding process happening. If it does happen it's often written and skewed to the point that only the incumbent is selectable. Cl B pers also seem to have the inside handle on any good positions coming up well before anyone looking to break that door even find out about it. The system is rife with favouritism and nepotism. It is meant to help a certain institution get over a small temporay hump in it's operations. However, those organization got lazy and fat.....and used to the idea of cheap labour. It also wasn't meant to provide careers for those that want all the benefits of the Reg force without the liability having to deploy or get posted.

If you want a career in the Service, do a Component Transfer and go Reg. As for having the rug yanked out from under you, there may be some fine print you missed. If not, redress it. Lots of companies sign contracts only to find the project cancelled. There is usually a penalty, but if the project company is bankrupt, nobody is getting anything.

Personally, I think it about time the Reg force had to put their own people into the positions they created. They've had the best of both worlds too long. Times are tough all over this country. No one is owed a living.

Good insight.

corp_express, I'm on contract till 2020.Is the regular force be something you would do for full time work?

 

[old fart]

Recceguy...agree with your closing comments to a degree. 

What I would advocate given half a chance is zero Regular Force in a Reserve unit. 

A reserve unit would stand or fall on its own merits as would the leadership within.

It would certainly help in any subsequent Reserve unit rationalization.   

 

[Dog]

Enough of the Reserve versus Reg argument... it's gotten so old.

My question is this: for those Reservists on Class B contract for workup for TF1-10, what does that mean to them?

 

[Roy Harding]

No there's not. On civie street you'd be lucky to get two weeks notice with pay. Many private firms going through hard times have employees show up for work to find the gate padlocked by the bailiff and the company bankrupt. No benefits, no pension, and many have personal stuff like tools inside that can't be gotten at. No, your certainly not taking the hit like they do outside.

...

Thank you for saying that.  And I'll add - because I'm still feeling the sting - when a company goes bankrupt, their sub-contractors don't get paid either.  AND, they don't get the money back that they invested in tooling and/or employees to meet the contract they signed.

How would you like to lose your job, and be left OWING money because of the job?  This is the part of capitalism that the socialists forget (the bloody RISK involved in actually creating wealth for the nation).  Anyway - that's my "civvy" rant for the day. 

I feel for the guys whose contracts aren't being renewed/honoured - and I'm as outraged as anybody over the (as reported so far) lack of warning involved.

As I said earlier - it's reminiscent of earlier decades.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Doesn't seem to be effecting the schools (at least at CFSME) there are a number of people signing 2-3 year Class B's here.

 

[Robbie]

This hole class "B" freeze is a little scary. Yes I am one of them and rely on this work and I personal would like and think I deserve 2-3 weeks notice. Why I don't I go Reg? Well Wainwright doesn't appeal to me but Guelph, Ontario does. Can't get that from the Reg force. Yes every 3yrs my job goes up and I sweat alittle and people do apply but I get lucky and am awarded the contract again. (I'm good at what I do I guess). I know for a fact that my unit and many others would stop training in a matter of weeks if we weren't there. I can't see how my unit could get ready for an weekend EX, Thursday night trg, vehicles/weapons into maint, admin runs to the ASU. A OPs WO, CClk and a MBdr RSS just can't do it (3X reg force pers at my unit).

But on this hole Class B freeze.  We had an O groupe last week explaining all of this and the e-mail up on the power point forward all the way from LFCA explaining it.  All the money claw backs in LFCA witch includes 31 CBG witch I am apart of and that is affecting the Class B contracts, canceled EXs and courses is because the Army was directed from the Government of Canada that it will fund the Afghanistan mission untill the pull out date in 2011. Now the the powers that be where slow on telling the LFC what there cuts backs where. They finally told the LFCs about 2/3 weeks ago and money had to be freed up by Sept. That is why there is a freeze on EVERYTHING.

Rob

 

[Haggis]

Let's not all flinch here (as happened within LFCHQ).  Despite how it's being brought across, it's not a freeze in the truest sense.  The Army is taking a hard, but fast look at where and how Class B dollars are being spent within the Army.  CLS has no sway over how CEFCOM or ADM (IM) spends Class B dollars while employing Army personnel.

It's understood and accepted that many of the unit level Class B's fill essential functions; that, as Harris said, many HQs cannot survive witho the Class B's (who also bring a degree of stability and corporate memrory to the positions/organizations that Reg F cannot duplicate due to the posting cycle).

In the end, the majority of the positions will likely be renewed (but not all, I am certain) wih the SOUs dated to avoid breaks in service and the associated effects on benefits.

A few more points I'd like to add:

1.  Young Reserve soldiers should be strongly cautioned about using Class B as a career.  As Recceguy said, if you like it that much, then CT.

2.  Older (and I mean that in terms of age and rank) Reservists are, for a variety of reasons, not eligible for or intersted in a CT.  (how can, for example, a 40 year old Res F Maj with a family and a well established working spouse CT?  How many M/CWO positions are availabe for a Class B CWO to CT into?)

3.  Given our current Op tempo and manning, Class B's are an absolute neccessity at this time.  Yes, it's being abused.  No, it won't last forever.  After 2011, when the Field Force comes back from Afghanistan (it may not actually happen, but this is the "party line") many of these Reg F "backfill (manning shortfall)" Class B's will probably be filled, once again and properly, by Reg F members.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Recceguy...agree with your closing comments to a degree. 

What I would advocate given half a chance is zero Regular Force in a Reserve unit. 

A reserve unit would stand or fall on its own merits as would the leadership within.

It would certainly help in any subsequent Reserve unit rationalization. 

I can't speak for all, but many units are going that way already. We've got a couple kicking around that we're employing, but they're not posted here. Just awaiting training.

Enough of the Reserve versus Reg argument... it's gotten so old.

My question is this: for those Reservists on Class B contract for workup for TF1-10, what does that mean to them?

There is no Reg vs Res argument going on. We're not even, really, comparing the two.

As to your second question, I'm not sure. If they want to keep them I suppose they'll flip them to Cl C, but that's just a guess.

 

[Redeye]

On workup training they would already be on Class C contracts would they not?

Enough of the Reserve versus Reg argument... it's gotten so old.

My question is this: for those Reservists on Class B contract for workup for TF1-10, what does that mean to them?

 

[GAP]

This hole whole class "B" freeze is a little scary. Yes I am one of them and rely on this work and I personal would like and think I deserve 2-3 weeks notice. Why I don't I go Reg? Well Wainwright doesn't appeal to me but Guelph, Ontario does. Can't get that from the Reg force. Yes every 3yrs my job goes up and I sweat alittle and people do apply but I get lucky and am awarded the contract again. (I'm good at what I do I guess). I know for a fact that my unit and many others would stop training in a matter of weeks if we weren't there. I can't see how my unit could get ready for an weekend EX, Thursday night trg, vehicles/weapons into maint, admin runs to the ASU. A OPs WO, CClk and a MBdr RSS just can't do it (3X reg force pers at my unit).

But on this hole whole Class B freeze.  We had an O groupe last week explaining all of this and the e-mail up on the power point forward all the way from LFCA explaining it.  All the money claw backs in LFCA witch which includes 31 CBG witch which I am apart of and that is affecting the Class B contracts, canceled EXs and courses is because the Army was directed from the Government of Canada that it will fund the Afghanistan mission untill the pull out date in 2011. Now the the powers that be where were slow on telling the LFC what there their cuts backs where were . They finally told the LFCs about 2/3 weeks ago and money had to be freed up by Sept. That is why there is a freeze on EVERYTHING.

Rob

There....fixed that for you

You had good points, but the spelling errors were hurting your argument

 

[Nfld Sapper]

On workup training they would already be on Class C contracts would they not?

I think most are on Class B during the inital work up and then are put on Class C prior to deploying.

 

[Robbie]

There....fixed that for you

You had good points, but the spelling errors were hurting your argument

Ahhh crap... and thank you.

Rob

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ahhh crap... and thank you.

Rob

Jeez, hope you're not a clerk!! ;D j/k