2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[QV]

Probably has to do with these:

Canadian government invests $8.5 million in insect production

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada will help support the construction of Aspire’s insect production facility to spur the development of sustainable human and pet foods.

www.petfoodprocessing.net

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-ontario-cricket-factory-1.6562083

So is it still a conspiracy? I'm going to wait for Navy_Pete to opine on the "level of stupidity" he feels about some people who are not in favor of the government investment to grow insects for consumption.

I think the biggest issue with "the divide" in our political discourse is that both sides are only getting half the story.

 

[Remius]

As Centre Ice group drops 'Conservative' from name, where are moderate Tories to go?

An advocacy group started by centrist Conservatives to provide more of a voice to the political middle has dropped the party's name to expand its base.

www.ctvnews.ca

This is a group I can get behind and hope gains more traction.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@QV pretty easily using math; annual meat consumption in Canada is somewhere around 3 million metric tonnes. This plant's max output is 9000 metric tonnes. At 0.03% of the overall annual consumption it would be, at best, a novelty food for a very small minority of people.

In reality, the focus is for pet food, either as live crickets or as a protein additive, so if they did sell some for human consumption, it would be an even smaller fraction of a fraction of a percent.

I'm sure if they can sell some for people to eat for a premium, they'll be happy to, but that's not a sound business model. It's a good line to sell to the GoC to get funding though to get points for being 'innovative and green', but if they ever had any intention of going through that they already abandoned it as not worth the hassle. Creating some new agri-manufacturing jobs and cutting down on supply chain distance is never a bad thing though, and there are already oxygen thieves sitting as MPs that have cost far more than $8.5M.

People have been eating bugs for millennia, and things like toasted crickets are widely available as a novelty snack all over the place, with various bug cooking festivals (aka Entomophagy) have been in around since at least the 80s. And outside North America, not uncommon, but Canadians are soft AF so it's not exactly a growth market, especially when you can just eat beans etc if you want to cut down on protein from meat. I've tried bugs before, and actually were pretty tasty if you can get past the ick factor, but still would rather just have some chick peas or something.

With the horribly overprocessed things people do eat (like hotdogs) crickets are probably a lot healthier anyway though, but thinking that a single small plant is going to replace the entire beef industry which is valued at around $22 billion per year is pretty clown shoes. Especially when the meat replacements like the lab grown meat have a much higher price point and potential to make cash if they can scale it up.

So yes, the GoC providing money for someone to start a plant is true, but believing that means they want all Canadians to switch to crickets does require a certain suspension of disbelief normally reserved for cartoons if you look at it in context of the output vs actual annual consumption.

But the best stories start with a grain of truth I guess, if you want to sell someone a bunch of BS. But sure, this is all a Machivellian plot to do blah blah blah, from the same crew you are also saying has no idea what is going on and is massively incompetent. I mean, they are either evil geniuses with a cunning plan or useless oxygen thieves; you can't claim they are both concurrently.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The thing about moving the Overton Window for a subject is that you have to start somewhere.

 

[Kirkhill]

@QV pretty easily using math; annual meat consumption in Canada is somewhere around 3 million metric tonnes. This plant's max output is 9000 metric tonnes. At 0.03% of the overall annual consumption it would be, at best, a novelty food for a very small minority of people.

In reality, the focus is for pet food, either as live crickets or as a protein additive, so if they did sell some for human consumption, it would be an even smaller fraction of a fraction of a percent.

I'm sure if they can sell some for people to eat for a premium, they'll be happy to, but that's not a sound business model. It's a good line to sell to the GoC to get funding though to get points for being 'innovative and green', but if they ever had any intention of going through that they already abandoned it as not worth the hassle. Creating some new agri-manufacturing jobs and cutting down on supply chain distance is never a bad thing though, and there are already oxygen thieves sitting as MPs that have cost far more than $8.5M.

People have been eating bugs for millennia, and things like toasted crickets are widely available as a novelty snack all over the place, with various bug cooking festivals (aka Entomophagy) have been in around since at least the 80s. And outside North America, not uncommon, but Canadians are soft AF so it's not exactly a growth market, especially when you can just eat beans etc if you want to cut down on protein from meat. I've tried bugs before, and actually were pretty tasty if you can get past the ick factor, but still would rather just have some chick peas or something.

With the horribly overprocessed things people do eat (like hotdogs) crickets are probably a lot healthier anyway though, but thinking that a single small plant is going to replace the entire beef industry which is valued at around $22 billion per year is pretty clown shoes. Especially when the meat replacements like the lab grown meat have a much higher price point and potential to make cash if they can scale it up.

So yes, the GoC providing money for someone to start a plant is true, but believing that means they want all Canadians to switch to crickets does require a certain suspension of disbelief normally reserved for cartoons if you look at it in context of the output vs actual annual consumption.

But the best stories start with a grain of truth I guess, if you want to sell someone a bunch of BS. But sure, this is all a Machivellian plot to do blah blah blah, from the same crew you are also saying has no idea what is going on and is massively incompetent. I mean, they are either evil geniuses with a cunning plan or useless oxygen thieves; you can't claim they are both concurrently.

One fishmeal plant in Dutch Harbor swallows 1000 metric tonnes of fish per day. There were 4 plants of that size in the vicinity.

Alberta slaughters 50,000 head of beef a week at about half a tonne each. Call it 25,000 tonnes of beef per week or about 5,000 tonnes a day.

9000 tonnes of crickets = a couple of days run of fish in Dutch or cattle in Alberta (2 main plants).

There has been some talk of alternate proteins to feed fish and cattle and raising insects to that end might not be a bad thing. A bit grubby mind.

As to the overprocessed foods I can categorically state that the most overprocessed foods on the market are the meat and dairy substitutes made from pea proteins etc. They are triumphs of the Food Scientists art. I am personally acquaint with people who, like me, are retiring, and who wrote graduate theses on the imminence of the pea protein revolution and the replacement of the meat industry. The Foodie version of the Fusion reactor.

The problem is that for every westerner that discovers the wonders of tofu there seems to be ten Chinese willing to chow down on a nice red steak or well grilled pork chop.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Yeah, don't underestimate foreign markets. Apparently they're at least partly responsible for why my favourite brands are sometimes hard to find at liquor stores.

 

[Navy_Pete]

@Kirkhill agree, it's really a pretty insignificant in the overall picture, particularly when the meat industry is subsidized with billions each year, but I'd be surprised if their actual output from this plant had more than a few hundred pounds going towards people wanting to try it, with the rest going for feeding fish, reptiles and other pet foods. If the government really wanted to get rid of beef, they would simply stop subsidizing it and consumption would fall off when most people can't afford it.

The Canadian diet is completely unsustainable for the global population and we're actually the outliers, so who knows where things are going. In living memory lobster went from a nuisance catch that only the dirt poor would eat to an expensive luxury food, so maybe they just need to add garlic butter. I still won't eat a bottom dwelling sea bug that flourishes down current from sewage outflow pipes, but lots of people do.

There have been people trying to get eating insects to catch on in Canada for decades, and still a really niche thing that people will try to say they tried it (which is all I did). They were pretty tasty to be honest, and it's totally normal in some countries, but it's not like anyone is being forced.

Maybe one day things like cricket flour will be mainstream (instead of a niche product), but it's pretty easy to grab a bag of beans or chick peas and whip up some tasty and balanced vegetarian meals if cost is an issue, and is a lot better for you than a bowl of instant ramen. People have all kinds of fad diets, and if someone decides they want to add in a whack of bug protein, then great for them. Vegetarianism has been around for millennia and that still hasn't made a dent in Canadian eating habits either.

All that to say, this going from a random PA announcement to plug 'investing in a community' and 'creating jobs' turning into some kind of insidious plan is pretty crazy. Those announcements are pretty empty and meaningless, and the only difference between governments on doing them is the colour theme of the letterhead. You are pretty lucky if the actual content of it is half right, and someone doesn't inject some random words so it sounds better (and becomes factually incorrect).

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Pete, I come from a long line of cattle farmers/beef producers. Could you explain how the meat industry is ”subsidized with billions each year”, because we certainly never saw any of that money….

 

[Remius]

Pete, I come from a long line of cattle farmers/beef producers. Could you explain how the meat industry is ”subsidized with billions each year”, because we certainly never saw any of that money….

Some sources peg it at 2 Billion a year. That would include dairy, poultry, cattle etc etc.

Apparently it’s all on the agriculture Canada website.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Some sources peg it at 2 Billion a year. That would include dairy, poultry, cattle etc etc.

Apparently it’s all on the agriculture Canada website.

So, by that standard, virtually every industry in Canada is subsidized…

 

[FSTO]

Pete, I come from a long line of cattle farmers/beef producers. Could you explain how the meat industry is ”subsidized with billions each year”, because we certainly never saw any of that money….

My family as well.
I'm trying to think about the big cheques from the government that my brother cashes every year from his herd of cattle?
Nope, not one.

Does the various levels of government donate to livestock associations? More than likely.
Do municipalities give tax breaks to processors to set up their plants? Sure, but so does Amazon, MEC, Auto industry, wind farms and every other bloody thing.

Also that price of meat at the store? Well the rancher or feedlot operator ain't getting that sort of markup, not by a damn site. Cargill and the Weston Families are the ones you go after.

My brother will sell you a side of beef, cut and wrapped for $5.00 per lb. (he's likely just breaking even after he pays the butcher).

Now if you want to talk subsidies, go after dairy.

 

[Remius]

So, by that standard, virtually every industry in Canada is subsidized

Agriculture Canada has the numbers. Just pointing where you can find the numbers. It also has the various programs one can apply for and how to qualify for them.

I’m not making any arguments about whatever the argument is.

 

[FSTO]

Apparently it’s all on the agriculture Canada website.

Link?

 

[Good2Golf]

Now if you want to talk subsidies, go after dairy.

Hey, let’s keep the subsidies discussion to just billions, not trillions…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Hey, let’s keep the discussion to just billions, not trillions…

Good point about the Dairy industry being subsidized, which also indirectly subsidizes the beef industry. Each milk cow has to have a calf per year. Statistically, 50% of them will be males, which are of no use in a dairy, so they get sold to eventually be butchered…

 

[IKnowNothing]

Good point about the Dairy industry being subsidized, which also indirectly subsidizes the beef industry. Each milk cow has to have a calf per year. Statistically, 50% of them will be males, which are of no use in a dairy, so they get sold to eventually be butchered…

There's also upstream subsidies that keep the cost of inputs down, tax breaks on fuel, parts etc- varies by region.

It's definitely a touchy subject, but coming from a (crown deeded) 6th gen family farm, there's definitely a discussion to be had on the present and future of agriculture, Canadian food consumption habits, and the economic accuracy and viability of both. I'm only 30, and in my active memory there has been a massive shift. The family farm is largely dead, the industry is rife with externalized cost and almost entirely under corporate influence.

I'm no bleeding heart environmentalist, but there's something to be said for us eating less meat at a higher price, raised in a better way with more money going direct to smaller farms.

 

[Remius]

Link?

To agriculture Canada?

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada - agriculture.canada.ca

agriculture.canada.ca

Also: Grants, Subsidies and Contributions - Agriculture

But even easier is to just google it. Plenty of sources pointing to about the same number. 2 Billion or so.

My guess is that the bulk of it goes to large farming corporations but I don’t really know enough about it.

 

[Brad Sallows]

more money going direct to smaller farms.

Why? Are they more efficient?

Everyone gets a little "richer" when we get more for less, not when we get less for more.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I'm no bleeding heart environmentalist, but there's something to be said for us eating less meat at a higher price, raised in a better way with more money going direct to smaller farms.

I was buying a 1/4 of a bison from my cousin until recently. The herd broke through a fence and ate water hemlock, so he lost a chunk of his herd.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Why? Are they more efficient?

Everyone gets a little "richer" when we get more for less, not when we get less for more.

Cut out corporate middle men.

Gotta ask, why do you consistently fail to quote people properly?