2023 CAF Recruiting Ad

[Quirky]

Interesting, since the #1 thing people say on social media (CAF Reddit, here, etc) is to have higher pay, since they can't afford to live.

Hell, when some higher-ups suggested that pay wasn't the issue retaining folks, they were (and still are) loudly lambasted on that remark. Take a read at any number of CAF Reddit comments and "I'll stay in if they pay me more" is a general theme.

But you're saying that the people you know left the CAF for a lower paying job (that people are struggling to get by already) and they're happier. That would seem to go against the narrative above then.

I think it's highly dependent on trade and posting location, or just plain ignorance. If I'm going to compare my trade to the civilian equivalent, we have it easy in the CAF. Unlimited sick days, paid sports days/tournaments, 25+ days of leave (to to mention all the shorts and specials), pension, etc. I would need to make significantly more money at WestJet, say $70-80/h, for me to even consider dropping everything in the CAF. Money isn't the driving factor for me and my family. Not saying I wouldn't welcome a pay raise lol.

From my point of view, I think people don't know what they want and think pay raises will solve whatever individual issues they have. CAF Reddit is largely clueless to the real world around them and have no idea how hard it is out there. The loud ones would rather stick around and complain how shitty their CAF experience is instead of changing their individual situation. The quiet ones don't sit around and wait and have left for greener different pastures.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Interesting, since the #1 thing people say on social media (CAF Reddit, here, etc) is to have higher pay, since they can't afford to live.

Hell, when some higher-ups suggested that pay wasn't the issue retaining folks, they were (and still are) loudly lambasted on that remark. Take a read at any number of CAF Reddit comments and "I'll stay in if they pay me more" is a general theme.

But you're saying that the people you know left the CAF for a lower paying job (that people are struggling to get by already) and they're happier. That would seem to go against the narrative above then.

I wouldn't say that paying people more is the issue. I would say that there has been a pretty solid break in the social contract the CAF has with its members that is causing the issue.

We expect people to drop everything in their life, pick up and move across the country, and continue on as if nothing happened. We do that while whittling away supports and services, having a dysfunctional BGRS system behind it, while also also scaling down the amount of affordable housing options at that new location.

So what happens? We download the costs of those support onto the member. Paying higher rent in town (or CFHA's "market rate"), having to find childcare off base, social clubs and programs outside the base, having a spouse having to drastically downscale their earning power (Oh you're a CPA? That's cool. Anyways, welcome to CANEX, this is how you use the PoS system...), all while having a revolving door of exercises, deployments, losing PT to fix the VOR rate, etc. Etc. Etc.

Do we need to pay folks more? Possibly. The bigger issue is the value for money that service in the CAF provides. If you're constantly feeling like it's costing you money to be in uniform, people are going to want to be paid more.

 

[dimsum]

Do we need to pay folks more? Possibly. The bigger issue is the value for money that service in the CAF provides. If you're constantly feeling like it's costing you money to be in uniform, people are going to want to be paid more.

I totally agree.

But that goes back to my point that the pay, in and of itself, is not the #1 thing. The thing is the support, the culture, the "whatever" that we lost and thus is now costing the member money.

But, again, if I stood up and said that pay isn't the #1 thing, I'd be cancelled into the next 10 lifetimes.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I've watched the video a few times, I find it's odd. Maybe this is what AI algorithms think will resonate best with today's youth.
I struggled to see the connection to the CAF. "You can help people in the CAF" is sort of a conclusion you can draw from the video?

I strongly agree we need to sell non-combat arms jobs to people too. And we have some pretty cool ones. I don't see that connection in the video though. The video would make a better Team Rubicon recruitment video.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don’t know…Aussie-style rappelling with your mountain bike to do….something could be pretty adrenaline-filled? (Especially if a bike pedal gets caught in your figure-of-8)

Weirdly enough have actually done this in the CAF while on loan to an army cadet camp up in the Yukon. It was actually pretty awesome.

 

[Furniture]

I totally agree.

But that goes back to my point that the pay, in and of itself, is not the #1 thing. The thing is the support, the culture, the "whatever" that we lost and thus is now costing the member money.

But, again, if I stood up and said that pay isn't the #1 thing, I'd be cancelled into the next 10 lifetimes.

Pay isn't necessarily #1, but it's top 3 or 5 for sure. Pay has not kept up with inflation for about a decade, so the very high inflation of the last two years has just made a situation that wasn't ideal even less ideal.

People will put up with a lot of BS if the pay is high enough, the CAF's current balance of BS-pay clearly hasn't be working, or people wouldn't be complaining about it so much.

 

[KevinB]

Pay isn't necessarily #1, but it's top 3 or 5 for sure. Pay has not kept up with inflation for about a decade, so the very high inflation of the last two years has just made a situation that wasn't ideal even less ideal.

People will put up with a lot of BS if the pay is high enough, the CAF's current balance of BS-pay clearly hasn't be working, or people wouldn't be complaining about it so much.

Troops always bitch about things.
If the bitching stops, the coup is underway

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Troops always bitch about things.
If the bitching stops, the coup is underway

See that's the thing, troops are no longer just bitching. These are legitimate concerns that folks are expressing and it's being brushed off.

There isn't a coup threat anymore; troops are voting with their feet and the CAF writ large feels the pinch because of it.

 

[Furniture]

See that's the thing, troops are no longer just bitching. These are legitimate concerns that folks are expressing and it's being brushed off.

There isn't a coup threat anymore; troops are voting with their feet and the CAF writ large feels the pinch because of it.

I just checked, the average two bedroom apartment in Ottawa is $2050 a month... Add in a bus/train pass and hydro, and you're at half the take home pay of a PO 1 per month.

In other cities the average rent for a two bedroom apartment is:

Victoria $2599
Winnipeg $1479 (Who wants to live in Winnipeg?)
Edmonton $1309
Barrie $2050
Halifax $2200
Fredericton $1325

It makes sense that concerns about pay vary across the country, and based on when people were posted. Posted to Gagetown in 2009? You likely have a mortgage payment that is lower than the cost of renting a studio apartment in Ottawa right now.

 

[ballz]

I took a 50% pay cut when I left the CAF, no regrets. I could have went to a government job easily enough and had similar benefits and pay that was closer to the CAF, but working for the CAF taught me no matter how much they pay me, I'll probably hate it.

My earning potential is much higher now of course... we'll see how this year goes but not crazy to think in 12-18 months I'll be a manager with a starting salary around $105k plus bonuses, so after about 2 years I'd be back up to where I was before I left the CAF. After that? The sky is the limit. Partners at our firm make between $400k-$1+ million a year.

Anywho, my point being, I think a lot of people who see how much money some people make when they leave the CAF overlook a few things:
1. I spent 5 years in the CAF doing my CPA.
2. I had saved an assload of money to make the transition. It wasn't an overnight thing.
3. I took a big risk and a huge pay cut to start.

If I do make Partner, someone might say "hey look he left the CAF and now he makes $xxxk a year" as if I left the CAF and was a Partner the next day when it's anything but the case. I've networked with a few veterans now in finance, law, and accounting, etc. Yeah it all looks great when they're successful but most people aren't willing to get after it and so they live a life of quiet desperation until they get their pension. There's an awful lot of people who only stay in the CAF because of the pay and benefits and raising the pay and benefits won't make them happier.

The only thing I miss is all the leave... my friends on the outside say the same thing. But I have zero regrets, I was way happier last year making 50% of my old salary.

That said, I do think there are certain trades in the CAF, mostly in the NCM world, where the pay in the CAF is lacking compared to the civilian world.

Edit to add: It also always torques me when everyone assumes I left for higher pay because I had my designation... I left because I lost confidence in the leadership, and I think the whole fallacy of everyone leaving for higher pay is the leadership whispering sweet nothings in their own ears so they don't have to face reality that they suck.

 

[Furniture]

I think the whole fallacy of everyone leaving for higher pay is the leadership whispering sweet nothings in their own ears so they don't have to face reality that they suck.

I'm pretty sure nobody is saying people are leaving just because of pay... Pay is one of several factors that impact retention. The thing is, pay is likely the easiest thing to sort out, while working on solutions for the other issues.

Things like more PMQs, more health/mental health professionals, better pers management, etc., all will take many years to fix. The CAF can fight with TB about getting a new PLD system in place, to make expensive postings suck just a bit less. Maybe even fight with TB to push out a CoL increase before 2025...

 

[btrudy]

See that's the thing, troops are no longer just bitching. These are legitimate concerns that folks are expressing and it's being brushed off.

There isn't a coup threat anymore; troops are voting with their feet and the CAF writ large feels the pinch because of it.

Seriously, grumbling is one thing, but the proof is in the pudding. We're bleeding people, and the longer we go without taking drastic steps to fix the problem the worse it'll get.

And it absolutely needs to be retention focused; otherwise we're increasing the rate at which we take people in, spend a load of money to train them, and then watch them leave for an employer that's offering a better deal.

This is not an issue that can remotely be fixed by focusing on recruitment. Hell with the training backlogs we've got, that would just make things worse overall.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Seriously, grumbling is one thing, but the proof is in the pudding. We're bleeding people, and the longer we go without taking drastic steps to fix the problem the worse it'll get.

And it absolutely needs to be retention focused; otherwise we're increasing the rate at which we take people in, spend a load of money to train them, and then watch them leave for an employer that's offering a better deal.

This is not an issue that can remotely be fixed by focusing on recruitment. Hell with the training backlogs we've got, that would just make things worse overall.

I believe the GoC knows the CAF is short people and their concern is commensurate with the steps they are taking to solve the issue(s).

I've heard the current situation referred to as the "unofficial FRP", where no benefits are paid to selected members to reduce the overall force size; people just get out and voila, "savings".

 

[dimsum]

reduce the overall force size

Except that in FRP, the intent was to reduce the force size. The intent now is the opposite.

 

[dapaterson]

Recruiting shortfalls and trading backlogs are deliberate CAF choices to build unsustainable organizations while not resourcing the personnel production system to fill them.

Close two Reg F Inf Bns, permanently, and reduce the fleet by three frigates, and the CAF will still be unsupportably large, but problems will improve.

But had choices never get made. Perpetuation of the system that made Bloggins a GOFO is a must.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Recruiting shortfalls and trading backlogs are deliberate CAF choices to build unsustainable organizations while not resourcing the personnel production system to fill them.

Close two Reg F Inf Bns, permanently, and reduce the fleet by three frigates, and the CAF will still be unsupportably large, but problems will improve.

But had choices never get made. Perpetuation of the system that made Bloggins a GOFO is a must.

I really wish someone would put you in charge.

 

[btrudy]

An unwillingness to say no to unreasonable but not quite impossible requests made (At all levels really) is the root cause of the bulk of the issues facing the CAF.

 

[ArmyRick]

From my perspective. Remember been out since 2018.

Many people serve the CAF not just for money (although that is rather necessary to like live) but for the thrill, pride and yahoo factor. I didn't join the Reg F in the 90s for pay thats for sure, my best friends company was paying me alot more when I joined. I wanted to be a grunt. I wanted initially to be RCR, but due to being the last person asked, I was told Patricia I was (turns out to be a big win, because my friends from 1RCR told me it sucked to be there in the 90s).

Anywho, there are some that don't join for money. However in the 2000s as pay got a F of alot better, I was teaching up at Meaford. Many a reg force infantry recruit joined "for the pay and benefits" (never a good idea, go combat arms because you want to be hard as fuck and make fun but stupid choices like me), many of those troops regretted it. The ones who joined who wanted it, loved it.

Now, I get it. If your wanting to be a mechanic, a welder, an ammo tech, a boat fixing guy, a puts propeller on airplane the right way tech, you join for that.

Now Pay. Yeah, economy sucks right now. Inflation is high. Guess what? Civies have way fucking worse for the most part. As far as living conditions, I agree, a soldier/sailor/air force person should be able to live. Food, shelter, clothing, etc. I don't know what the answer is. Just throwing more money at the problem will only temporary solve the problem (maybe) but it leaves the door open for abusers. Money, sucks to say this, is a "whole of Canada" problem right now. And it really is political.

Off the top of my head, maybe the CAF should go back to invest in its own housing again?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Off the top of my head, maybe the CAF should go back to invest in its own housing again?

I think this is key; affordability is the issue, not necessarily base pay.

If you are going to move around frequently with a job, even as a very juniour person, being able to afford where you are posted is critical.

WIth @Furniture example above, it's particularly brutal for junior folks in the NCR where there is zero PLD, but we're at comparable rental rates to Toronto etc where you would be getting an extra 1k+ a month to offset the costs. My legacy mortgage and property tax from a decade ago on a bungalow would only cover a 1 bdr apartment, which is nuts.

There is a very small quantity of PMQs, at a location that basically requires a car to get to work, and outside of that people are living on the economy. Even the PMQs are relatively expensive, but still cheaper compared to the market.

 

[ArmyRick]

I think this is key; affordability is the issue, not necessarily base pay.

If you are going to move around frequently with a job, even as a very juniour person, being able to afford where you are posted is critical.

WIth @Furniture example above, it's particularly brutal for junior folks in the NCR where there is zero PLD, but we're at comparable rental rates to Toronto etc where you would be getting an extra 1k+ a month to offset the costs. My legacy mortgage and property tax from a decade ago on a bungalow would only cover a 1 bdr apartment, which is nuts.

There is a very small quantity of PMQs, at a location that basically requires a car to get to work, and outside of that people are living on the economy. Even the PMQs are relatively expensive, but still cheaper compared to the market.

Wow. We are right back to past problems and that is really stupid. The CAF is the master of making the same mistakes, over and over again.