50 cal accident: using a round as a hammer

[Rogo]

I think we can agree though, regardless of what damaged the hand or how likely this is to of happened.  It should never of been attempted and we are lucky the bullet didn't strike someone intelligent.  We just thinned out the military gene pool slightly.

 

[1feral1]

I think we can agree though, regardless of what damaged the hand or how likely this is to of happened.  It should never of been attempted and we are lucky the bullet didn't strike someone intelligent.  We just thinned out the military gene pool slightly.

This 'apparent' attitude touched a nerve with me.... he is one of us, and regardless of how this happened, he has been horribly disfigured.

Dude, I first I found your reply at Post No 9 (''Sad part is that he probably used his dominant hand.  Losing the other would not of been as bad haha)" rather tastless, then another dig in the above quote.

Great - you're actually poking fun at something as traumaitc as this. Although the incident is an act of stupidity, inexperience, complaciency, or lack of supervision or all of the 'above', if you knew this guy as one of his platoon mates, or are a relative, or even the medical staff that had to work on this soldier, I don't think you would be too happy with such an unappropiate comment.


Its not MASH on TV, or a movie, this is REAL!

To learn from something from this accident is a valued point for any of us, but to make fun and have a laugh at someone's loss of their hand, and that of a soldier of allied force, and one deployed in theatre is another.

Remember he was over there on operations as you were eating pizza, watching Two And 1/2 Men, all in the safety of your own home.

Summing up, Mr 19yr old ROTP (according to your profile) - pathetic!

OWDU

EDITed for spelling.

 

[SeanNewman]

I see both sides on this one.  Yes it's one thing to make fun of someone for being stupid, but at the same time you're right that this guy is now seriously disfigured (crippled even) because of this.

That's a pretty steep price to pay for a stupid mistake.

How many of us A Type personalities who post on this board have never done anything stupid?  Ever cut wood without glasses when you could have gone blind?  Ever went on your roof with no safety rope when you could have fallen and broken your neck?

 

[Occam]

I see both sides on this one.  Yes it's one thing to make fun of someone for being stupid, but at the same time you're right that this guy is now seriously disfigured (crippled even) because of this.

That's a pretty steep price to pay for a stupid mistake.

How many of us A Type personalities who post on this board have never done anything stupid?  Ever cut wood without glasses when you could have gone blind?  Ever went on your roof with no safety rope when you could have fallen and broken your neck?

I agree we probably all took liberties with our own safety as part of growing up (and some of us well into adulthood), but bashing something with an explosive object?

I blame the generations of kids who've grown up not knowing Looney Tunes...

 

[57Chevy]

The cartridge case is not designed to contain pressure when unsupported by the chamber of a firearm. It will expand to form fit the chamber of the weapon when fired. So if it doesn't have a chamber to support it the relatively soft metal may rupture in any direction. Then again the primer may blow out and release the pressure. So it is a crap shoot and you may get lucky or injured.

correction..........."will rupture in all directions".  No crap shoot there.

ie..........large caliber booby traps

 

[mariomike]

To learn from something from this accident is a valued point for any of us, but to make fun and have a laugh at someone's loss of their hand, and that of a soldier of allied force, and one deployed in theatre is another.

That is the way I feel. He was disfigured and disabled in the Line of Duty.

 

[Armymedic]

57 Chevy,
The wording put down by kkwd where it is said that the explosive force will rupture the casing in any direction is technically correct.

The explosive force will exert pressure in all directions equally on the diameter of the casing, but the casing will rupture at its weakest point, sending that force in any direction.

He was holding the round in an underhand grip as it detonated, in his right hand with the base and primer toward his midline. And it was the casing, not the round that cause this damage.

BTW, in my opinion. the most he could have possibly retained of his right hand would be his thumb, index finger, and if his plastic surgeon is really good, his middle finger as well.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think we can agree though, regardless of what damaged the hand or how likely this is to of happened.  It should never of been attempted and we are lucky the bullet didn't strike someone intelligent.  We just thinned out the military gene pool slightly.

For a POTENTIAL future Officer in the CF...you should follow the example of current Officers sometimes.

MAYBE once you actually put a pair of fuckin' combat boots on, get your hands dirty and actually do something in the military othan that apply for ROTP  : you'll understand why its ignorant to say stuff like this.

Ever been awake for a few days, running on little food, in really hot or cold temps, with hard timings to meet?  On GOOD days, people make mistakes.  Ever been nervous before?  Did you consider this was possibly a soldier with little experience?  Or who had a bad go the day before and was jittery about to go out on another op?

Think before you post.  If you make it thru the training, deploy somewhere one day with your platoon, and one of them does this exact same thing...you gonna look him/her in the face and say that??

You fuckin' pennies need to listen/learn more, talk/open your cake hole less most times.

 

[57Chevy]

57 Chevy,
The wording put down by kkwd where it is said that the explosive force will rupture the casing in any direction is technically correct.

"will rupture" as opposed to "may rupture"

 

[Retired AF Guy]

For a POTENTIAL future Officer in the CF...you should follow the example of current Officers sometimes.

MAYBE once you actually put a pair of ******' combat boots on, get your hands dirty and actually do something in the military othan that apply for ROTP  : you'll understand why its ignorant to say stuff like this.

Ever been awake for a few days, running on little food, in really hot or cold temps, with hard timings to meet?  On GOOD days, people make mistakes.  Ever been nervous before?  Did you consider this was possibly a soldier with little experience?  Or who had a bad go the day before and was jittery about to go out on another op?

Think before you post.  If you make it thru the training, deploy somewhere one day with your platoon, and one of them does this exact same thing...you gonna look him/her in the face and say that??

You ******' pennies need to listen/learn more, talk/open your cake hole less most times.

I agree with you and Wes on this one. It was a stupid accident and the person involved is going to be reminded of it every time he goes to shake hands or have a meal. A friend of mine who was #2 on a mortar crew and was slow pulling his hand back after dropping the round down the tube - lost his middle finger for his tardiness. Another guy I knew lost half his hand in the same way. Hell, I had done the same thing, fortunately it was a training round and didn't have enough velocity or I could have lost a couple fingers or worse. All it takes is moment of thoughtlessness and you end up paying for it for the rest of life.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Please stop splitting hairs over "shall/may/will", we're not debating QR&Os here.  This is an example of a ruptured cartridge, and pretty much is typical of how a casing splits, if your holding on to it, you're in for some pain.

 

[DexOlesa]

No i agree what Rogo said was ill conceived and in poor taste. However there is a difference between being a half step behind on getting your hand out of the way when firing a mortar (simple, bad timing, bad luck) and using a live round of ammunition as a hammer (stupidity, or unforgivable ignorance.)

 

[PanaEng]

+1 EITS.

Agree with SFB; the casing will/may (if the crimp is weak, it may just spit the bullet out) rupture near the neck/projectile crimp area (ussually, or the weakest spot as per Kats picture).
I've seen a .50 cook off (in a fire) and the bullet went about 10', the casing, split on one side from the crimp down to the middle, flew about 20' and the primer cap flew about 15' striking a piece of wood and leaving a 1/4" dent in it.

The explosive in the primer is enough to cause half of that damage. The propellant is a slower explosive and will build the pressure until the casing splits (even if the primer cap blows off - too much gas expanding)
But there really is no way to predict how the parts will react and what damage they can do (unless you are holding the darned thing) ; the round could be projected further or the casing or the cap.

anyway, just my anecdotal experience coupled with some formal knowledge ;-)
Hopefully the guy can keep his middle and index finger as well as his thumb. It looks like they already had done some cleaning/flushing of the wound.

CFSME (in Chilliwack) used to have tons of pictures of explosive accidents and bridging accidents to instill the fear/respect for the job into the tq3/officer cadets students. I haven't seen them around here in Gagetown.

cheers,
Frank

 

[Petard]

An interesting observation, I think those kind of posters definitely should be put up especially in the CTC Schools

The point I was trying to make in starting this post was not to draw attention to this act itself, but to whether or not anyone thinks these bulletins are usefull or not when it seems like they're only stating the obvious.
To give another for instance, the artillery school is about to put out something similar, some of which is to deal with what was pointed out in this old thread
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/87764.0.html
And yet I've heard from those trying to assemble the information that the feedback from users is they think derisively of the idea as being nothing more than egg-sucking 101, in other words why bother putting them out in the first place.

I suppose so long as there's been soldiers some of them have made incredibly stupid decisions, sometimes because of fatigue or stress of the moment, but in some cases, like maybe this one, perhaps out of ignorance.
It comes down to one of those motherhood Sergeant major type of things, where to steer ones' charges in the right direction a cautionary tale is given, usually proceeded with the words "if you keep doing that you'll end up like so n so that ..."
I think these kind of bulletins are very usefull, and its important to give an actual incident to make the message hit home; it gives those those trying to sort this kind of thing out a clear non urban myth example.

 

[Rogo]

I am sorry for my comments last evening, I had a good nights sleep and read what everyone wrote today and agree and will admit I did consider circumstances and being just ROTP I have the least right to post here compared to everyone else here.

I apologize guys.

I will try to keep my comments in better taste in this thread awell as another where I made a very unnecesary comment.

Have a good weekend everyone.

 

[57Chevy]

For an idea of the released pressure involved in this unfortunate accident, check out the video on the link. At the same time check out some of the other videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIi1Nw6GUZ4&feature=related

 

[1feral1]

No i agree what Rogo said was ill conceived and in poor taste. However there is a difference between being a half step behind on getting your hand out of the way when firing a mortar (simple, bad timing, bad luck) and using a live round of ammunition as a hammer (stupidity, or unforgivable ignorance.)

We don't know the factors leading to this tragic event, just what he did, and the outcome.  Either way, the soldier injured is one of us.

Using live ammo as tools is not new, It was not that long ago, the 5.56mm ball rd was openly used as a take-down tool (to push in the take down pins on the reciever, and to be ued to remove the firing pin retaining pin) for the M16A1 rifle, and it was right in the manual.

OWDU

 

[McD]

+1 EITS.

Agree with SFB; the casing will/may (if the crimp is weak, it may just spit the bullet out) rupture near the neck/projectile crimp area (ussually, or the weakest spot as per Kats picture).
I've seen a .50 cook off (in a fire) and the bullet went about 10', the casing, split on one side from the crimp down to the middle, flew about 20' and the primer cap flew about 15' striking a piece of wood and leaving a 1/4" dent in it.

The explosive in the primer is enough to cause half of that damage. The propellant is a slower explosive and will build the pressure until the casing splits (even if the primer cap blows off - too much gas expanding)
But there really is no way to predict how the parts will react and what damage they can do (unless you are holding the darned thing) ; the round could be projected further or the casing or the cap.

anyway, just my anecdotal experience coupled with some formal knowledge ;-)
Hopefully the guy can keep his middle and index finger as well as his thumb. It looks like they already had done some cleaning/flushing of the wound.

CFSME (in Chilliwack) used to have tons of pictures of explosive accidents and bridging accidents to instill the fear/respect for the job into the tq3/officer cadets students. I haven't seen them around here in Gagetown.

cheers,
Frank

This helped quite a bit. And posed many other questions (unrelated to this accident) which I am on the hunt for right now. Much appreciated.

 

[aesop081]

CFSME (in Chilliwack) used to have tons of pictures of explosive accidents and bridging accidents to instill the fear/respect for the job into the tq3/officer cadets students. I haven't seen them around here in Gagetown.

Frank, CFSME (in Gagetown) still had them when i left in 2004.

 

[chrisf]

Using live ammo as tools is not new, It was not that long ago, the 5.56mm ball rd was openly used as a take-down tool (to push in the take down pins on the reciever, and to be ued to remove the firing pin retaining pin) for the M16A1 rifle, and it was right in the manual.

Still plenty of PAMs instructing such kicking around.