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8 May 2025: "Lawyers for man executed by firing squad in South Carolina say bullets mostly missed his heart"

If that's the case, the most extreme test would be asking if someone who's OK with that would be OK being the mistaken executed person because, you know, what system is ever 100%? Same goes for making it easier to jail people - would one be willing to take one for the team in exchange for tighter rules being in place?
I would be willing to take one for the team if the other option would be being locked up for the rest of my life for a crime I didn’t commit. Both are the same net result at the end of the day.
 
Another way of looking at it,

If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call.

John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence
 
I would be willing to take one for the team if the other option would be being locked up for the rest of my life for a crime I didn’t commit. Both are the same net result at the end of the day.
That’s more forthright than a lot of others who like one bit of the idea, but not the other potential bit.
 
I would be willing to take one for the team if the other option would be being locked up for the rest of my life for a crime I didn’t commit. Both are the same net result at the end of the day.
That presupposes that it’s not possible to later be exonerated as new evidence emerges, new forensic techniques are developed, etc. In practice, while wrongful convictions aren’t common, they do happen and people are freed from prison with still plenty of life left to live.

Would you take one for the team and accept that it’s a fair system for you to die for a false conviction when the possibility exists than in another decade we’ll figure out a new way of extracting DNA from crime scene evidence that we aren’t yet able to isolate and examine now?
 
My objection to capital punishment is the political component. There are (or have been) far too many politicos who have included in their platform support for, or against, the death penalty, often because it appeals to their base. I recognize that there are people whose death contribute to safety and security of society, or a specific community or country (i.e., there are people who deserve to be killed). Often they are external to a particular jurisdiction, may not necessarily be a named individual and their demise isn't as a result of judicial verdict. Nation states (usually) have little or no remorse in authorizing the killing of individuals as a result of extraterritorial military/security operations.

I suppose when we know the individual that we want to kill and approach it from a formalized, systematic approach it becomes more personalized. At that point there is usually political involvement, either an elected individual (or political appointee) who has input in the decision to seek the death penalty or to authorize the killing. The actual killing itself is delegated to a minor functionary, almost a washing of the political hands. Since Canada has long ago suspended the death penalty, the most frequent examples we see of politicians demonstrating their "tough on crime" bona fides are from south of the border.

The particulars of the story in the OP brings to mind the debate surrounding the execution, almost fifty years ago, of Gary Gilmour. His method of execution was also by firing squad. One of the things I remember about it was the large number of persons who, without solicitation, volunteered to be part of the firing party.

In 1976, when Gary Mark Gilmore was sentenced to death by firing squad, TIME reported that dozens of men were calling the Utah state prison warden asking to be one of the shooters.
The warden today said that he would draw the names from the list of volunteers after he had screened those who sought participation for “unhealthy” reasons.”

“I can't judge everyone's motive,” he sat. “and I'm not sure what criteria I should use In evaluation. I'm just lookin for solid citizens.”

Just as there were (are) persons who volunteer (participate?) in the execution of a death penalty for "unhealthy reasons", I'm sure that there are politicians who support the death penalty for political purposes despite the possibility of error in the verdict and the irreversible finality of the sentence. Since the deliberate taking of life by the state should be a major event, my suggestion is that the execution (regardless of method) should be performed by the senior responsible politician in the jurisdiction (e.g., Governor of the state, POTUS). Additionally, if error is later discovered that the verdict was flawed, then the individual who authorized and carried out the execution should then be prosecuted for the killing.

Yes, I'm aware that such will never come about, but I dislike hypocritical politicians.
 
That presupposes that it’s not possible to later be exonerated as new evidence emerges, new forensic techniques are developed, etc. In practice, while wrongful convictions aren’t common, they do happen and people are freed from prison with still plenty of life left to live.

Would you take one for the team and accept that it’s a fair system for you to die for a false conviction when the possibility exists than in another decade we’ll figure out a new way of extracting DNA from crime scene evidence that we aren’t yet able to isolate and examine now?
Still doesn’t change my answer.

I was willing to kill or be killed in whatever questionable endeavour the government decided to or was forced to take part in no matter the morality of it. I am of the opinion that sometimes to make things better we must go forward with it despite the occasional mistake.

I consider avoiding finality in decisions to be futile and prolonging the inevitable usually at a large cost for the same or worse result. I can understand why people want to avoid it still doesn’t serve society the best.

Just a simple example being the cost. Unsure the exact number today but about a decade ago it was around 110k a year to keep people locked up. 110k a person a year to just keep someone who should be killed for their actions alive.

That could go to sending kids to school, or maybe funding health care, or maybe the military, but instead it is going to someone who has so egregiously harmed society that we would kill them except we lack the commitment to do so.
 
There are some clear cut cases where upon finding the defendant guilty, the sentence of death makes perfect sense, as a means of punishing someone for their actions.

As we are discussing a US case, I'll limit my thoughts to their system alone. My issue becomes that there is no clear set of rules in place that apply, that make the punishment equal to the crime. And therefore the deterrent affect is lost. In the States that allow capital punishment, the reasons that would lead to a prosecutor seeking, or not seeking, the death penalty are often widespread. Lets say there are ten cases where someone directly causes the death of two individuals. Lets say that in those cases, at least one of the two deaths is premediated. Whether a prosecutor decides to make it a capital case may depend on: did they cross state lines? was a LEO killed during the crime? is one of the individuals a minor? Was there a sexual aspect to the crimes? Was kidnapping involved? Is there enough evidence to guarantee a conviction? What is the age of the offender? Does the offender have a criminal record? What are the political aspirations of the prosecutor? and on and on . . . .

So in the end, capital punishment is an indiscriminate punishment based on the morality of the individuals involved.
 
Still doesn’t change my answer.

I was willing to kill or be killed in whatever questionable endeavour the government decided to or was forced to take part in no matter the morality of it. I am of the opinion that sometimes to make things better we must go forward with it despite the occasional mistake.

I consider avoiding finality in decisions to be futile and prolonging the inevitable usually at a large cost for the same or worse result. I can understand why people want to avoid it still doesn’t serve society the best.

Just a simple example being the cost. Unsure the exact number today but about a decade ago it was around 110k a year to keep people locked up. 110k a person a year to just keep someone who should be killed for their actions alive.

That could go to sending kids to school, or maybe funding health care, or maybe the military, but instead it is going to someone who has so egregiously harmed society that we would kill them except we lack the commitment to do so.
The cost is a red herring. The full course of appeals and the more expensive costs of incarceration in death row means that sentencing a prisoner to death and carrying it out is more expensive than simple life without parole.

You accept the risk to yourself; ok, I can respect that. What if the person wrongfully convicted and executed is your spouse? Or your adult child?

Wrongful executions have happened and more people still have been exonerated while already on death row. This isn’t theoretical.
 
The cost is a red herring. The full course of appeals and the more expensive costs of incarceration in death row means that sentencing a prisoner to death and carrying it out is more expensive than simple life without parole.
More expensive costs of incarceration? A bit curious on that and have to ask as i have zero knowledge. Why is it more expensive?
 
More expensive costs of incarceration? A bit curious on that and have to ask as i have zero knowledge. Why is it more expensive?
Any death penalty verdict in the USA actually takes about 15 years from court to the gallows. Sometimes longer - appeals are automatic in most cases and are often delayed - so lawyers need to be paid too.

There are some exceptions I think. I have heard Texas has or had an express lane for capital cases where three eye witnesses were present and witnessed the crime.
 
OP: Lawyers for man executed by firing squad in South Carolina say "bullets mostly missed his heart",

If they offered me a choice, I would go with the gas chamber. Less room for human error.

What if the person wrongfully convicted and executed is your spouse? Or your adult child?

What if the person wrongfully released murdered your spouse? Or your adult child?
 
More expensive costs of incarceration? A bit curious on that and have to ask as i have zero knowledge. Why is it more expensive?
Death rows are small; they don’t enjoy the economies of scale that come with running a larger jail. Ancillary to that the magnitude of appeals for a death row case greatly adds to total costs. All that to say, execution is. 5 really a cost saving, even were one inclined to take cost savings as an acceptable reason to risk killing someone wrongly.
What if the person wrongfully released murdered your spouse? Or your adult child?

I would be mad about that. But release is not the binary alternate to execution.
 
I have heard Texas has or had an express lane for capital cases where three eye witnesses were present and witnessed the crime.

Florida put Giuseppe Zangara in the express lane.

Mayor Cermak died 6 March, 1933.

Zangara sat in Old Sparky 15 days later.

Zangara became enraged when he learned no newsreel cameras would be filming his final moments.
 
Death rows are small; they don’t enjoy the economies of scale that come with running a larger jail.
Depends on the facility. Some jails just have a DR wing.
Ancillary to that the magnitude of appeals for a death row case greatly adds to total costs.
The appeals generally use State lawyers, prosecutors etc already on salary. So while there is an opportunity cost, the fact is those personnel are already employed by the state.

All that to say, execution is. 5 really a cost saving, even were one inclined to take cost savings as an acceptable reason to risk killing someone wrongly.
To me it isn’t the cost, it is a deterrent and retributive mechanism.
 
Depends on the facility. Some jails just have a DR wing.
Sure, but I’m talking across the board. It’s also still an overall tiny proportion of the prison population; so execution is neither cheaper than life imprisonment, nor is it much of a financial burden overall. I say this just to say the economics aren’t a justification.

The appeals generally use State lawyers, prosecutors etc already on salary. So while there is an opportunity cost, the fact is those personnel are already employed by the state.
Opportunity cost is still cost. The state could dedicate those lawyers to other matters, or forego the cost of the FTEs entirely. They’re a part of the overall cost either way.

To me it isn’t the cost, it is a deterrent and retributive mechanism.
It’s not the cost to me either; I was explaining why I’m not persuaded by it.

I have no philosophical objection to capital punishment in certain limited circumstances. I just don’t trust that anyone has the flawless justice system necessary to be entrusted with that since it’s utterly irrevocable if ‘the system’ still screws up. Which as we all know it can and does.
 
Most murders IIRC are heat of the moment - a fight that got out of hand or a spouse catches the other in a "compromising situation" and loses it.

The ones that are premeditated OR the serial killers are actually rarer than we think - I am sure the cops here will set me straight if I'm wrong.
 
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